Macs weren't terribly popular with the PowerPC processors, nor terribly quick either.
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Apple Interested in Developing ARM-Based Mac Processors and iPhone Modems in House
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Macs weren't terribly popular with the PowerPC processors, nor terribly quick either.
I’m 20 to be more specific. iPad is great for reading something or some movie in bed, it’s a lot like iPhone for me, just bigger.
For writing longer texts, coding keyboard is necessary. Mac allows me to make some money and do things iPad just can’t. I agree that running VMs and IDEs, developing for MCUs isn’t something most of us do...
One direction Apple could go with ARM-based Macs would be to make an ARM MacBook (not pro) and pull something similar to Windows on the Surface Laptop, where it is limited to the App Store and is not intended for markets where users need x86 apps like Windows/Linux for VMs. Ideally it would be cheaper and make up for cost via the App Store. The App Store requirement would mitigate any user confusion since only ARM App Store apps can be installed.
For a little while now, apps have been submitted in a Bitcode type format, able to then be compiled down to x86 or ARM (or something else even). This is all handled on the back-end, but I think it's a sign of something in the works. They already have a large inventory of apps that can easily be deployed to ARM with little to no modification, assuming they have a version of macOS and libraries for ARM (and let's be honest, they do).
I don't think they'd want to just replace Intel outright at first, as we see in this thread, many professionals still need x86, but by hitting the low-end, non-pro market, they can test the waters for ARM on Mac and build up a good test bed. We may never see full x86 emulation, Intel has already warned Microsoft that they are violating some patents by trying this, so Apple will likely either find another way around it, or this transition may wake Intel up enough to realize they could just license the emulation instead of get replaced.
For a little while now, apps have been submitted in a Bitcode type format, able to then be compiled down to x86 or ARM (or something else even). This is all handled on the back-end, but I think it's a sign of something in the works. They already have a large inventory of apps that can easily be deployed to ARM with little to no modification, assuming they have a version of macOS and libraries for ARM (and let's be honest, they do).
I don't think they'd want to just replace Intel outright at first, as we see in this thread, many professionals still need x86, but by hitting the low-end, non-pro market, they can test the waters for ARM on Mac and build up a good test bed. We may never see full x86 emulation, Intel has already warned Microsoft that they are violating some patents by trying this, so Apple will likely either find another way around it, or this transition may wake Intel up enough to realize they could just license the emulation instead of get replaced.
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History shows otherwise. The Mac operating system has already seen several "disruptive" migrations. Pascal to C, 16 to 32bit, 32 to 64bit, 68K to PPC, PPC to Intel, and at least at the kernel and low-levels Intel to ARM for iOS devices.
Apple made each one look pretty simple. Sure there were some hiccups but the undertakings were far more complex than most users ever conceived.
The majority of Mac customers do not run these VMs. Yet, Linux runs just fine on ARM processors (Raspberry Pi’s, et.al.), and MS has an ARM version of Windows and Office apps for those few who need such.
The small number of gamers and vintage software users can continue to buy Dull x86 PCs without significantly impacting Apple’s much larger customer base.
So an ARM Mac Mini and Book make perfect sense.
Sigh. Why are there so many posts assuming Apples inhouse chips will replace the core CPU when they'd be better suited for support chips. At least in the short term.
What this does do is affect the Hackintosh community as sourcing these specialized chips would be near to impossible.
What this does do is affect the Hackintosh community as sourcing these specialized chips would be near to impossible.
Not so many years ago I would have found this move not far from ritual suicide but the times have changed...
Windows as a platform is continuously less relevant (don't confuse with irrelevant) and therefore the appeal to install it on a Mac is less relevant
Software is increasingly platform agnostic, well everything is increasingly platform agnostic
Apple's ARM processors are evolving a lot faster than other hardware.
ARM in general has a increasingly larger role in computing
I guess that what is holding Apple is the high end. I doubt they would have both x86 and ARM versions of Mac OS X at the same time.
Windows as a platform is continuously less relevant (don't confuse with irrelevant) and therefore the appeal to install it on a Mac is less relevant
Software is increasingly platform agnostic, well everything is increasingly platform agnostic
Apple's ARM processors are evolving a lot faster than other hardware.
ARM in general has a increasingly larger role in computing
I guess that what is holding Apple is the high end. I doubt they would have both x86 and ARM versions of Mac OS X at the same time.
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I have nothing ARM in Macbook. Just don’t put it in Pros.
I can even imagine having both SoCs (ARM+x86) with MacOS running at ARM CPU and triggering the x86 only when required.
It's not really Apple's responsibility to ensure continued capability and support for Hackintoshes, though.
This is a concern. Being able to virtualize other x86 operating systems is a huge benefit of a standard x86 platform. And do we really want to deal with Rosetta again?
The more likely scenario in the short-to-medium term is that they'll expand upon the x86+ARM approach, such as they did with the Touchbar. Portions of the OS and all application code will largely remain the same and run on the x86 side, while they'll continue to move more functions to their own ARM-based ones. I can imagine them handling Face ID (as they already do Touch ID), ML, networking, bluetooth, and other always-on features on an ARM chip with better performance-per-watt than any x86 chip.
Now that they can produce AX series chips that outperform MBP level Intel processors for much less money, seems like a no brainer. Just hope the transition will be smooth. Imagine a iPhone sized logic board in a MBP with an A11X or A12X and it's going to be blazing fast.
It isn’t that easy - one thing is benchmark and the other is real use and compatibility.
If Mac makes the shift, likely Linux and Windows will begin the shift to ARM as well. Maybe a few yrs of dongle-hell equivalent wrt software, but the shift would happen rather quick.
Guys, cool down. This Nikkei "Report" is clearly a hoax.
Back to April 2017 @Apple Headquarters:
TechCrunch: We’ve seen over time you leading the industry and getting more and more performance out of ARM. Everyone looks at the curves going up. As you guys look at different trends that are taking over, do you see ARM-based chips playing a role in desktops and Macs in the future?
Craig Federighi: We’ve actually see that a little bit already. [With the] T1, I think we called it? But it brings some of the authentication, the Secure Enclave processor, for instance, out of our iPhone SoCs and makes them available on the Mac. So we see a really interesting complementary role for our silicon working with Intel. And we certainly work with Intel on our needs to deliver chips into our Mac roadmap and we see that continuing.
TechCrunch: It sound like you see that for the near future being a complementary role, versus —
Craig Federighi: Correct.
Source: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/
No ARM in Macs. Let's move on.
Back to April 2017 @Apple Headquarters:
TechCrunch: We’ve seen over time you leading the industry and getting more and more performance out of ARM. Everyone looks at the curves going up. As you guys look at different trends that are taking over, do you see ARM-based chips playing a role in desktops and Macs in the future?
Craig Federighi: We’ve actually see that a little bit already. [With the] T1, I think we called it? But it brings some of the authentication, the Secure Enclave processor, for instance, out of our iPhone SoCs and makes them available on the Mac. So we see a really interesting complementary role for our silicon working with Intel. And we certainly work with Intel on our needs to deliver chips into our Mac roadmap and we see that continuing.
TechCrunch: It sound like you see that for the near future being a complementary role, versus —
Craig Federighi: Correct.
Source: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/
No ARM in Macs. Let's move on.
I'm the first to agree that I will always have a full computer, because I write software all day and I'm a 'compute' guy. But be careful when saying things like 'do real work.' My wife does 90% of her 'real work' on her iPhone. Email, pictures, editing pictures, writing content, editing content, etc... I'm amazed how she does it, and her workflow is completely different than mine, but she gets it done. She also curses anytime she has to pull out the mac the handle whatever 10% of the work she can't yet do on her phone.
You’d still have to deal with legacy software - today it’s easy, just run VM with (Snow) Leopard or any Windows/Linux version and you’re done.
This is exactly what I see them doing... bringing out perhaps a 12" and 14" MacBook or similar with an Apple A chip, and app-store exclusive. For most people, long as they can manipulate their files in Finder from USB-C drives/cloud and have Microsoft Office for business stuff, they'll be fine. Netflix has an app, after all.
The average person can get by just fine with App Store offered software... MacRumors readers think they're average but once they mention development environments, VMs and playing with the terminal, they're really not. And while I sooooo enjoy some of my apps/tools from "not the App Store", my wife has no idea how to use them, doesn't want to know... just looks in the App Store on her iPad. Her work computer is a dumb Dell that force-connects to the hospital's VDI and she uses the patient portal - that's the extent of her Windows use.
Exactly! It's easy to think there's no market for this type of device, but on the contrary, I know plenty of people who could do just fine with an iPad but still believe they need a traditional laptop. Some even avoid Macs because they're still too expensive, so this could be a sweet-spot for that market to win over potential Windows users. Just because many of us couldn't get by with an ARM laptop doesn't mean there's no room for one.
Sounds like a danger zone: being able to run x64 x86 intel/amd code is vital to mac growth and mac developing. Perhaps the real story behind this is that the mac is no longer an intrest area whereas ipad etc is. Mac fan's have already waivered over recent machines and Mac OS. If this is managed wrong, perhaps Microsoft will be in for new customers.
Ugh. I already suffered through one architecture change going from my G5 to the Intel Macs and it was a massive disruption. Hardware to a certain extent but definitely software. And time. And money.
The biggest problem now is I am using an Intel Mac because it runs all the Mac software I need it to but I also have a boot camp partition.
Why? Because some developers who produce software I use are already leary of the change from OpenGL to metal and refuse to develop for Metal regardless if their application would receive any benefit from doing so.
Processor wise, I'm at a 4 ghz i7. There's not much room for improvement in the consumer space at that level today.
Show me an AMD that meets or beats that. And that also will run existing software with no penalty.
I don't think that's going to happen at least not in the near term.
If you want to further marginalize the Mac switch to Arm. People will have to buy all new software again and some developers will just say "forget it" and switch to windows permanently.
Yes there's a place for touchscreen computers but in the work world where things get done they're only used for doing presentations. All the work gets done on laptops or desktops. Kids might dig 'em and I like 'em too but at work I couldn't do real work with a tablet.
The biggest problem now is I am using an Intel Mac because it runs all the Mac software I need it to but I also have a boot camp partition.
Why? Because some developers who produce software I use are already leary of the change from OpenGL to metal and refuse to develop for Metal regardless if their application would receive any benefit from doing so.
Processor wise, I'm at a 4 ghz i7. There's not much room for improvement in the consumer space at that level today.
Show me an AMD that meets or beats that. And that also will run existing software with no penalty.
I don't think that's going to happen at least not in the near term.
If you want to further marginalize the Mac switch to Arm. People will have to buy all new software again and some developers will just say "forget it" and switch to windows permanently.
Yes there's a place for touchscreen computers but in the work world where things get done they're only used for doing presentations. All the work gets done on laptops or desktops. Kids might dig 'em and I like 'em too but at work I couldn't do real work with a tablet.
Seems you love running only Apple-provided software - because that's all that would run on it (with any speed). For an ARM-based Mac to succeed, third-party and open-source developers have to embrace it (i.e. convert their apps to it).
Nah it would just run iPad apps first, and then adopt an Apple provided mouse driver, theoretically.
1987: "Macs can't move off 68K"
1994: Apple seamlessly transitions Macs to PowerPC
2002: "Macs can't move off PPC processors"
2006: Apple seamlessly transitions Macs to Intel
2017: "Macs can't move off x86 processors"
2020?