Apple Granted Access to Unreleased Samsung Hardware in Patent Suit

[bikemonkey]

Some of you are sooo funny. I had a PDA that had a home button, Apple copied that.

I don't know if I'm wasting my time here (probably), but you really don't get it. But at the same time I don't think you're trolling. Taking your particular example, Apple aren't suing Samsung just over the 'Home' button alone. Although, in this category of device, they actually implemented a unique approach for a 'Home' button.

Having a single button on the face of a device dramatically changes the user-interface and interaction with a device. By having a singular, prominent button on the face of a device you are immediately promoting its importance, and this will also have an affect on how the software operates. AFAIK, most (if not all) phones before the iPhone had at least 2 buttons on the face - one to make calls, and another to end them. More often than not they had a couple more too. On the iPhone you just have one physical button on the front and I would argue that this is a distinct feature of the iPhone (and iPad).

But it's not just because there is a button on the front. It's also the size of the button, the shape of the button and the button's placement, which must all be considered relative to the rest of the phone. Granted, Samsung's implementation on the S9000 isn't an _exact_ copy, but it's pretty close. A little too close to be called a coincidence.

However, if this was all that Samsung had done I doubt Apple would be taking them to court. As it stands Samsung have copied/borrowed a few more ideas from the iPhone with their S9000:

- The size and shape of the device
- The size/thickness of the bezel relative to the body of the phone
- The radius of the corners of the phone
- The size and shape of the earpiece

So if you take all of these things, and integrate the way Samsung have, then you've got a device very similar to the iPhone. And that's before we even look at the software side of things. You need to educate yourself on a few things here, and if you're really suggesting that the S9000 looks nothing like the iPhone then you're simply deluding yourself. I'm not bashing on Android here, as there are plenty of Android phones which are distinct enough such that they operate and look nothing like the iPhone. The Nexus and Moto Droid are two examples that spring to mind. And with that they are successful devices in their own right - which proves that their is still room for original design.

Some things cannot be changed (like the position of the earpiece and the mic, for example), but some can. Of course there are going to be similarities between devices from different manufacturers, but there is definitely a line between blatant and overzealous copying, and simply improving on an idea or offering an alternative solution. Take it or leave it, but I specialise in design, UX and UI, and I'm simply picking up on these similarities through my understanding of the established principles in these fields. I'm certainly not preaching anything new here. And hopefully you are one more person who can see the wood from the trees.

Of course, the phones aren't the only thing in this suit...

 

[MacinDoc]

sheez, since you brought up IP in your post

http://www.ificlaims.com/IFI 2009 patents 011210 final.htm

Samsung is #2, after IBM. Apple's not on the top 50 list.

That's a specious argument. You can't compare the IP of a company that exclusively makes computers and handheld computing devices with that of a company that makes everything from microchips to kitchen sinks (OK, maybe not kitchen sinks, but dishwashers and refrigerators). As an entire company, Samsung does produce some innovative products, but the same can't be said for its mobile division, which can't even produce packaging and marketing materials that look different from Apple's.

In comparison, Dell, which is the leading retailer of computers in the U.S., and sells a much wider variety of models of computers and devices than Apple, is also not on the list, because like Apple, its IP is limited largely to computing devices.

 

[kockgunner]

Also, while it might not be relevant to this case, I wonder how Apple would react if the situation is reversed and they had to provide access to their unreleased hardware.

They would show prototypes of the original iPhone and it would fool people into thinking they are future products.

Seriously though, can't they just make some fake phones and call it an unreleased product?

 

[faroZ06]

You'd have to be pretty close to blind if I can't see the resemblance Samsung has to Apple. I hope that Apple win this case, they worked so hard to design the perfect device; and they did! It sickens me to see cheap **** companies ripping off Apple's hard work.

They get what they deserve anyway, the Apple knockoffs never win
Glad to see Apple is finally suing though.

 

[faroZ06]

They would show prototypes of the original iPhone and it would fool people into thinking they are future products.

Seriously though, can't they just make some fake phones and call it an unreleased product?

Yeah, they could just give Apple a random clump of dirt and say that it's an unreleased phone

 

[kiranmk2]

I don't know if I'm wasting my time here (probably), but you really don't get it. But at the same time I don't think you're trolling. Taking your particular example, Apple aren't suing Samsung just over the 'Home' button alone. Although, in this category of device, they actually implemented a unique approach for a 'Home' button.

Having a single button on the face of a device dramatically changes the user-interface and interaction with a device. By having a singular, prominent button on the face of a device you are immediately promoting its importance, and this will also have an affect on how the software operates. AFAIK, most (if not all) phones before the iPhone had at least 2 buttons on the face - one to make calls, and another to end them. More often than not they had a couple more too. On the iPhone you just have one physical button on the front and I would argue that this is a distinct feature of the iPhone (and iPad).

But it's not just because there is a button on the front. It's also the size of the button, the shape of the button and the button's placement, which must all be considered relative to the rest of the phone. Granted, Samsung's implementation on the S9000 isn't an _exact_ copy, but it's pretty close. A little too close to be called a coincidence.

However, if this was all that Samsung had done I doubt Apple would be taking them to court. As it stands Samsung have copied/borrowed a few more ideas from the iPhone with their S9000:

- The size and shape of the device
- The size/thickness of the bezel relative to the body of the phone
- The radius of the corners of the phone
- The size and shape of the earpiece

So if you take all of these things, and integrate the way Samsung have, then you've got a device very similar to the iPhone. And that's before we even look at the software side of things. You need to educate yourself on a few things here, and if you're really suggesting that the S9000 looks nothing like the iPhone then you're simply deluding yourself. I'm not bashing on Android here, as there are plenty of Android phones which are distinct enough such that they operate and look nothing like the iPhone. The Nexus and Moto Droid are two examples that spring to mind. And with that they are successful devices in their own right - which proves that their is still room for original design.

Some things cannot be changed (like the position of the earpiece and the mic, for example), but some can. Of course there are going to be similarities between devices from different manufacturers, but there is definitely a line between blatant and overzealous copying, and simply improving on an idea or offering an alternative solution. Take it or leave it, but I specialise in design, UX and UI, and I'm simply picking up on these similarities through my understanding of the established principles in these fields. I'm certainly not preaching anything new here. And hopefully you are one more person who can see the wood from the trees.

Of course, the phones aren't the only thing in this suit...

^This.

This has absolutely nothing to do with patents - you can't patent a look or feel. Instead you protect it with an "industrial design right." Yes phones had touchscreens, grids and home buttons before but as has been pointed out, no phone combined them in such a way as the iPhone. Again, as has been mentioned, the streamlined button UI (i.e. one singular button on the front of the phone) is very distinctive and was something completely new to the market. Look at the metal rim around the bezel, look at the home screen on the S2. It may turn out that it wasn't intentional, but that won't matter in the court. Unless Samsung can prove that they had this design on the drawing board before the iOS products came out the court can block their release.

 

[lilo777]

^This.

This has absolutely nothing to do with patents - you can't patent a look or feel. Instead you protect it with an "industrial design right." Yes phones had touchscreens, grids and home buttons before but as has been pointed out, no phone combined them in such a way as the iPhone. Again, as has been mentioned, the streamlined button UI (i.e. one singular button on the front of the phone) is very distinctive and was something completely new to the market. Look at the metal rim around the bezel, look at the home screen on the S2. It may turn out that it wasn't intentional, but that won't matter in the court. Unless Samsung can prove that they had this design on the drawing board before the iOS products came out the court can block their release.

Samsung Android phones have three or four buttons. This alone tells us that Apple claim is bogus.

 

[gorgeousninja]

Some of you are sooo funny. I had a PDA that had a home button, Apple copied that. It also had a screen that you could touch, Apple copied that. It had a power button.... yep, you guessed it Apple copied it.

Apple is rediculous and I hope they lose every BS lawsuit they file. (As is my hope with any BS lawsuit.)

It was probably also a gross mish-mash of usability and form... Apple didn't copy that.
(oh and the term PDA.... that was Apple).

keep up the good work.. eh?

 

[erzhik]

wait wait wait. So the judge told Samsung to give up unreleased hardware, which basically means giving up company internal secrets. How the hell is that fair? I would understand if Samsung was told to show unreleased hardware to court, but Apple?

I am sure if apple was to be told to give up some unreleased hardware, many of you here will call it unfair and start complaining.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

wait wait wait. So the judge told Samsung to give up unreleased hardware, which basically means giving up company internal secrets. How the hell is that fair? I would understand if Samsung was told to show unreleased hardware to court, but Apple?

I am sure if apple was to be told to give up some unreleased hardware, many of you here will call it unfair and start complaining.

you should read it and understand that the title is VERY VERY miss leading.
All Apple really gets pretty much mock ups with no hardware inside of them. You know those annoying cheap feeling phone phones you see at stores that are just display models. That is all Apple is really getting.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

^This.

This has absolutely nothing to do with patents - you can't patent a look or feel. Instead you protect it with an "industrial design right." Yes phones had touchscreens, grids and home buttons before but as has been pointed out, no phone combined them in such a way as the iPhone. Again, as has been mentioned, the streamlined button UI (i.e. one singular button on the front of the phone) is very distinctive and was something completely new to the market. Look at the metal rim around the bezel, look at the home screen on the S2. It may turn out that it wasn't intentional, but that won't matter in the court. Unless Samsung can prove that they had this design on the drawing board before the iOS products came out the court can block their release.

You're not too bright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent

It's a Design Patent for a reason:

In the United States, a design patent is a patent granted on the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (see Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents.

Outside of the US:

A similar concept, a registered design can be obtained in other countries. In Kenya, Japan, South Korea and Hungary, industrial designs are registered after performing an official novelty search. In the countries of the European Community, one needs to only pay an official fee and meet other formal requirements for registration (e.g. Community design at OHIM, Germany, France, Spain).

Take a wild guess where the Lawsuit resides?

A Design Patent is a subtype of a design right, but recognized as a US Patent requiring Apple to defend it or lose it, thus the lawsuit residing in the US.

 

[*LTD*]

Also, while it might not be relevant to this case, I wonder how Apple would react if the situation is reversed and they had to provide access to their unreleased hardware.

Why would this ever happen?

Apple 9 times out of 10 is the one being ripped off left and right by everyone. Samsung happened to get way too brazen.

They should go after HTC next. They already are, actually, though at this point there's no talk of any injunction involved if I recall correctly.

 

[Dammit Cubs]

It's called business.

Agreed. When you are dealing with BILLIONS of BILLIONS of dollars? Everyone would do the exact same thing.

Oh wait, I guess everyone on macrumors is a billionaire and understands how to manage one of the biggest and profitable companies in the world.

 

[kdarling]

Samsung Android phones have three or four buttons. This alone tells us that Apple claim is bogus.

Not to mention that Samsung phones, going back many years, have always had a prominent Home or Fire button.

Coincidentally, last night I was looking at my devices and my first thought was that Android and WP7 manufacturers should always have the Home button shaped and/or placed in such a way that it's easy to find.

So Samsung has just done what makes logical and common sense. Apple thought so too. Having a big home button isn't special or rare or some kind of unique idea. Having one button could be, but Samsung doesn't have just one button.

As I've said before, Apple's unique idea was to use the Home button to make the user abort the current app each time they went to start another one. Other makers used it to push the current app into the background or to freeze it. So you could argue that Apple copied everyone else in iOs 4.0+ as far as Home button design.

A Design Patent is a subtype of a design right, but recognized as a US Patent requiring Apple to defend it or lose it, thus the lawsuit residing in the US.

You're thinking of trademarks, which must be defended or lost. Patents don't have that requirement.

I've even read of a case "where the judge ruled it was reasonable for the patent owner to wait several years until lost profits due to the infringement were severe enough to justify the expense of enforcing the patent in court."

They should go after HTC next. They already are, actually, though at this point there's no talk of any injunction involved if I recall correctly.

I'll be surprised if Apple doesn't try to copy HTC's weather animations and other UI innovations.

 

[diabolic]

I'll be surprised if Apple doesn't try to copy HTC's weather animations and other UI innovations.

I'd put my money on Apple eventually finding a nicer and better way to implement those things.

 

[btallada9870]

Apple innovative in tablet market? Yes I agree.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe samsung is innovative. Just looking at the firm measuring sticks (patents holding, R&D $), you kinda have to agree samsung does innovate. No?

I really am not familiar with the respective timing of the releases of Samsung's products, so if you could please give me an example of a product that Samsung has released that was a major innovation, then I'd love to see it.

Samsung is a huge tech company, and I know they make great parts - but there is just not one product in recent years I can think of the top of my head that has absolutely changed the way I use my technology.

I choose Apple products, and do kind of "look down" on Android, but I respect it for what it is and how the competition does actually make iOS better in the end. All I ever wanted was a touchscreen iPod. When the iPhone was introduced, it took the mobile industry in an entirely new direction. I can remember what phones I was looking at before the iPhone came out - not even close to it. The internet experience was what made the first iPhone, while quite seamlessly integrating my iPod and phone functions.

The one innovation I will not give Apple is the app store as it was something I feel was only introduced due to the demand from consumers. So yes, I think that the only reason Android - and the millions of phones that run it - really only exist in their current form is because of Apple. Almost the same thing with the iPad.

Looking at the mobile and tablet industry, which lets just call the future of computing for the most part, I see Apple's innovations right at the top of my head, and while I believe everything else is a good thing because of Apple's attitude for giving me what they want me to have, rather than what I want. Now, many other phone manufacturers have made devices that yes have a touchscreen and a home button, but, quite frankly, you're blind if you don't see that Samsung's products resemble Apple products the most. So, while I would agree that Samsung is most likely innovative on the parts level of devices, I can't think of any product they've created first that has revolutionized anyone's life.

 

[1nsanity]

Looking at the mobile and tablet industry, which lets just call the future of computing for the most part, I see Apple's innovations right at the top of my head, and while I believe everything else is a good thing because of Apple's attitude for giving me what they want me to have, rather than what I want. Now, many other phone manufacturers have made devices that yes have a touchscreen and a home button, but, quite frankly, you're blind if you don't see that Samsung's products resemble Apple products the most. So, while I would agree that Samsung is most likely innovative on the parts level of devices, I can't think of any product they've created first that has revolutionized anyone's life.

The problem is that you are looking only at product innovation. You forget the importance of process innovation, which in Samsung's case has had a big impact. Innovation is outside-in, and in order to remain competitive, companies such as Samsung and Apple have developed 'over-time' core competencies and competitive assets, mainly processes that cannot be emulated or copied easily.

I find it interesting how you discard several of Samsung's innovation, only to put forward a product largely composed of those individual innovations you've just discarded.

You are entitled to an opinion and that is not what I try to debacle. I simply thought your points of reference to Samsung's lack of proper innovation in comparison to that of Apple didn't hold.

Samsung invest a lot more than Apple in R & D. As an example, Samsung as also redefined accepted memory growth standards and they are constantly working towards new products. If it wasn't for many of Samsung's innovative products, the company's insight and strategic intent developped over time, wouldn't have made all of this(e.g. iPhone) possible in the first place.

 

[johncarync]

Apple, I think you owe Samsung an apology. Samsung has their own R&D and Design departments. They don't need you!

 

[jonomo]

I'm glad Apple is doing this... I use to work at Samsung Electronics and I gotta tell you, their R&D department has more dissected products from other companies than their own... This was before the iPhone days, so I imagine now, it's just filled with Apple products... they do not know how to innovate, they just know how to imitate (to their respects, they can imitate much quicker than their competitors)...

Also, some argue that Samsung products don't sell, but that's only the case in the US.. in Korea, they sell well.. and Samsung uses very under handed techniques to keep Apple out of their main market, Korea.. I lived there through the launch of iPhone, and Samsung kept the iPhone out of the market for almost 2 years while they tried to catch up, which eventually led to the first Galaxy phone... it was total junk.. while it looked like an iPhone, they totallyl missed the boat on the UI and applications.. and now they're forced to go with Andriod...

Samsung Electronics is total junk... they survive because they take advantage of their local market in Korea.. ripping off their consumers with high priced electronics that they pretty much just give away in the States... and they disenfranchise local consumers by blocking innovative products made by their competitors...

 

[JAT]

Seems fitting to mention that one of the Tabs is now onsale at woot! for Wed.

 

[Lunarstone]

This is great! I can't wait for Samusung to lose this case. Isn't obvious that the interface is so similar to Apple's products? The only difference is the line of dots that are at the bottom for iOS now shifted to the top for Samsung.

You can't just make 1 minor difference and expect to get away with copyright infringement. You wanna copy, at least do it right.

 

[JAT]

I'd put my money on Apple eventually finding a nicer and better way to implement those things.

It would certainly be nice if they would pay attention to the Weather app for a minute or 2. They haven't updated it since before the iPhone came out.

 

[Lunarstone]

When I got the Samsung F480i, I showed my friend the phone and guess what? He was shocked! The F480i and the iPhone looked SO similar! Both had the line of dots to show when moving between panes, the F480i had 1 speaker and 1 home button. The difference was that the 1 speaker in front was same size as the home button on the iPhone. Likewise, the home button for the F480i was same size as the speaker on the iPhone.

 

[lilo777]

This is great! I can't wait for Samusung to lose this case. Isn't obvious that the interface is so similar to Apple's products? The only difference is the line of dots that are at the bottom for iOS now shifted to the top for Samsung.

You can't just make 1 minor difference and expect to get away with copyright infringement. You wanna copy, at least do it right.

That's exactly what Apple thought when they sued Microsoft. And they lost. Besides, nobody buys Galaxy phones because of TouchWiz. If anything, people want something less boring than iPhone icon grids.

 

[Lunarstone]

That's exactly what Apple thought when they sued Microsoft. And they lost. Besides, nobody buys Galaxy phones because of TouchWiz. If anything, people want something less boring than iPhone icon grids.

Apple sued Microsoft? I'm not in the know. Please enlighten? Thanks!

Forgive me, but so what if nobody buys Galaxy phones? Fact still remains that Samsung has copied interface designs for both hardware and software, not just from Apple but other companies too. Not only do they copy, they also fail at copying.