Apple Has Outright Ownership of Nortel's LTE (4G) Patents?

[cmaier]

When you bid on something on ebay, for instance, would you be the person bidding at $300, or the person bidding $301? Most people understand this concept of overbidding and even $1 over isn't enough anymore. That is why Google bid odd numbers; $314.15 compatible to this example. It was a [geeky] strategy, one that seems to be lost on a few of you.

Since everyone knew everyone else's bids and was allowed to respond, your argument makes no sense. I bid $300. Google bids $314.15. I bid $315 and give Google a quizzical look. Google bids $391.14. I bid $400 and slap Google upside the head.

How, exactly, does bidding physical constants help them?

 

[bassboat]

Apple Bashers

Apple Bashers: Have you ever considered what your cell phone would be like today had it not been for Apple? ALL of the rest of the manufacturers were lazy and in bed with the carriers. Talk about control, you can thank Verizon for their heavy handed control of wanting a piece of every action on the cell phone, hence curtailing the many different apps that we would have been denied had it not been for Jobs. AT&T? All they want to do is sell crappy service at a premium price. Apple may not have the fastest phone or the absolute best display or some other perceived best but they make products that are easy to work, are sexy, and that people work. Go ahead and bash Apple but every time taht you bash them you simply look envious and stupid.

 

[lilo777]

Apple Bashers: Have you ever considered what your cell phone would be like today had it not been for Apple? ALL of the rest of the manufacturers were lazy and in bed with the carriers. Talk about control, you can thank Verizon for their heavy handed control of wanting a piece of every action on the cell phone, hence curtailing the many different apps that we would have been denied had it not been for Jobs. AT&T? All they want to do is sell crappy service at a premium price. Apple may not have the fastest phone or the absolute best display or some other perceived best but they make products that are easy to work, are sexy, and that people work. Go ahead and bash Apple but every time taht you bash them you simply look envious and stupid.

The irony is too thick here

 

[ThisIsNotMe]

Not going to happen. It would be against the law, it would be against reality, and it would be against Apple's company spirit to operate in this way. Obviously since Google bid $4 billion and Apple and others bid $4.5 billion, you can expect that Android manufacturers will be hundreds of millions in license fees. Just as Apple and RIM would have been paying hundreds of millions in license fees if they hadn't won.

Except for the fact that Android manufacturers don't have the margins to pay hundreds of millions in licensing fees.

 

[FakeWozniak]

All this crap about patents and lawsuits over these smartphones makes me want to do one thing...

Go back to a normal cell phone.

I don't care for the patents/lawsuit stuff either, but I don't want to go back to just a telephone.

I am sure there are many that would agree this is a big industry game at this point. Could you imagine a startup trying to make the iPhone back in 2007? A startup could not have done what Apple did unless they had a few billion laying around. The moment the industry recognizes a threat from a startup, the lawsuits begin and the startups turns into shutdowns.

Only big companies can afford the $1-2B USD to buy technology like this. I believe we would have more innovation if small companies could play in the game too. The industry is only as innovative as Apple, Google, HP, HTC, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, RIM, Samsung, etc. are themselves. These players all seem to work out licensing deals in the end, so the patents don't really affect the other big players; it only seems to crystallize the players. It's no surprise how the entrenched players in the industry were shaken up and angered when Apple and Google threw the balance off.

Imagine if we did away with patents for a moment... Would Apple still be doing well? I think so. At this point there are already 100 models of smart phones on the market (even doing multi-touch without a license), but the iPhone is still king of the hill. It's not what the iPhone does, but how Apple does it. The execution of the product... design, quality, usability, etc. These are all art, not science. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the companies listed above weren't displaced by Chinese iPhone counterfeiters.

 

[marksman]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Of all the companies on the list and going after the patents the one that I wanted to own them the least was Apple. Reason being is Apple has a long history of not licencing out patents and doing damage long term but it could be after talks with the DOJ Apple could easily already be required to licence them out at a set rate and my guess what it is currently before they were sold and required to do it for who ever request them at that same rate.

Not Apple's style to do that. This strikes me as a defensive purchase. This is how it would go:

Competitor: "Aha! Pay up, Apple. We own these patents that cover the iPhone!"

Apple: "Don't think so. We own the LTE patents. Nice LTE phone you have there, shame if anything were to happen to it."

Competitor: "Never mind."

Chances are legally Apple can not do it. I would not be surpised if Apple has some pretty stick guide lines it agree to with the DOJ. Going against it would mean some pretty heavy fines.

Could you refrain from posting in any legal related threads?

 

[firewood]

Since everyone knew everyone else's bids and was allowed to respond, your argument makes no sense. I bid $300. Google bids $314.15. I bid $315 and give Google a quizzical look. Google bids $391.14. I bid $400 and slap Google upside the head.

How, exactly, does bidding physical constants help them?

Strange looking numbers do help. You boss likely secretly authorized you to bid up to some round number like $310 or $320. A weird number bid is less likely to be just under your authorized amount enabling you to immediately top their bid.

 

[cmaier]

Strange looking numbers do help. You boss likely secretly authorized you to bid up to some round number like $310 or $320. A weird number bid is less likely to be just under your authorized amount enabling you to immediately top their bid.

Nonsense. If you were authorized to bit $320, bidding $310 works as well as $314.16.

The idea that there was some strategic benefit from bidding like that is nonsense.

 

[*LTD*]

Except for the fact that Android manufacturers don't have the margins to pay hundreds of millions in licensing fees.

Interesting point.

 

[charlituna]

How strange.

Not really. Apparently this is not unlike the whole LodSys thing. Apple was supposedly one of several companies that paid part of the buying costs for a pack of licenses in exchange for a lifetime license for Apple and (they claim) their partners. But they didn't own the patents which were sold to LodSys. but LodSys doesn't want to honor the original agreement about the partners issue.

It seems this sort of thing happens all the time when one company doesn't have quite enough money or want to spend it.

I'm personally hoping that they are delaying the iPhone 5 until september so that they can add LTE support and att has time to roll out the service.

Even if ATT rolls out whatever they are planning by September it won't be vast enough to be worth it to Apple to support it in the iphone 5. Which actually has nada to do with the delay. They were forced to delay by the March Earthquake.

 

[RalfTheDog]

Nonsense. If you were authorized to bit $320, bidding $310 works as well as $314.16.

The idea that there was some strategic benefit from bidding like that is nonsense.

It has the advantage of being fun. Fun is always a good strategy.

 

[charlituna]

I'm a fan of Apple, but I think it's pathetic that Apple (or Google) would buy patents to "hobble" their biggest competitor.

THe only person making that claim is some tech blogger who may or may not know what he's talking about

I wonder if Apple would actually make other manufacturers license LTE. I'm not sure how good that would be.

Of course they will. That's how the game works. The question to ponder is if Apple will be dicks about it and try to charge some crazy terms for those that weren't part of the buying group.

Also keep in mind the FTC and DOJ vetted all the players in this fight and it is possible that they "approved" each bidder on the condition that they must legally license said patents or face serious issues (remember these two groups are the anti-trust etc folks they can have products banned and so on)

Let's not forget, if Apple hadn't developed the iPhone - for years in secrecy, this form factor phone wouldn't exist. If Apple hadn't done the same with the iPad, tablets wouldn't exist.

I have to agree and disagree with you. in part because it seems like you are putting too much weight on the secrecy issue. Not to mention that you make it sound like Apple has been working on this for decades when really the project started in like 2003. And there were touch based phones (granted not multi-touch) and tablets before the iphone and ipad.

But I do agree with you that without someone having some serious brass ones to go out large and publicly like Apple did, we probably wouldn't be where we are at this time. And who knows, perhaps one day we'll read some interview where Jobs admits that he released the iphone at that particular moment because he was facing the real chance he might die and he wanted to go out with a bang and not a whimper and it seemed like the best way to do it.

Apple hobble Android?... What do you think Google was trying to do to Apple with a bid of there own? As sad as it seems this is a form competition.

True but there is an implication in the statement that doesn't make Apple look so good. Basically the implication that Apple wanted control so they could refuse to let Google license the tech and sue them if they tried without a license. Whereas Google might have wanted it to make their stuff before and win over iOS in a 'fair fight'.

This implication is likely why the DOJ/FTC stepped in and why they may have warned every company that refusing to play with folks would be seen as an anti-trust move and get them in serious water. Double since they were warned ahead of time so they can't claim they assumed it was okay

 

[gkpm]

It has the advantage of being fun. Fun is always a good strategy.

Ah yes, fun is really the best option in financial circles, sure the people at the auction were very amused. That's probably why they all queued up to join Google in a consortium.. oh wait.

Maybe the Federal Reserve can start setting interest rates based on "funny" numbers too.

 

[gnasher729]

Except for the fact that Android manufacturers don't have the margins to pay hundreds of millions in licensing fees.

Google was willing to spend four thousand million dollars for the patent package. So there is plenty of money there to pay for license fees.

Not really. Apparently this is not unlike the whole LodSys thing. Apple was supposedly one of several companies that paid part of the buying costs for a pack of licenses in exchange for a lifetime license for Apple and (they claim) their partners. But they didn't own the patents which were sold to LodSys. but LodSys doesn't want to honor the original agreement about the partners issue.

In the Lodsys case, Apple's argument is not that the license applies to Apple's partners. Their argument is that all the actions covered by Lodsys' patents are in fact done by Apple and nobody else, therefore only Apple needs a license.

 

[marksman]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Let's not forget, if Apple hadn't developed the iPhone - for years in secrecy, this form factor phone wouldn't exist. If Apple hadn't done the same with the iPad, tablets wouldn't exist.

Samsung, etc, wouldn't know what to do. There'd be nothing to copy.

I can't believe you actually typed this drivel.
The "form factor" existed already.

As for the LTE patents, if they are part of an industry standard, Apple has to license them to everyone who requests it.
Ask Nokia about their GSM patents.


EDIT: Nice down votes.... guess the truth hurts.

Really? Full screen touch screen w these dimensions existed before the iPhone?

 

[farmboy]

Except for the fact that Android manufacturers don't have the margins to pay hundreds of millions in licensing fees.

The license fee could be assessed per unit made or sold as well, annual amount, or some combination.

 

[marksman]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Ya.....being the most innovative culture this planet has ever seen is a real negative.

(Hint: Out patent system is why America is the most innovative culture this planet has ever seen)

I want to see proof that "America is the most innovative culture this planet has ever seen". Otherwise I call that total BS. I'm sure per capita countries like Australia and the UK are just as innovative. If not more so.

So provide some facts before you blurt out stuff like that.

Not even close.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Even if ATT rolls out whatever they are planning by September it won't be vast enough to be worth it to Apple to support it in the iphone 5. Which actually has nada to do with the delay. They were forced to delay by the March Earthquake.

att is not the only carrier of the iPhone, and vzw will have a very solid LTE footprint by september. I'm not saying that's why they delayed the phone, I said I hope that it is the reason, although still probably unlikely.

And where is your source that they had to delay the iphone because of the earthquake? That sounds like non-sense to me...

 

[tinman0]

That is assuming they did not already make an agreement with Nortel and I believe that part of the sell required the one who bought the patents to honor any agreements already in place by Nortel.


So in other words it is safe to say that it will not effect most of them as chances are really good they already had agreements in place before hand. Samsung and HTC both have LTE phones already out in the market so they have to already have an agreement in place.

Doesn't matter if they had agreements in place, they are ponying up cash to Apple either way.

My original post still stands, have a read of it some time.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I'm a fan of Apple, but I think it's pathetic that Apple (or Google) would buy patents to "hobble" their biggest competitor. The iPhone is a better phone because of the competition with Android. I have no problems with them protecting their own intellectual property like they are doing with Samsung and their blatant ripoff of the iPhone. But to buy patents for the sole purpose of hurting the competition is anti-competitive, and wrong IMO.

I do realize that in the end, it's not really Apple's fault and that they are just playing by the rules of the game. If they hadn't ponied up the $2B, then Google would have done the same to "hobble" Apple. So I don't blame Apple entirely, and instead blame the entire environment created by the awful existing system. But in the end, the consumers lose, which sucks.

What do you think Edison did for decades? GE, IBM, HP and more have all done it.

Apple didn't buy patents to keep the innovation from evolving, but they bought patents knowing they will have a strategic advantage over their competition [Google Android] and will force Google to invest in R&D to come up with novel ways to match the competition.

 

[cmaier]

Doesn't matter if they had agreements in place, they are ponying up cash to Apple either way.

My original post still stands, have a read of it some time.

Of course it matters. If a company has a license to patents, they are licensed even if the patents are sold to another party. (Unless the patent license specifically terminated the license in such a situation, but such a license would be exceptionally uncommon).

 

[mdriftmeyer]

When you bid on something on ebay, for instance, would you be the person bidding at $300, or the person bidding $301? Most people understand this concept of overbidding and even $1 over isn't enough anymore. That is why Google bid odd numbers; $314.15 compatible to this example. It was a [geeky] strategy, one that seems to be lost on a few of you.

Yes, lets all bid like we're on the Price is Right. ``What was the last bid? $300. I'll bid $301!''

They are not getting the patents to hobble their competitors. They need the patents as protection for their own products and will license the patents.

They won't license non-LTE patents to Google. They won't be required to do so. They will license LTE as the FCC will require it. Google will have to innovate on those non-LTE patents in novel ways producing their own patents or face legal action.

 

[swagi]

Apple Bashers: Have you ever considered what your cell phone would be like today had it not been for Apple? ALL of the rest of the manufacturers were lazy and in bed with the carriers. Talk about control, you can thank Verizon for their heavy handed control of wanting a piece of every action on the cell phone, hence curtailing the many different apps that we would have been denied had it not been for Jobs. AT&T? All they want to do is sell crappy service at a premium price. Apple may not have the fastest phone or the absolute best display or some other perceived best but they make products that are easy to work, are sexy, and that people work. Go ahead and bash Apple but every time taht you bash them you simply look envious and stupid.

Actually quite the same as ever. Or to paraphrase your post...

Apple Fanbois: Have you ever considered reading coverage about the Mobile World Conference in Barcelona? You know, the one that Apple so happily dismisses. The one were all major players on the planet show real smartphones and not some stylish AngryBirds stuff. Come one - Zynga a presenter at WWDC - need I say more. "You now get push notification, when your crops are ready to harvest!" Great. Can't live without it!

Americans: Have you ever considered that the world couldn't laugh as hard as it should when your majesty Steve Jobs went on stage and said EDGE is sufficient? FWIW there ARE LTE phones out there. Just not in the US, as being a mobile carrier in the US must be a real PITA. Only country worse will be Australia or Canada. Lots of white spots on the map.

"My Apple product XYZ is the sexiest thing on earth"-crowd: Yeah. Go for it, fashion victim.

 

[cmaier]

Actually quite the same as ever. Or to paraphrase your post...

Apple Fanbois: Have you ever considered reading coverage about the Mobile World Conference in Barcelona? You know, the one that Apple so happily dismisses. The one were all major players on the planet show real smartphones and not some stylish AngryBirds stuff. Come one - Zynga a presenter at WWDC - need I say more. "You now get push notification, when your crops are ready to harvest!" Great. Can't live without it!

Americans: Have you ever considered that the world couldn't laugh as hard as it should when your majesty Steve Jobs went on stage and said EDGE is sufficient? FWIW there ARE LTE phones out there. Just not in the US, as being a mobile carrier in the US must be a real PITA. Only country worse will be Australia or Canada. Lots of white spots on the map.

"My Apple product XYZ is the sexiest thing on earth"-crowd: Yeah. Go for it, fashion victim.

Sadly in America we don't have off on Fridays to stay home and battery condition battery-sapping LTE phones. We're too busy inventing things and saving the world from dictators.

What's a "barcelona?" Does it taste better with ketchup?

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Yes, lets all bid like we're on the Price is Right. ``What was the last bid? $300. I'll bid $301!''

My favorit was one time I saw the 1-4 be bid. Talk about a sure fired win for the 4th guy.