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Ahh, but calling people with dissenting points a view a "whinger"(sic) is A-OK? Sorry, your high an mighty stance does not hold up to scrutiny, which is why you received the "Tim" comment.

You can't have it both ways.

Well, I guess you can try - obviously.


You can try and justify your childish mentality all you like. The fact is, if you want to bang on that the cost of heating your home in winter has gone up by 50%. Or that there's been a levy placed on all foodstuffs to the tune of 250%. Those, hypotheticals, are most definitely able to be defined as a rip off. And by God I'll join in with shouting against it all day long.


Incessant prattling on over the price of a luxury, non essential item that you deem to be too expensive because that's what suits you, when you don't even have to buy it. That my friend is the very definition of whinging.
 
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You can try and justify your childish mentality all you like. The fact is, if you want to bang on that the cost of heating your home in winter has gone up by 50%. Or that there's been a levy placed on all foodstuffs to the tune of 250%. Those, hypotheticals, are most definitely able to be defined as a rip off. And by God I'll join in with shouting against it all day long.


Incessant prattling on over the price of a luxury, non essential item that you deem to be too expensive because that's what suits you, when you don't even have to buy it. That my friend is the very definition of whinging.

Believe me there is no point in citing facts. If you look back I've cited numerous examples over 4 or 5 posts of markups in the hundreds and thousands of percent- clothing, groceries, eating out, coffee- marked up 300-400-500 up to 4,000%!!

That simple thing like the Coke at the fast food drive through? Marked up 1,400% from $.05-.10 to $1.30-1.50. Same with the vending machine, marked up easily 1,000%. Bottled water? 4000% markup from cost. Consumer goods markups are littered on Google if one made any effort.

So Apple marks up their products a whopping 100% (about $300 to build the 32gb as the Air 2 16gb was $275, and sell for $599) and everyone loses their minds in a frenzy.

It's hypocritical at best. Apple has the least markup of many many items one buys in the course of their daily life. But I dont see any Aquafina/Coke/etc protests!

The trolls just ignore facts and only harp on the "no you were so childish first!" and "oh you're just an Apple fanboy/apologist" as comebacks because they have no answer/rebuttal to the facts. It's the 5 year old argument- kid 1 state fact; kid 2 "oh yeh oh yeh, well you smell! I win!"
 
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Believe me there is no point in citing facts. If you look back I've cited numerous examples over 4 or 5 posts of markups in the hundreds and thousands of percent- clothing, groceries, eating out, coffee- marked up 300-400-500 up to 4,000%!!

That simple thing like the Coke at the fast food drive through? Marked up 1,400% from $.05-.10 to $1.30-1.50. Same with the vending machine, marked up easily 1,000%.

So Apple marks up their products a whopping 100% (about $300 to build the 32gb as the Air 2 16gb was $275, and sell for $599) and everyone loses their minds in a frenzy.

It's hypocritical at best. Apple has the least markup of many many items one buys in the course of their daily life.

The trolls just ignore fact and only harp on the "no you were so childish first!" and oh you're just a " fanboy/apologist" because they have no answer/rebuttal to the facts.


Ain't that the truth ;) Still, debating can be fun, well, to a point at least :rolleyes:
 
Ain't that the truth ;) Still, debating can be fun, well, to a point at least :rolleyes:

Problem is slinging Apple apologist and Apple fanboy isn't even a debate.

I have seen 0 facts how Apple is ripping anyone off at approx. 100% markup from cost; well at least versus other every day goods marked up at many times that no one says a word about. One's subjective view it's a ripoff is not fact.

So how only Apple rips people off, and at only about 100% markup versus the hundreds of thousands of percent people pay on items daily, is baffling.

And lastly no one forced anyone to buy a luxury toy. It's not a staple of life to begin with that one must own (like say food to eat).
 
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Problem is slinging Apple apologist and Apple fanboy isn't even a debate.

I have seen 0 facts how Apple is ripping anyone off at approx. 100% markup from cost; well at least versus other every day goods marked up at many times that no one says a word about. So how only Apple rips people off, and at only about 100% markup, is baffling.

And lastly no one forced anyone to buy a luxury toy. It's not a staple of life to begin with that one must own (like say food to eat).


Yeah that's what I'm getting at. Some people forget what the primary purpose of a business is. To make money. Even a not for profit businesses primary goal is to make money.

I'll just never get my head around the, call it entitlement or whatever is your preference, of some people in regards to their outlook on these non essential items. Maybe it's because of the era I grew up in. Maybe it's because back then we didn't have much money and I learned to appreciate what I had and what could be afforded. I really don't know, there just seems to be some kind of crossover between want and need these days.
 
Thanks for your reply. You are right of course. However, so far I have felt that Apple's Ipad was reasonably, yet still expensively priced. Just with the launch of the new Pro my perspective has changed.
I kind of agree with you. I think they've gone a little silly with the accessory pricing. Of course Apple has always been known for their higher end pricing in their products and associated accessories. However, the only real proprietary must have accessory is the Pencil. You can definitely choose to buy third party keyboards and cases/covers st lower pricing. That's really a personal decision.
 
I kind of agree with you. I think they've gone a little silly with the accessory pricing. Of course Apple has always been known for their higher end pricing in their products and associated accessories. However, the only real proprietary must have accessory is the Pencil. You can definitely choose to buy third party keyboards and cases/covers st lower pricing. That's really a personal decision.

The accessory prices, yes I am on board with that argument. $150 for the keyboard and $100 for the pencil is too high.

The keyboard would still be more than fair at $100 and the pencil $50-60. Or say $150 if you buy both as a package together bundle; make people want to buy all of the accessories. Still plenty of profit at those prices likely.

The silicone case at $70 should be like $40. That is easily marked up a few thousand percent from the plastic cost that probably costs $5 to make tops.

But to say Apple is getting rich on the iPad isn't exactly true. They make more money (markup %) selling accessories than the iPads themselves.
 
Believe me there is no point in citing facts. If you look back I've cited numerous examples over 4 or 5 posts of markups in the hundreds and thousands of percent- clothing, groceries, eating out, coffee- marked up 300-400-500 up to 4,000%!!

That simple thing like the Coke at the fast food drive through? Marked up 1,400% from $.05-.10 to $1.30-1.50. Same with the vending machine, marked up easily 1,000%. Bottled water? 4000% markup from cost. Consumer goods markups are littered on Google if one made any effort.

So Apple marks up their products a whopping 100% (about $300 to build the 32gb as the Air 2 16gb was $275, and sell for $599) and everyone loses their minds in a frenzy.

It's hypocritical at best. Apple has the least markup of many many items one buys in the course of their daily life. But I dont see any Aquafina/Coke/etc protests!

The trolls just ignore facts and only harp on the "no you were so childish first!" and "oh you're just an Apple fanboy/apologist" as comebacks because they have no answer/rebuttal to the facts. It's the 5 year old argument- kid 1 state fact; kid 2 "oh yeh oh yeh, well you smell! I win!"

You keep using the same example about fast food fountain drink markup and individual price items. Sure McDonalds charges $1.00 for a nickel coke....but then they also have razor thin if not loss margins on things on their dollar menu and that margin makes up other costs they incur. But when you get the financial sheet of all of those companies, no Fortune 100 company is pulling anything close to the profit margin of Apple...nobody.

But that's really not the point. I agree they aren't ripping anybody off in that no one is forced to buy their products. It's their right to price their products as they see fit. It's each consumers right to make a purchasing decision.

To me it's more about providing a premium value/experience for the prices they charge. Apple is they are no longer providing the quality of hardware/software or innovation in new products that they used to. There seems to be an even deeper cutting of corners on old products (stubbornly sticking with 16 gig base memory, 5400 iMac hard rives, fusion drives with smaller SSDs), lack of innovation in new products (just making bigger/smaller tablets/phones), head scratching decisions on new products (single port MacBook, sluggish Apple Watch) and creating cheaply spec'd/performing entry level products (new Mac Mini and iMac).

I had no problem paying a premium when Apple created innovative products 'that just work'. But I think it's fair to question when Apple slips for the lofty expectations they created.

That doesn't mean I'm an Apple hater or troll. (This is where I'd normally get the 'go buy something else!') It's just that I'd like to see them to return to being great. I like Apple products, or I wouldn't have bought them. To often we have this 'defender vs hater' attitude about everything (sports, products, politics) rather than being able to be somewhere in the middle. It's OK to like Apple, but still be critical of some decisions that they make.
 
You keep using the same example about fast food fountain drink markup and individual price items. Sure McDonalds charges $1.00 for a nickel coke....but then they also have razor thin if not loss margins on things on their dollar menu and that margin makes up other costs they incur. But when you get the financial sheet of all of those companies, no Fortune 100 company is pulling anything close to the profit margin of Apple...nobody.

But that's really not the point. I agree they aren't ripping anybody off in that no one is forced to buy their products. It's their right to price their products as they see fit. It's each consumers right to make a purchasing decision.

To me it's more about providing a premium value/experience for the prices they charge. Apple is they are no longer providing the quality of hardware/software or innovation in new products that they used to. There seems to be an even deeper cutting of corners on old products (stubbornly sticking with 16 gig base memory, 5400 iMac hard rives, fusion drives with smaller SSDs), lack of innovation in new products (just making bigger/smaller tablets/phones), head scratching decisions on new products (single port MacBook, sluggish Apple Watch) and creating cheaply spec'd/performing entry level products (new Mac Mini and iMac).

I had no problem paying a premium when Apple created innovative products 'that just work'. But I think it's fair to question when Apple slips for the lofty expectations they created.

That doesn't mean I'm an Apple hater or troll. (This is where I'd normally get the 'go buy something else!') It's just that I'd like to see them to return to being great. I like Apple products, or I wouldn't have bought them. To often we have this 'defender vs hater' attitude about everything (sports, products, politics) rather than being able to be somewhere in the middle. It's OK to like Apple, but still be critical of some decisions that they make.

But why does it matter what Apple's overall profit is though? And how is that relevant to if an iPad specifically is a ripoff or not; the topic of the thread.

I will go back to my example if one thinks it costs Lenovo or Dell anywhere near $1,000-1,500 too build their premium level laptops; assuming buying direct from them no middle man and not the budget units they make $15 on and sell for $500-600. The premium level products to match Apple's. Surely not. They just don't sell nearly as many laptops per manufacturer as Apple does iPads; not even close. Hence why Apple has higher profits as a company than any other- mass volume.

That's also factoring in that Apple's margins aren't 100% either. Just because it costs $300 to build/assemble an iPad isnt the only cost factored into a product. R&D, operations, salaries, store operating costs, etc are all split among the products sold as well. So that iPad that costs $300 in parts and assembly and sells for $500, may really only yield $200 of profit to Apple at the end of the day- a 66% margin.

It doesn't mean Apple's per unit sold profits are any more though such that the iPad is somehow a ripoff. It's just bad logic by narrow-minded people.
 
Believe me there is no point in citing facts. If you look back I've cited numerous examples over 4 or 5 posts of markups in the hundreds and thousands of percent- clothing, groceries, eating out, coffee- marked up 300-400-500 up to 4,000%!!

That simple thing like the Coke at the fast food drive through? Marked up 1,400% from $.05-.10 to $1.30-1.50. Same with the vending machine, marked up easily 1,000%. Bottled water? 4000% markup from cost. Consumer goods markups are littered on Google if one made any effort.

So Apple marks up their products a whopping 100% (about $300 to build the 32gb as the Air 2 16gb was $275, and sell for $599) and everyone loses their minds in a frenzy.

It's hypocritical at best. Apple has the least markup of many many items one buys in the course of their daily life. But I dont see any Aquafina/Coke/etc protests!

The trolls just ignore facts and only harp on the "no you were so childish first!" and "oh you're just an Apple fanboy/apologist" as comebacks because they have no answer/rebuttal to the facts. It's the 5 year old argument- kid 1 state fact; kid 2 "oh yeh oh yeh, well you smell! I win!"

Right there is the issue. And this is the problem with social media and the narcissistic generation that has grown up with it. Everyone believes their opinion is more valid than anyone else and feels the compulsion to shout the loudest and **** down any dissenting points with accusations in this case of "trolls", "whingers" etc. The discussion about grocery products or Coke is completely irrelevant here, a total non-sequitur. Why? Because the discussion is about Apple! If you want to discuss mark ups on other products, go right ahead. And plenty by the way have protested against supermarket and food company mark ups. Ask Farmers and the c**p they have to put up with with big supermarkets.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If somebody feels they're being ripped off by Apple then that's their prerogative. Accusations of whining, trolling etc are ridiculous, but of course people are in turn entitled to state those opinions also! But for the sake of reasoned debate you'd hope for a more, I suppose, mature discussion?

The bottom line really is, it's a great time to be a consumer in this field. The competition has caught up with Apple and really forcing Apple to be even better. The days with Mac OSX for example was light years ahead of XP and Vista are long gone and that's great for consumers because there's more choice. Apple and Samsung are pushing each other constantly by putting out great phones and we're the real winners here.
 
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Right there is the issue. And this is the problem with social media and the narcissistic generation that has grown up with it. Everyone believes their opinion is more valid than anyone else and feels the compulsion to shout the loudest and **** down any dissenting points with accusations in this case of "trolls", "whingers" etc. The discussion about grocery products or Coke is completely irrelevant here, a total non-sequitur. Why? Because the discussion is about Apple! If you want to discuss mark ups on other products, go right ahead. And plenty by the way have protested against supermarket and food company mark ups. Ask Farmers and the c**p they have to put up with with big supermarkets.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If somebody feels they're being ripped off by Apple then that's their prerogative. Accusations of whining, trolling etc are ridiculous, but of course people are in turn entitled to state those opinions also! But for the sake of reasoned debate you'd hope for a more, I suppose, mature discussion?

The bottom line really is, it's a great time to be a consumer in this field. The competition has caught up with Apple and really forcing Apple to be even better. The days with Mac OSX for example was light years ahead of XP and Vista are long gone and that's great for consumers because there's more choice. Apple and Samsung are pushing each other constantly by putting out great phones and we're the real winners here.

When did I ever say OP or the topic was whiney? Never.

The people who are "whiney and trolling" are the ones who come in and blindly call others fanboy or Apple apologists for stating facts contrary to the thread position; who ARE happy with their iPad and see the value.

As you stated, both sides are entitled to their opinion, thus people are free to see value in the item without being called fanboy or Apple apologist. I was responding to THAT trolling specifically that name calling to the "pro Apple side" that was incurring before I said a word here; not that discussing the actual topic was whiney or trolling.

Again, to the topic, Im still unsure how a company with under a 100% profit margin is ripping anyone off though, on a luxury item to begin with, when you pay way higher markup on your daily goods. Those companies are ripping you off a lot worse; just in smaller doses. It doesn't make it "ok" because it's in smaller doses of ripoff.

Johnny consumer only sees the $599+ price and says omg that's ridiculous, but forgets it doesn't cost Apple $100 to make them; then, yes, $599+ is a ripoff if the company is making 600% or more profit in artificial markup. But people quickly forget the units cost $300+ each in cost ($300 for the base model) to build.

But when presented with facts like that bottle of water is 4000% markup from cost (you know water you need to live, not just a luxury item) somehow dont go on a rant Aquafina/Dasani/etc is ripping them off.... It's the Apple syndrome.

And back to point 1 that it's a luxury item and no one HAS to buy one if they thinks its subjectively a ripoff. More than enough people think it's worth it as sales show, and to many its a work tool to make more money as well as casual usage.

OP's premise is flawed to begin with as well. First, you dont NEED all of the accessories to use the iPad; you could just buy an iPad. That's like saying you can't buy a car, and it's not usable, without the $800 GPS option. Its gravy on top if you can afford it. Second, and more importantly, his country's high sales tax (1/3rd it looks like) has nothing to do with Apple and is not Apple's decision or doing. Blaming the wrong person to begin with.
 
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The Silicone Case & Smart Cover are definitely overpriced.

Yes, they have always been over priced, and their quality is not reflected by the cost. Have you seen what they're doing for the new iPad Pro covers? You now have to buy the front and the back of the case separately, so they're actually charging twice as much for their case. Fortunately there are many other more reasonably priced options in the market for a case. As a consumer you get to vote with your wallet.
 
You keep using the same example about fast food fountain drink markup and individual price items. Sure McDonalds charges $1.00 for a nickel coke....but then they also have razor thin if not loss margins on things on their dollar menu and that margin makes up other costs they incur. But when you get the financial sheet of all of those companies, no Fortune 100 company is pulling anything close to the profit margin of Apple...nobody.

But that's really not the point. I agree they aren't ripping anybody off in that no one is forced to buy their products. It's their right to price their products as they see fit. It's each consumers right to make a purchasing decision.

To me it's more about providing a premium value/experience for the prices they charge. Apple is they are no longer providing the quality of hardware/software or innovation in new products that they used to. There seems to be an even deeper cutting of corners on old products (stubbornly sticking with 16 gig base memory, 5400 iMac hard rives, fusion drives with smaller SSDs), lack of innovation in new products (just making bigger/smaller tablets/phones), head scratching decisions on new products (single port MacBook, sluggish Apple Watch) and creating cheaply spec'd/performing entry level products (new Mac Mini and iMac).

I had no problem paying a premium when Apple created innovative products 'that just work'. But I think it's fair to question when Apple slips for the lofty expectations they created.

That doesn't mean I'm an Apple hater or troll. (This is where I'd normally get the 'go buy something else!') It's just that I'd like to see them to return to being great. I like Apple products, or I wouldn't have bought them. To often we have this 'defender vs hater' attitude about everything (sports, products, politics) rather than being able to be somewhere in the middle. It's OK to like Apple, but still be critical of some decisions that they make.


I still think that Apple are great in the sense that they do still make great products. Some, like the silicone cases and underwhelming charger included with the Pro are taking the proverbial and a step too far. We don't get to choose the charger (as a pack-in option) so were stuffed there, but I certainly won't be giving Apple any of my money for over priced, under quality cases.

I do agree with you also on things like only including a single USB-C port on the MacBook. But should we expect anything less from the company who killed floppy drives, then CD/DVD drives. It does however reek of bean counting cheapness to a degree, passing on the burden of expansion cost to we, the consumer yet again.

But hardware wise they still put out solid efforts and they do still manage the occasional innovation, though I shudder to use that word as the improvements are still incremental.

I think part of the problem is, there's not much of anywhere left to go for now. Until there's some more technological breakthroughs. All they can do is put out incrementally better hardware.

But in my experience at least, the build quality and reliability that made me an Apple customer in the first place is still there. I wouldn't be buying their products otherwise. I don't agree with all of their decisions, or some of their pricing structures. But compared to the competition, I'd still rather buy Apple for the overall experience.
 
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I get people being Apple fans. But they seem to forget the somewhat natural adversarial relationship between consumers wanting to pay as little as possible and companies wanting to charge as much as possible that makes capitalism work.
Its not an adverserial relationship--its a free market relationship. Apple can sell ipads for $10,000 usd and you can buy amazon or google products. Internet companies like Verizon have special regulatory relationships with governments--they are not completely free market agents
 
I have the 12.9" pro 128gb. If I only keep it for one year it equals out to be about $2 a day for the cost of the iPad. Less if I keep it longer. Seems like a good deal to me for something that I use quite a bit through out the day, both for work and leisure.
 
A total rip off and Apple's lame attempt to boost income from diminishing sales of the iPad...it was so obvious from the way Phil & Co. tried to convince that it was a must upgrade for iPad and laptop owners. Sorry but iOS is far from matching the features of a true desktop OS when it comes to doing real work unless your "real work" needs are not at all demanding.
I'm sticking to my perfectly capable 2012 iPad 4 for content consumption and light work and use my rMBP for the real work.
I'll wait for 3D touch to arrive to the iPad before finally upgrading.
 
in Canada where I live for just the ipad alone it was also around $1400.
It's overpriced but it's also quite the luxury tablet.

Stop devalueing your currency: canadien dollar now trading at .70 usd. It was at parity in 2012. I love Canada, but being paid in Monopoly money is driving me back to US
 
Yes, they have always been over priced, and their quality is not reflected by the cost. Have you seen what they're doing for the new iPad Pro covers? You now have to buy the front and the back of the case separately, so they're actually charging twice as much for their case. Fortunately there are many other more reasonably priced options in the market for a case. As a consumer you get to vote with your wallet.


The case situation is just ridiculous. If they had at least kept making them of leather it might not sting so much.

I got (for review I'll admit, but I'd gladly pay for it if I hadn't) a beautiful, real leather case, which costs half of what Apple want us to pay for bloody silicone. I know we're all entitled to our preferences and opinions, I'm the first to say an individual's opinion is all that matters to them and that's that. By all means if they're what you want, buy them and be happy with them.

But surely you need to be crazy to pay considerably more money for less quality and that's something I never thought I'd say in relation to an Apple product.
 
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Unfortunately Macrumors has become the home of countless Apple trolls who have nothing better to do with their lives than interrupt other people discussing Apple products or looking for help, and then calling them fanbois or apologists.

I think the fanbois/troll ratio is about 2 to 1. Makes for good reading.
 
A total rip off and Apple's lame attempt to boost income from diminishing sales of the iPad...it was so obvious from the way Phil & Co. tried to convince that it was a must upgrade for iPad and laptop owners. Sorry but iOS is far from matching the features of a true desktop OS when it comes to doing real work unless your "real work" needs are not at all demanding.
I'm sticking to my perfectly capable 2012 iPad 4 for content consumption and light work and use my rMBP for the real work.
I'll wait for 3D touch to arrive to the iPad before finally upgrading.


I actually get a not inconsiderable amount of real work done on mine. I use it daily for work, something I've never done with any of my other iPads. So it does depend as you say on each persons needs. But just by getting work done on mine where I didn't before makes it better value for money *to me*
[doublepost=1459697582][/doublepost]
I think the fanbois/troll ratio is about 2 to 1. Makes for good reading.


Besides, we have dedicated help forums here where I go to help people. The rest, well, that's where the fun happens :D
 
I actually get a not inconsiderable amount of real work done on mine. I use it daily for work, something I've never done with any of my other iPads. So it does depend as you say on each persons needs. But just by getting work done on mine where I didn't before makes it better value for money *to me*
[doublepost=1459697582][/doublepost]


Besides, we have dedicated help forums here where I go to help people. The rest, well, that's where the fun happens :D
Well I envy you if you can get your "real" work done on the iPad, would swap my laptop in an instant!
 
Well I envy you if you can get your "real" work done on the iPad, would swap my laptop in an instant!


Curious that you over emphasise the "real" there. It is what I'd consider real work. I write up multi-page reviews, technical reports, I do artwork for my apps, write up some code to transfer into Xcode later and work on websites. Maybe that's not real work to you, but since my accident it's what I have to do.

I'll give you, not everything can get done on it, there's always a need for a desktop/laptop. But I'm finding that need is constantly diminishing.
But that's even what Apple said back at the launch timeframe of the first Pro. A Mac when you need it and an iPad when you don't. I kind of agree with that.
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Irony FTW! :D

Hello rony, me Stuart :D

*Edit
Not my best work ever, but hey, I've not slept in three days and I'm doped up on morphine, gabapentin, carbamazepine and soooooo many more. The quality is bound to slide :D
 
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