Apple Hit With Tax Lobbying Protest, Italian Investigation Into AppleCare Offerings

[TheralSadurns]

Concerning Warranty and AppleCare

Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
What IS required is a two year defects liability. But what does that mean?

For normal consumers this means:
In the first 90 days after purchasing a computer you will get a replacement for ANY defect, as it is assumed that whatever you bought was defective WHEN you bought it. In this case APPLE would have to prove otherwise (i.e. you dropped the Book on the floor etc....)

AFTER these 90 days, YOU have to prove that the defect was already present THE MOMENT you BOUGHT the device. For this you need an expert to certify this, which of course is really never possible.
'Hey... my display doesn't work... and um... it never really did!' <-- yeah SURE.
The only thing to get thru with it (except for very rare singular instances) is if a defect reaches class-action status. Which would sort of prove that the defect was already present when bought.

What does THAT then mean?
The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

So really... what is the deal here ?!

 

[42streetsdown]

Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

the problem i think is that the loop holes exist because of lobbying from corporations. so in a way it is the companies fault

 

[econgeek]

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

The Government made the tax law. Apple is complying with it. This means they are keeping money from business operated overseas overseas since the government wants a cut of it if they repatriate it, even though it was earned over seas--- and taxes were paid overseas.

US Uncut is just trying to take the focus off of the massive overspending going on at the federal government level.

Remember until 1915, there was no federal income tax, and the government was able to operate just fine.

It is not apple's fault that the past 40 years of control by republicans and democrats, neither party has been able to get the federal government to be fiscally irresponsible.

 

[RichardBeer]

As I understand it, Apple Care offers three years of protection. However the fact that you can only buy Apple Care within a certain period of purchase means that you only really get two years extended, this I think is a rip off, especially considering how much Apple Care costs.

I may not understand how it works but that's how it seems to me.

Well the governments are ones to talk, tax is just their way of stealing the money from the producer by coercion and then pouring it down a drain. I'd rather Apple withhold tax and use it to produce products than fork it over to a body who helped create a financial mess in the first place..

 

[mentholiptus]

You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

I could be wrong, and I'm not condoning tax dodging (especially by a company valued at $302 billion), but I thought this group wanted to bring the money back into the US tax free and in return they would spend all that money on creating new jobs within their companies and growing their businesses here in the U.S..

If these companies kept their word, then I'd rather this cash wound up in the pockets of college grads and unemployed americans rather than bailing out banks or paying our politicians pensions, etc.

 

[Michael73]

I wish Apple would make AppleCare more simple by doing this...

If I buy an Apple product and AppleCare at the same time, either make AppleCare cheaper to account for the overlapping time or reduce the initial price of the product.

If I buy an Apple product and then buy AppleCare at a later date, either pro-rate the price of AppleCare to account for the overlap or offer the buyer an apple or iTunes gift card.

In all the cases except where the initial product warranty and AppleCare completely overlap, I think this would satisfy the Italians. In the cases where there is complete overlap, no AppleCare should be sold.

 

[econgeek]

Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.

Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?

If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.

These kinds of anti-business policies just result in even MORE lost jobs as companies relocate.... and you can't blame them.

It's not as if the federal government is being responsible with its spending, or has been in the past 40 years.

 

[SimonTheSoundMa]

We get 6 years in the England and Wales under the Sales of Goods Act. Not quite a guarantee, but a product in this time has to be "durable" and "of satisfactory quality". It's a little wish-washy, and doesn't mean you will get it fixed for free in all cases, but a 2.5 year old MBP, which has a faulty IC on the logicboard, shouldn't break for example. Parts like batteries have a shorter life so if it is 2 years old it may not get repaired. Same is with a washing machine that is 1.5 years old, you again can argue it wasn't durable as a washing machine should be, you expect them to last much longer. First 6 months it is up to the retailer to prove it's your fault (like physical damage), after that the onus is on the customer. Most cases they can be tracked back to a manufacturing fault or design flaw. Warranty's are not worth it, most people never require a repair, and those that do Sales of Goods Act may come in to play anyway.

My 4 year old iMac failed, Apple did fix it for free once I said they shouldn't break like that.

Really worth a read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/jun/01/yourrights.legal4

 

[iStudentUK]

In the first 90 days after purchasing a computer...

It is actually 6 months. For the first 6 months the burden of proof is on the seller to prove the user didn't damage the product, after 6 months it reverses.

The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

Actually the law is quite useful. It depends on the country within the EU as laws are implemented slightly differently. However, in the UK I don't normally bother with extended warranties as the law is very useful.

The "at time of delivery" is not a big issue. Say my MacBook has a dodgy wire inside it, and it becomes detached a year later. The fault is the lose wire which was there all along, the detachment is just the manifestation. Remember you only have to prove "on balance" in most countries, so 51% will do. Some people I know have had success taking various companies to court over faulty goods.

The problem is people thinking this law says "all goods have a 2 year warranty". What is actually says is all goods must be "fit for purpose" and if an indication that they are not fit for purposes arises a consumer cannot be prevented from trying to make a claim in the first 2 years. Basically the 2 years is a statute of limitations (thankfully in the UK it is 6 years!).

 

[chaosbunny]

the problem i think is that the loop holes exist because of lobbying from corporations. so in a way it is the companies fault

Sure, who pays for the election campaigns? So whom does a politician serve?

 

[TWSS37]

sure, if you want $2000 base-model iMacs.

Right, because the current pricing models are so affordable!

 

[benpatient]

There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

The problem is that Apple can and will spend millions of dollars lobbying (buying) congress to make sure that the tax code contains the loopholes they need to, as you put it, "avoid" taxes. This is how oil companies end up with tax credits and GE ends up owing negative dollars in taxes. Corporate lobbyists write the bills and give them to the congresspeople, who "introduce" them as written, and vote those bills into law. unless someone raises too much stink about it—Then they just add the bill to another law that is too important to vote against.

The entire system is broken, and it comes down to this concept that corporations are people and that money is speech. Those may be, aside from the dred scott case, the two worst decisions the supreme court has ever made.

Saying "they're not technically breaking the laws" is absurd. They wrote the laws in the first place.

 

[Macsterguy]

There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

Well said... I would only add that Tax Evasion is Treason and any U.S. company found to be doing so should be kicked out of our Country along with all sales of their products... They will then beg to come back and pay taxes...

 

[LowKeyed]

Well, that's the way the overcomplicated tax system is supposed to work. Big corporation pay peanuts while the majority is payed by the middle class and small companies.

Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

 

[SeattleMoose]

But But But....

I thought anyone who would participate in a "dance in" HAD to be a mac owner...

 

[doctor-don]

In the US we have the 14, 60, or 90 day warranty policies. I really like Europes' 1 year policies . Plus a 2 year extended. Once the 3 years are over you get a new lappy.

Most of my electronics have one-year warranties. If I buy them using my VISA card, that is extended to two years.

As for taxes, if I can't do sketchy things to dodge em, neither should Apple.

If you were a business, you would be able to 'dodge' taxes by taking advantage of loopholes in the tax laws.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been pointing out for ages that EU law offers protection to consumers that can make AppleCare unnecessary in some circumstances. Glad to see the Italians may be addressing this. However, EU law doesn't mandate a 2 year warranty, it is a bit more complex than that. People in the EU should not assume that all electronics they buy are automatically covered for 2 years. It is about understanding the subtle difference between the legal coverage and AppleCare and deciding if the extra money is worth it.

Pointing out for AGES? Two years?

There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

Lobbyists in D.C. have paid for the creation of those tax loopholes for the benefit of the companies they represent. Our tax code is so convoluted that educated people can no longer do their own taxes.

Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

The Congress doesn't have the balls to revise the tax laws. They would lose those payoffs ... um, contributions ... from big business.

 

[doctor-don]

Well said... I would only add that Tax Evasion is Treason and any U.S. company found to be doing so should be kicked out of our Country along with all sales of their products... They will then beg to come back and pay taxes...

Spammers: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

 

[DonSqueak]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been pointing out for ages that EU law offers protection to consumers that can make AppleCare unnecessary in some circumstances. Glad to see the Italians may be addressing this. However, EU law doesn't mandate a 2 year warranty, it is a bit more complex than that. People in the EU should not assume that all electronics they buy are automatically covered for 2 years. It is about understanding the subtle difference between the legal coverage and AppleCare and deciding if the extra money is worth it.

It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

 

[MacNewsFix]

What I would like to see.....

....is some of that offshore money come back into the United States.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/blogs/pre...ush-Washington-for-Tax-Holiday-116429449.html

It is fascinating to see how companies respond to taxes. In Illinois, the corporate tax was recently raised quite a bit with the move spearheaded by the governor. Lots of chest pounding and theater. "We're going to make these corporations pay!" Immediately, governors from all over the country began running full page ads in Illinois newspapers inviting Illinois based companies to move to their much more tax friendly states. In the end, the governor had to go around to all the big boys (ex. Sears, Motorola, Boeing,...,...,etc) and give them individual tax deals. What happens to the mid-sized and little guys without the clout? Screwed.

 

[CindyRed]

Small Hands make iPods better

I love that fact that lax labor laws and factory cities keep my iPod in a nice affordable under $200 range. Selling those iPods to those same factory workers is also a great way to make your magic numbers towards per unit cost proliferation, but c'mon, Apple! Pay dem taxes like the rest of us, no matter where that profit is made. It's enough that dey took'er jobs!

 

[jav6454]

If I pay taxes and can't avoid them, so should Apple. They are not special to deserve tax cuts.

 

[LowKeyed]

It's true Apple care here in Europe always confused me since we are supposed to have 2 years standard warranty and not just a Year... What Apple employees claim when asked is that the standard warranty is indeed 2 years but after a year without Apple Care the warranty is only valid for certain types of malfunctions although they don't specify which...
While Apple is supposed to cover most things I m not really sure what the standard warranty covers but I guess it should be similar right?

I don't know what laws exist in europe with regard to warranties, but since AppleCare is not a warranty i don't see how they apply. Keep in mind that AppleCare is an extended service plan which legally makes a huge difference, even here in the US. AppleCare Service doesn't overlap with any warranty coverage. AppleCare provides phone support in the first year of ownership after the first 90 days and after the first year it add additional support/service for hardware and software issues that is similar to what would be covered by a warranty.

 

[ThatsMeRight]

I live in Denmark, and at least here it's like this.
They need to cover our products for 2 years, however, if the problem that might occur with our product is due to "user error" (i.e. negligence etc.) they don't have to, so I believe yeah, we got 2 years of warranty standard, but convincing the manufacturers that the error is a manufacturing related issue and not a user created one, that becomes hard after a few months. - Some companies are way harder than others to convince.

In Europe the minimum actually really is 2 years but every country can change it a bit. Most countries indeed say what you do: in the first 6 months an error occures, the user has to prove nothing. In the following 18 months you must prove it's not your fault (for example, if your TV suddenly stops working within 5 months after purchase, they must exchange it for a new one without you proving anything. If it breaks down in 12 months, than you have to prove it's not your fault (which is easy: there's no water damage, no crack or something like that).

And like in The Netherlands, no real expiring date is mentioned in the Law but you have the right on a good product. This depends on price, manufacturer and things like that.

So if your iMac brakes down after 3,5 years without you doing anything wrong, than Apple must replace it (because Apple is related to high quality, and the price of a Mac is very high). If your cheap PC worth 200 euros breaks down after 2,5 years than that's it. If your iMac breaks down after 5 years, than some sort of a deal must be made. You can't get a brand new iMac because your iMac from 5 years ago just stopped working. A deal can be made: for example that the customer pays 50% of the reparation costs.

But in general, everywhere in Europe you have 2 years warranty. That's where Apple and other companies are smart: because when Apple and other companies like Dell offer 'extended warranty', than you are not really paying for an extra year warranty but extra support (like next-day reparation, or free telephone support).

It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

That's actually not true. Maybe in the US it is, but in the EU it isn't. Even if a defect shows up later (for example a computer chip which worked fine before, but suddenly has problems for whatever reason without your fault) than it still falls under warranty. And as mentioned, it's not one year in Europe (you say: "In Apple's case one year"). Apple still has to give you 2 years of warranty, in Europe at least. Even if they only just mention one year.

 

[DonSqueak]

What does THAT then mean?
The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

So really... what is the deal here ?!

That liability got me a PowerBook 12" back in the day when iBooks all had a faulty logic board. After the third return and their inability to give me a good one (the thing was over a year old) it was either full money back or accepting a different Mac in exchange. I took a refurbished PowerBook which served me well for another two years.

 

[mack pro]

Apple makes so much money and they refuse to pay taxes. What a bunch of greedy bastards I hope they go down. This is just another example of Apple getting special treatment.