Apple Hit With Tax Lobbying Protest, Italian Investigation Into AppleCare Offerings

[blindzero]

If they don't get this one time tax break, they will continue to move administrative and other jobs overseas to curtail the tax system even more.

Am I missing something- Wouldn't the easy solution (that is great for American people and companies) be to give the one time break, close the loophole AND lower corporate tax rate all in the same bill. Seems like it'd be easy enough for people to agree on that even for Washington.

 

[Muscle Master]

I don't understand why the Gov can't just give a tax hike equal to the money they keep overseas

I find it puzzling that the American Government is tryna squeeze every cent into a budget but yet ignore taxing the hell out of this multibillion doller companies thats doing nothing but prospering.. the middle and lower class can only do so much

 

[iPhysicist]

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.

Your wrong and as far as i know no warranty covers PEBKAC errors.

 

[JAT]

European law requires, however, a standard two-year warranty, overlapping or entirely coinciding with Apple's separate AppleCare offerings.

Dreamland:

Maybe Apple will start complying with the EU on this, and then just extend all of its warranties worldwide to match.

 

[moderately]

a moral center

So many, when confronted with an issue concerning what business should do or not do stop at the question, "Is it legal or not?". Suggesting that protesting Apple's percieved bad actions is inappropriate and those concerned should just change the law misses both the point and the necessity of the situation.

So many of our legislators are willing to go to great lengths to do what ever business wants. Apple is part of an organization that is working to get them a 4 billion dollar tax break. Protesting this is fundamental to keeping this change from happening. with no one looking it is easier for the laws enabling this to be passed.

Further it is time for Business to be held to some moral standard. "It's nothing personal, just business" should not wash anymore. Business needs to be held to a moral standard of serving the society first, then profit.
/rant

 

[jakerichva]

Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

Actually, they only collect from customers. Shareholders then get to pay taxes on the profits again when they get dividends/sell the shares. The government gets a double dip at the money and think we don't notice. But the bottom line is there is only one entity who really pays, the end guy, the consumer. Everybody else just passes the cost along.

 

[iStudentUK]

It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

It's 6 months before the burden switches in EU law, not 12.

The EU law is often sufficient without a manufacturer's warranty. The "at time of delivery" is an easy obstacle to overcome. The idea is that if a product is of satisfactory quality (and it treated well by the user) then it should last a reasonable length of time. People tend to get hung up on the "at the time" issue.

But in general, everywhere in Europe you have 2 years warranty.

No you don't. You have the right to go to court over a fault that manifests itself in the first two years. That is NOT the same as everything having a 2 year warranty. The court decides whether the product was fit for purpose and how long it should have lasted.

Your wrong

Actually he is right. No EU law imposes the need for a "warranty". A warranty is slightly different to what the EU says must be present in all consumer contracts.

 

[JAT]

That liability got me a PowerBook 12" back in the day when iBooks all had a faulty logic board. After the third return and their inability to give me a good one (the thing was over a year old) it was either full money back or accepting a different Mac in exchange. I took a refurbished PowerBook which served me well for another two years.

The 3 strikes policy is typical Apple. It's not always easy to get there, and the length of Applecare is a separate issue (that also impacts this), but that is their policy.

 

[foodog]

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

If corporate taxes were zero. More corporations would employ more workers in the US. increasing the amount of Income taxes collected from the newly employed, and collecting Medicare & FICA from the corporation and the newly employed. Corporations don't pay taxes, they pass the tax on to the consumer as a cost of doing business. The owners of the corporations pay taxes, that would be the share holders.

 

[maloderous]

Right, because the current pricing models are so affordable!

they've never been cheaper

 

[bossxii]

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

Until the blood sucking Unions that pay high school drop outs $70 bucks an hour to put in 3 bolts in a widget and then retire after 30 years at $55 an hour. No, Apple won't be building any computers in the US.

That is why we have Obama motors (aka Chevrolet) trying to sell $45,000 pick up trucks that Toyota can import for $30,000. If you want to be pissed at an organization, the Unions that have overpriced uneducated labor should be at the top of that list.

 

[JAT]

Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

That's not really true. A corporation is a separate tax entity, and must pay its calculated tax. Now, corps are better at making their share as little as possible. As to "absolutely nothing", Apple lists $2b, $3.8b, $4.5b as income tax the last 3 fiscal years. I don't know if that's as much as we'd all LIKE them to be paying as they have been very successful, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "nothing".

Collecting from customers is VAT or sales tax, and that is outside of corporate responsibility. They are simply required to collect & remit by the taxing authority. You can dislike the tax, but this one has nothing to do with a retailer. Frankly, if I sell you my car for $10k, you and I as individuals are supposed to calculate and remit sales tax, too.

 

[SimonTheSoundMa]

That's actually not true. Maybe in the US it is, but in the EU it isn't. Even if a defect shows up later (for example a computer chip which worked fine before, but suddenly has problems for whatever reason without your fault) than it still falls under warranty. And as mentioned, it's not one year in Europe (you say: "In Apple's case one year"). Apple still has to give you 2 years of warranty, in Europe at least. Even if they only just mention one year.

I was having a repair last week at the Apple Store in Birmingham.

A lady next to me was being seen by the genius. USB ports had failed. Genius printed off the quote for the work, £600, the MacBook was only 1 year and 2 months old. I told her about the Sales of Goods Act when the genius went upstairs. She stated this to the genius, he went to see the manager and came back and said "as a gesture of good will we will repair it for free".

Another guy came in and his screen stopped working. 2 years old MacBook Pro. Almost £500 for the repair. I had to intervene and said "do you see any physical damage?", no, the customer said it had been having problems where the backlight would flash on and off, obviously the problem occurred in the first year. Again, saved him £600. Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

 

[MCP-511]

You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

I agree, the tax law is broken. You can't fault any company for exploiting a loophole, we all would if we could. A protest in Washington would be more appropriate.

 

[ikir]

As far i know things are quite different.

It is 2 years warranty if the PROBLEM WAS AT ORIGIN (first day) not later. So you have 2 years to says "Ehi it was broken since the beginning". Lame, stupid and typical italian (i'm italian) but protect you from industrial faults in production, a thing apple usually do itself increasing warranty in defective products.

And you have right to pretend in 2 years to have a product same as the specs. For example you bought a machine with 4GB ram which can accomodate 16GB as specs says, but for any reason you can't upgrade to 16GB, you have the right to pretend one as the original specs said.

My 2 cents.

 

[iStudentUK]

Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

Good on you!

That response is pretty typical. If they say they are repairing under the Sale of Goods Act two thing happen. Firstly, the customer is educated on their rights and may try and use them again, not good from a big company's perspective! Secondly, they admit there was a fault that was their fault, again not good. Saying "goodwill" admits nothing but keeps the customer happy.

People say that all the time. "X company is really good, they repaired Y even after the warranty was up!". They don't realise it may have been a legal requirement anyway.

 

[ikir]

I was having a repair last week at the Apple Store in Birmingham.

A lady next to me was being seen by the genius. USB ports had failed. Genius printed off the quote for the work, £600, the MacBook was only 1 year and 2 months old. I told her about the Sales of Goods Act when the genius went upstairs. She stated this to the genius, he went to see the manager and came back and said "as a gesture of good will we will repair it for free".

Another guy came in and his screen stopped working. 2 years old MacBook Pro. Almost £500 for the repair. I had to intervene and said "do you see any physical damage?", no, the customer said it had been having problems where the backlight would flash on and off, obviously the problem occurred in the first year. Again, saved him £600. Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

Why because you opened these notebooks? When people says "it stopped working" they mean, i dropped water/beer/nutella on it. believe me it is not a joke i work in a computer shop/support center.

A friend of mine work in a Apple Store in italy and they fix a lot of thing, really for "good will", when the damage is even accidental one.

 

[SimonTheSoundMa]

A warranty is an insurance policy. Most retailers take out a policy with an insurance company, Apple included. Unsure who Apple are with, but it is in the small print of your AppleCare. A guarantee, just forget it, it's meaningless, as are warranties. Also remember, a warranty cannot take away your statute rights, which comes on to my next point.

Some retailers also try to say "it is out of guarantee, it has broken, there is no way we can help you". Ugh, wrong! They have to get it repaired within the 6 year period, even if it costs you to get it repaired, if not they have to find a replacement or give you the money (cost of the product with depreciation). Also, the contract is between the retailer and the customer, so if they say "well not our problem you need to contact the manufacturer" is also wrong.



HMV have a headache when people returned PS3's when Other OS was taken off. This comes under "product as described" when new. They were giving out £150 to £200 for each console. Some retailers said you need to contact Sony, which is wrong.

 

[TWSS37]

they've never been cheaper

That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

 

[Krevnik]

The problem is that Apple can and will spend millions of dollars lobbying (buying) congress to make sure that the tax code contains the loopholes they need to, as you put it, "avoid" taxes. This is how oil companies end up with tax credits and GE ends up owing negative dollars in taxes. Corporate lobbyists write the bills and give them to the congresspeople, who "introduce" them as written, and vote those bills into law. unless someone raises too much stink about it—Then they just add the bill to another law that is too important to vote against.

The entire system is broken, and it comes down to this concept that corporations are people and that money is speech. Those may be, aside from the dred scott case, the two worst decisions the supreme court has ever made.

Saying "they're not technically breaking the laws" is absurd. They wrote the laws in the first place.

It's a mistake to assume that the tax law is written specifically to include loopholes. Part of the problem is the whole issue of who owes what to which country when you start talking about international corporations. I can bet you that this money very likely came from non-US buyers and is locked up in non-US accounts. They may have even already paid tax on it to the local government where the money is based, depending on their laws. To bring it back into the country would mean paying a tax on that money.

This is a different type of issue than strictly domestic tax issues, as you have multiple sovereign states involved with their own tax policies. It gets a bit harder to see exactly how they interact when planning tax code. But there are certainly benefits to encouraging companies to take money from overseas customers, bringing it into the local economy and spending it there. As it is now, Apple has quite a bit of money that doesn't make sense to bring into the country due to the tax code, so it won't get spent here producing local jobs.

That all said, I really don't know where I fall in the debate, because I see massive pros and cons to either approach (ensuring taxes on all revenue coming into a country, versus encouraging a company to bring their profits home to spend on local development).

 

[koobcamuk]

That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Try buying gas in the UK or Europe if you think that is expensive. You have no idea.

 

[SimonTheSoundMa]

That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Not bad, paying $8.50 a US gallon here.

 

[cadillac1234]

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

I love Apple products and innovation but I completely agree with your post.

Just because you can take advantage of an extremely flawed tax and workforce system doesn't mean you should do it. You end up killing your base who will be purchasing your goods

 

[logandzwon]

I see a bunch of people saying, "I pay taxes, so should Apple." However, either businesses have learned to type, or you guys seem to believe Apple is a person. Apple is not as person. You are a person. You pay income tax. Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Ronald Wayne, and Tim Cook all pay income tax. Every employee at Apple pays income tax. You can not tax something that isn't a person. What can you can do is Tax a group of people for being a group, then tax then again with income tax. This is stupid. Corporation should not be taxed, nor should not be allowed to donate money in any form.

If you having understanding this, think a much smaller company. Imagine if you incorporated, and your corporation had one employee, (you.) Your corporation send you out to do your job, and the job site writes your corp a check. The corp then pays you with that check. Now imagine you get 3 friends together, each gets 25% share in this company. You all four now go out and do a job. Your company gets paid. As the CEO you decided to support your favored politician, and you donate a little to your favor charity. Then you pay a little tax. The rest is paid back to and your 3 employees. Who paid the tax? Not the corporation, a corp is not a person. At the end of the day the tax and the donations came out of the checks of all four people, each of whom now need to pay income tax.


We should simply eliminate corporate donations and taxes altogether. Both are forms of stealing from the employees, and the share holders. We SHOULD tax IMPORTS. If it's cheaper to build over seas, great, send them in. But tax them for costing US jobs.

 

[chris200x9]

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

sure, if you want $2000 base-model iMacs.

And what pray tell is the 70BN in cash doing? Nothing! I mean what about corporate patriotism, why will no company move and create American jobs. All it would take is receiving less profit. You would still be filthy rich, just less so. Also don't give me that crap about investors, google has a smaller market cap and less cash on hand but has ~1.6 the stock price. Again what is apple's 70BN doing, it's certainly not paying dividends. I have no doubt in my mind apple, or pretty much any big name company, could shift operation to America and still flourish while keeping prices the same.