Apple Knowingly Sold 2016-17 MacBook Pro Models With 'Flexgate' Display Defect, Judge Says

[Johnny907]

Yes, yes they did. And until Apple stops lying about these defects, covering them up and extorting the repair costs from unsuspecting, trusting customers I don’t care about any of their other social justice initiatives be it diversity in hiring or their renewable energy pledges. You can’t be completely morally bankrupt in one part of your business and expect anyone to believe you magically care and have ethics involved in any other aspect of it.
Apple can afford to do the right thing everywhere from top to bottom now, so the fact they choose not to is clear proof that they are rotten from the top down, and that needs to change.

 

[sbuntin]

Apple would never pull this prank under the last Honcho

Apple has always been very secretive about design and manufacturing flaws. It is and has been standard policy not to acknowledge a flaw unless and until a repair program is announced. This is exactly how Apple would have responded under Jobs.

 

[ksec]

The problem isn't Flexgate or Butterfly keyboard per se ( Although it is indeed a big problem )

It is how Apple deleted the thread in the official forum, while claiming there are no evidence of such problem until Mainsteam media pick up the news either their editor or writer had the problem themselves ( as with Keyboard ), or it became wide spread enough with concrete evidence ( Flexgate from Louis Rossmann ).

All while charging or price gouging customers for a new laptop or expensive repair.

 

[ksec]

Apple has always been very secretive about design and manufacturing flaws. It is and has been standard policy not to acknowledge a flaw unless and until a repair program is announced. This is exactly how Apple would have responded under Jobs.

True, but in the old days, Apple would have already marked the issue in their internal database, ( That was the whole purpose of Genius Bar, to collect first hand issues from customers using their products ) offering free repair as good gesture ( when it was their fault, which is still ok ) or cheaper repair than it normally would. And then announce the programme later. i.e At least "something is done". Right now I dont see that happening.

( Not with Nvidia GPU case though which is a different story )

 

[ProVideo]

I think we all know the truth here.
A company like Apple does the maths of the financials.

What's cheaper?
Stop selling the product, re-engineer the bad design flaw, then re-release the fixed design?
Or simply carry on selling as is, deny the issue and simply pay to fix the machines which show the problem?

I'm guessing that the second option is of course the easiest to do, and probably the cheapest option also.
Plus it avoids the negative publicity of having to stop selling/issue a recall.

 

[GonzoMKL 1969]

It is always great to see information about Plaintiffs and judges who are not able to use a simple search function in google search. You can search the Apple Support Forums and you will see all entries with Flexgate in it, none has been deleted. In the support Forums only Posts are deleted that are abusive or discriminatory etc.
In Addition, no person with just a hint of technical knowledge could assume, that in a presales quality testing it would be possible to find all technical issues that might appear years later. Some issues will be found and will be changed before the production starts, others will not and will be fixed when the issue appears.

 

[ian87w]

You see shady moderator behavior on every forum, so it’s not surprising.

On a public forum moderated by volunteers, can't do much about it. But this is a forum on Apple's own website. And apparently it becomes a point in this case. So maybe Apple should look into that, considering Apple is a company that supposedly care about branding.

 

[ian87w]

Apple has always been very secretive about design and manufacturing flaws. It is and has been standard policy not to acknowledge a flaw unless and until a repair program is announced. This is exactly how Apple would have responded under Jobs.

There's the famous antennagate for sure. However, in terms of Macs, seems like there were more winning stories that I read back then about Apple's customer service. Of course, Apple wasn't as big as they are today...

 

[lkrupp]

"carried out stress tests and other procedures that would have alerted Apple to defects". and if the stress tests did not alert Apple to the "Problem"? How can a legal finding not be based on facts. How about entering the reports of the stress testing as evidence, did they show the problem? It is very common for actual problems to arise from factors not included in the stress test. Over extending the hinges, chemical exposures, thermal stresses. Admittedly, the test suite should cover all likely exposures, but if they didn't, then it was not known. Seriously, this judge is stretching things

This reminds me of the a-hats that post about a bug in macOs or something else. “Apple should have picked this up in testing” goes the rant. I spent 34 years in an AT&T central office maintaining the telephone switch with almost daily software patches and updates. The old saying was that you couldn't know if there are any more bugs until the public got its hands on it as they will find them in an instant.

The bottomline is that here is yet another public servant (the judge) who doesn’t know diddly squat about technology making decisions based on ignorance. Just the other day there was a report about some politician raking Mark Zuckerberg over the coals about Google. Zuckerberg had to remind him that Facebook does not own Google.

 

[atomic.flip]

"carried out stress tests and other procedures that would have alerted Apple to defects". and if the stress tests did not alert Apple to the "Problem"? How can a legal finding not be based on facts. How about entering the reports of the stress testing as evidence, did they show the problem? It is very common for actual problems to arise from factors not included in the stress test. Over extending the hinges, chemical exposures, thermal stresses. Admittedly, the test suite should cover all likely exposures, but if they didn't, then it was not known. Seriously, this judge is stretching things

Hey, it’s really simple. Customers in volume report a problem with a product. Support engineers receive requests for repair or replacement. The fact those reports are documented is sufficient evidence that Apple was aware of the problem. The stress tests are subjective but not irrelevant. Apple had every opportunity to investigate and remedy the situation. But someone determined it was not a cause worth pursuing and now the customers are appropriately seeking remedy by other means.

For once a judge is using simple and sound reasoning.

Frankly, to even suggest that it’s possible for Apple to successfully mount a defense on “how could we possibly know” or “we weren’t aware” is foolish. Even if they only became aware a year after the manufacture and sale of the products they still are obligated to honor the sales / support contract.

For all of Samsung’s faults when the battery fiasco happened during the release of the Note 7 they addressed the matter in a truly world class manner. It didn’t require a damn lawsuit to get them to do the right thing. Apple should take note.

 

[atomic.flip]

This reminds me of the a-hats that post about a bug in macOs or something else. “Apple should have picked this up in testing” goes the rant. I spent 34 years in an AT&T central office maintaining the telephone switch with almost daily software patches and updates. The old saying was that you couldn't know if there are any more bugs until the public got its hands on it as they will find them in an instant.

The bottomline is that here is yet another public servant (the judge) who doesn’t know diddly squat about technology making decisions based on ignorance. Just the other day there was a report about some politician raking Mark Zuckerberg over the coals about Google. Zuckerberg had to remind him that Facebook does not own Google.

Wow and you even have the gall to defend Zuckerberg? That’s not suspicious at all. LOL

 

[atomic.flip]

Yes, yes they did. And until Apple stops lying about these defects, covering them up and extorting the repair costs from unsuspecting, trusting customers I don’t care about any of their other social justice initiatives be it diversity in hiring or their renewable energy pledges. You can’t be completely morally bankrupt in one part of your business and expect anyone to believe you magically care and have ethics involved in any other aspect of it.
Apple can afford to do the right thing everywhere from top to bottom now, so the fact they choose not to is clear proof that they are rotten from the top down, and that needs to change.

how much does Apple donate to help fight poverty? Oh yeah that’s right. Poor people aren’t customers. LOL. 😅

 

[atomic.flip]

That's not entirely fair. The other difference with Apple is the army of haters pouncing on any opportunity to criticise them. Essentially, anything they do, good or bad, is more visible than when another company does it. They get more defenders, more accolades, but also more attackers, more criticism.

Poor poor Trillion dollar apple. They probably need the fanboys to act as a choir since they clearly can’t afford the string orchestra to play all those sad sad violins.

 

[Blackstick]

Ah yes, the stage light effect!

 

[atomic.flip]

Imagine spending the premium that Apple products demand only to get something that is no better than a cheap off the shelf Asus. I'd be furious. Shame on Apple. Yes, every company probably does this sort of shady **** but they are not Apple. Apple are supposed to be better than this. They charge a premium for their products and there should be zero chance of this type of thing with them.

honestly it doesn’t matter what they charge for their products. It only matters that they honor their sales and support contracts. This was a case where they clearly did not and now it will cost them both financially and perceptively.

 

[H2SO4]

Deleting all those threads on their forums about flexgate is soo shady on Apple’s part! Wow! Screams poor CS too! (Not something Apple is known for, thankfully)

Not just Flexgate. They routinely delete negative posts and it's the main reason I stopped using them.
There are some regulars there that act like the 'forum police' and will report you very quickly.
Apple are so disingenuous on that forum, they say they don't run it, (or used to say that), to distance themselves from it.

 

[lkrupp]

“IN TIM CROOK WE TRUST”

So here’s the perfect example. How many users were affected by this? Be prepared to prove it with factual data, not anecdotal hearsay. How many plaintiffs are there in this suit?

Second, the majority of posts here are accusing Apple of every kind of skullduggery possible. If Apple’s customer service is so bad why are sales and growth continuing to advance? Why did Apple sell more phones than Samsung last quarter? Is it because only stupid people buy Apple products? The bigger question is why those of you who think Apple is the personification of evil and Tim Cook is a crook, why are you still an Apple customer? And don't say its because they make great products as you have declared those products to be garbage now. And if you are not an Apple customer but joined just so you could trash Apple and throw shade at them then please be honest and admit it.

I don’t expect to get any rational replies but I had to ask anyway.

 

[atomic.flip]

Sounds like you'd be a great witness


They should have, but in simulated testing it may not have show up as a problem as its not every MacBook that displays the symptoms.


There are machines that simulate real world tasks like pressing buttons, opening and closing lids etc ... 1000's of times.

But

Lets assume for a second that Apple did testing on MacBooks that simulate the opening and closing of a MacBook lets say 20,000 times (Appx opening and closing 10 times per day over 6 years).

Lets just say all units passed the stress tests.

Lets assume that they have the documentation to prove it.

Lets just say that the backlight issue has only started affecting a small percentage of users after 3 years.

The question I have, is how long can a company be held responsible for an roll-of-the-dice issue that did not affect test machines ?

The Judge appears to be taking the side of the plaintiff based on deleted forum comments.

I'm not taking sides on this as Apple has had numerous issues in the past from the Powerbook Hinges "Exploding" ... original MacBook's keyboard yellowing and Cracking, the butterfly issues among other problems.

But it'll be an interesting case as the plaintiff will need to prove that Apple knowingly sent out this model with the likelihood it would fail eventually.

I'd take a stab that the outcome will be that Apple will replace this cable or complete display on all affected MacBooks free for the next 3-4 years.

They should not be held account any longer than the warranty offered at the time of sale dictates. Even if they know with 100% certainty that the units will fail exactly 3 years and one week from the date of sale, if their warranty period is 3 years from sale then anyone who reports or experiences a problem on day 1096 from the date of purchase then they are flat out of luck. Apple has kept their side of the bargain.

 

[atomic.flip]

So here’s the perfect example. How many users were affected by this? Be prepared to prove it with factual data, not anecdotal hearsay. How many plaintiffs are there in this suit?

Second, the majority of posts here are accusing Apple of every kind of skullduggery possible. If Apple’s customer service is so bad why are sales and growth continuing to advance? Why did Apple sell more phones than Samsung last quarter? Is it because only stupid people buy Apple products? The bigger question is why those of you who think Apple is the personification of evil and Tim Cook is a crook, why are you still an Apple customer? And don't say its because they make great products as you have declared those products to be garbage now. And if you are not an Apple customer but joined just so you could trash Apple and throw shade at them then please be honest and admit it.

I don’t expect to get any rational replies but I had to ask anyway.

I honestly don’t get people who have their noses so far up all these corporations’ orifices’ that they can’t tell when a single thing they might do “smells” a bit fishy. Why? You’re effectively treating the companies and their leaderships like royalty and even royalty never truly deserved that sort of adulation.

If someone makes the sort of money Tim Cook makes and so on then they can afford criticism of all sorts. You can’t “have it all.”

 

[CthuluLemon]

So what do they do about the piss yellow and green tint issue on the iPhone 12 series 🤔

Should I wait for a big payout? 😂

Your best hope is Apple’s traditional M.O.:
1. Deny the problem is widespread, “only affecting a small number of users.”
2. Continue to deny the significance of the problem while launching an extensive repair program.
3. Lose in civil court for ignoring the problem for so long, receive a slap on the wrist from the court.

 

[Mr. Dee]

I bought a 2017 Touchbar model for my brother and I haven’t heard any complaints since, knock on wood. But I remember purchasing my Early 2015 MacBook Pro 13 inch and within the space of one month, the lamination started stripping. Didn’t get replaced until they implemented a replacement program in 2018. I just think Apple knows about these issues in development but sometimes turns a blind eye to meet deadlines and RDF themselves into thinking it’s a minority.

 

[lkrupp]

I honestly don’t get people who have their noses so far up all these corporations’ orifices’ that they can’t tell when a single thing they might do “smells” a bit fishy. Why? You’re effectively treating the companies and their leaderships like royalty and even royalty never truly deserved that sort of adulation.

If someone makes the sort of money Tim Cook makes and so on then they can afford criticism of all sorts. You can’t “have it all.”

I knew you wouldn’t answer the question, just obfuscate and avoid. Why are you an Apple customer?

 

[TraceyS/FL]

If only this helped my 2017 iPad 12.9 screen with the same issue.

 

[9927036]

I think we all know the truth here.
A company like Apple does the maths of the financials.

What's cheaper?
Stop selling the product, re-engineer the bad design flaw, then re-release the fixed design?
Or simply carry on selling as is, deny the issue and simply pay to fix the machines which show the problem?

I'm guessing that the second option is of course the easiest to do, and probably the cheapest option also.
Plus it avoids the negative publicity of having to stop selling/issue a recall.

Apple has done the maths of the financials for many products and problems. Nothing new as you say.

 

[sracer]

Your best hope is Apple’s traditional M.O.:
1. Deny the problem is widespread, “only affecting a small number of users.”
2. Continue to deny the significance of the problem while launching an extensive repair program.
3. Lose in civil court for ignoring the problem for so long, receive a slap on the wrist from the court.

Hey, that's my shtick!

Apple cycle of dealing with issues


Here's the typical cycle for problems reported on Apple products:
1. A few members post reports of the problem, report it to Apple
2. No response from Apple
3. Increased number of people report the issue
4. No response from Apple
5. Apple apologists dismiss the reports as very rare, the result of trolling, or exaggeration by drama queens
6. Even more reports of the problem
7. No response from Apple
8. News of the problem hits blogs
9. Apple apologists dismiss the blogs as simply engaging in clickbait
10. No response from Apple
11. Those affected by the issue threaten a class-action lawsuit
12. Apple apologists decry the "sue happy" nature of American consumers
13. Apple acknowledges the legitimacy of the problem
14. Apple apologists are silent
15. Apple release an update to correct the problem
or
15. They set up a "program" to address the problem.
16. Apple gains some positive publicity
17. Apple apologists applaud Apple for doing the "right thing". (for an issue that they said from day-1 was not actually an issue)
18. First hand experience with the “program” reveals very strict guidelines and restrictions that greatly reduce the number of affected customers that can participate in the program.