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thomasthegps

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2015
220
145
France
I have said this for years and every one goes no no intel this intel that processor change this processor that. I go look apple is going to start the process of having the entire OS written in a higher level language or a modern level C so that they can combine it and all the built in libraries over to ARM. Then it is a simple re-compile for most not all applications to join the ARM OS X train. This is where apple is going. There is no reason to update the Dock or Finder ETC with a total re-write to a new language otherwise. They are moving the ball slowly and in clear view to ARM. The first mechanical cooled ARM chip is now in the ATV. They are getting ready to see how far they can push the Atv it is a low risk product with low sales currently. They can latter on push it hard and if they fail they have good understanding of thermal loads in the wild. They are going to make a MacBook A series chip. This is going to happen when is the only question I have left. They have several sub-systems left to migrate on the UI side of the house. They also need to start to get developers into the idea that the apps need to be universal again. This push will come with a new heavy push for the App Store. This why the universal binaries are handled on the back end away from the user. The arm user will not know they are using arm unless they look at the specs. This is where they want to go. So you can write it one time and have it run multi thread monster on the Mac Pro or multi thread mini on the ARM in the MacBook scales perfectly and is universal. This is where apple has pointed the ship. Intel has nothing on the road map at the sub 15 watt chip size that punches. I know now I will get the people who go but arm is not intel the benchmarks don't compare etc etc. This is going to happen. So strap in for the next decade cause it will be ARM and it will be universal binaries and it will all feel like a throw back to the early 2k.

Can't wait.
 
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PowerGala

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2016
201
272
It will be interesting to see how it all works, but it would probably mean that the Mac Mini would finally get updated on a regular basis and it could really up the performance and battery life of the MacBook.

I just wonder if they’ll put them in a new iMac or not. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
 

thomasthegps

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2015
220
145
France
Could there be any chance that Apple may use in future products BOTH Intel AND A chips?

I mean technically, could an A11 chip and an i5 share somehow the workload and coexist?


very unlikely. These two cpus don't share a common architecture. If they coexisted they would probably be used for very different tasks and the X86 chip would probably be the main chip. My guess is that if they make an ARM based laptop it will only be ARM. I don't see why they would include an X86 cpu in a ARM laptop design. It would defeat the purpose.
 

Zackmd1

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2010
815
487
Maryland US
Now that Windows is moving to ARM (again) with full x86 application support, Intel under delivering on processors while AMD has a lot to catch up on in the mobile department, and the fact that their A11 already performs better then Intel counterparts in a 7mm thin passively cooled phone, I think now is a better time then ever to make the transition to ARM Macs....

Imagine an A11x actively cooled with a TDP of 15 watts instead of just around 5 watts in a laptop the size of the current 12" Macbook.... More performance then the current Macbook Pro with less heat.

I imagine Apple can figure out a way to have current x86 applications run on an ARM platform well enough during the transition period. Especially if Microsoft has figured out a way...
 

tipoo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2017
561
718
Could there be any chance that Apple may use in future products BOTH Intel AND A chips?

I mean technically, could an A11 chip and an i5 share somehow the workload and coexist?

I think this might actually be where they start. Have the T1 chip that handles Touchbar duties handle sleep next for even lower power, then handle system idling for even lower power...Keep moving more to ARM over time.
 

Blackstick

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2014
1,198
5,604
OH
No doubt they have prototypes in Cupertino leveraging ARM/Intel hybrids and internal versions of macOS rigged on ARM probably running iPad-like apps, but I'm curious if they'd make the investment on a platform that is responsible for less than 20% of their revenue, a platform some would call "legacy computing"... certainly the Mac is an important business segment, but with the "maintain course mode" it has been on for the past 5 or so years, would they bother re-engineering it significantly as they did when they moved from PPC to Intel in '06.
 
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redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,419
8,841
Colorado, USA
A-chips would be fine in a MacBook, but still a long way from replacing x86 in Apple's higher-end MacBook Pro and desktop Macs.

I'm just hoping Apple can release a decent Mac mini with quad-core Intel Kaby Lake instead of continuing to sell one with four-year-old dual-core Haswell. Intel is not the delay here, and hasn't been for years.
 

Blackstick

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2014
1,198
5,604
OH
A-chips would be fine in a MacBook, but still a long way from replacing x86 in Apple's higher-end MacBook Pro and desktop Macs.

I'm just hoping Apple can release a decent Mac mini with Quad-core Intel Kaby Lake instead of continuing to sell one with four=year-old dual-core Haswell. Intel is not the delay here, and hasn't been for years.
The question there is if Apple feels it's necessary to even update the Mac mini again, when they can force users downmarket to iPads or upmarket to iMacs, in a rather hostile fashion no doubt.
 

zorinlynx

macrumors G3
May 31, 2007
8,144
17,477
Florida, USA
No doubt they have prototypes in Cupertino leveraging ARM/Intel hybrids and internal versions of macOS rigged on ARM probably running iPad-like apps, but I'm curious if they'd make the investment on a platform that is responsible for less than 20% of their revenue, a platform some would call "legacy computing"... certainly the Mac is an important business segment, but with the "maintain course mode" it has been on for the past 5 or so years, would they bother re-engineering it significantly as they did when they moved from PPC to Intel in '06.

Macs are not "legacy computing". Try using an iPad to do any sort of real work for any length of time; you will want to throw it at a wall. You still need a Mac (or even a Windows or Linux PC, let's be fair) to do real work. You still need a real computer to do software development.

Like it or not, iPads and iPhones are best at consuming content, communication, etc... They are not good productivity tools. Sure, there are things you can do on an iPad, but once the scope of work becomes more involved, you're going to want a real computer.

If I had to depend solely on an iPad to do my job I would go crazy in short order.
 

WestonHarvey1

macrumors 68030
Jan 9, 2007
2,771
2,187
Macs can't move to ARM unless they invent x86 to ARM instruction set translation without performance penalty - Mac doesn't make sense without ability to run x86 virtual machines (Linux, Windows).

I bet you Apple will throw in a low power i3 "compatibility processor" or something like that in early models. What I do think will end up happening that will make this not matter over time is that the PC world will transition to ARM as well. There's little reason not to, and Windows and Linux already run on ARM.
 
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Sasparilla

macrumors 68000
Jul 6, 2012
1,956
3,357
This is a no-brainer with the A11 clocking in as fast as Macbook Pro quadcore i5's and as Apple will get to scale their processor production further - but being able to boot to Windows is a feature businesses like alot. May be why Microsoft is developing an ARM based version of Windows....

Apple rocks in this area - Qualcomm's CPU's are years behind in benchmarks. Intel is looking at a bleak future.
 

Nagy Dávid

macrumors member
Oct 1, 2014
40
99
Macs can't move to ARM unless they invent x86 to ARM instruction set translation without performance penalty - Mac doesn't make sense without ability to run x86 virtual machines (Linux, Windows).
Yes, usually people buy Apple computers to run Linux and Windows. This is the reason why Hackintosh is a thing.
Anyway, they were popular with PowerPC processors and they will be with ARM as well.
 

meme1255

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2012
742
594
Czechia
No doubt they have prototypes in Cupertino leveraging ARM/Intel hybrids and internal versions of macOS rigged on ARM probably running iPad-like apps, but I'm curious if they'd make the investment on a platform that is responsible for less than 20% of their revenue, a platform some would call "legacy computing"... certainly the Mac is an important business segment, but with the "maintain course mode" it has been on for the past 5 or so years, would they bother re-engineering it significantly as they did when they moved from PPC to Intel in '06.

Well... There is a group of people iOS depends on - iOS app developers. And they NEED Macs.
[doublepost=1506692243][/doublepost]
Yes, usually people buy Apple computers to run Linux and Windows. This is the reason why Hackintosh is a thing.
Anyway, they were popular with PowerPC processors and they will be with ARM as well.

Yes. But if this happens, then I and plenty of other developers will have to at least partially move away from Macs as the simply won't suffice to their needs. And ask Microsoft (specifically the WP division) what happens when developers aren't satisfied with the developer tools and environment. :)
 
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Blackstick

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2014
1,198
5,604
OH
Macs are not "legacy computing". Try using an iPad to do any sort of real work for any length of time; you will want to throw it at a wall. You still need a Mac (or even a Windows or Linux PC, let's be fair) to do real work. You still need a real computer to do software development.

Like it or not, iPads and iPhones are best at consuming content, communication, etc... They are not good productivity tools. Sure, there are things you can do on an iPad, but once the scope of work becomes more involved, you're going to want a real computer.

If I had to depend solely on an iPad to do my job I would go crazy in short order.

It's the Steve Jobs analogy, there will always be a need for Macs, but they're the trucks of the world, and most people buy cars or crossover/SUVs. Every year, fewer and fewer normal people will NEED them, some will want them. I look at my daughter's pre-school class, these kids are growing up with touchscreen everything everywhere... they've never held a mouse or used a screen they can't touch - and they're not going to immediately warm up to a MacBook Pro that in many ways, speaking in form factor, is a 1980s interface.

We see it with the 18 year-old interns at work, they live on their phone... the Windows laptop is an impediment that gets left at their desk over the weekend, they're basically allergic to that device.
 

Olganech

macrumors regular
Mar 21, 2015
210
127
not surprising at all. Microsoft demoed Windows running on ARM snapdragon 835. If apple wants to create a Mac Laptop with bootcamp support for Windows ARM, they could. Can't wait for the "Transition Keynote" "Motorola to PPC, PPC to intel and now Intel to Arm"

Windows has been running on ARM for 5 years. It is only now that it will run native x86 programs on ARM with the SD835.
 

meme1255

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2012
742
594
Czechia
We see it with the 18 year-old interns at work, they live on their phone... the Windows laptop is an impediment that gets left at their desk over the weekend, they're basically allergic to that device.

I'm just few years older... And phone is fine for Messenger and some reading in Safari. For everything else I use my MacBook with 25" external display if at home (reading longer text on small screen - I just hate doing that..). I'm probably a minority, though.
 

Blackstick

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2014
1,198
5,604
OH
I'm just few years older... And phone is fine for Messenger and some reading in Safari. For everything else I use my MacBook with 25" external display if at home (reading longer text on small screen - I just hate doing that..). I'm probably a minority, though.
I'm 33 so I'm a hybrid dinosaur of sorts. I love my iMac when I need FinalCut Pro and Lightroom and Handbrake/MakeMKV for uh, purposes... but the 98% of free/leisure time, iPad on the couch, iPhone in the pocket.

My brother is an attorney, he totes his Lenovo laptop home on weekends and ignores it unless he has to work on a case... otherwise it's just his iPhone 7 for texts, and streaming movies/TV shows/PlayStation on his 70" set... he's not unusual.

Too many people in their 40s+ think the Mac isn't a legacy platform because they love themselves a good keyboard/mouse, it IS legacy computing... just a relevant one, downright critical in many use cases (development especially). No different than Windows in that classification. My daughter is 2, and she's not down with iMacs that don't have touchscreens, doesn't get it, never will.
 
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VulchR

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2009
3,358
14,217
Scotland
Macs can't move to ARM unless they invent x86 to ARM instruction set translation without performance penalty - Mac doesn't make sense without ability to run x86 virtual machines (Linux, Windows).

Agreed. The ability to run Windows virtual machines is essential to my work, and since work is one of the last bastions of personal computers.... Let us hope Apple does not repeat its past mistakes.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,084
31,015
that sounds like blatant speculation. Apple is probably not going to make a ARM macbook unless they are sure their chip is powerful enough. I wouldn't worry about people leaving apple because they use ARM chips.
Yeah when I want to know what Apple’s thinking in the chip space Nikkei is my go to source. But this will give all the techies on Twitter something to talk about for the day.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,288
6,942
Midwest USA
Macs can't move to ARM unless they invent x86 to ARM instruction set translation without performance penalty - Mac doesn't make sense without ability to run x86 virtual machines (Linux, Windows).

Well it makes sense for a dumbed down Mac that only does email, twitter, reddit, snapchat, etc. really well, and not much else. Which is BTW Apple's target audience for the Mac.

I can't wait for version 2 of the iMac Pro in 2025.
 
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