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Apple Legal Reportedly Hinders Reporter's Investigation of iPods Catching Fire
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My old iPod Color 20Gb was getting very hot. I had the Best Buy extended warranty and they sent it in. They called me and said they had to replace the iPod with a brand new iPod video at the time 
becasue the inside back was melted. They asked if I minded receiving a new one. My reaction was of course helll yeah I'll take a free upgrade.
becasue the inside back was melted. They asked if I minded receiving a new one. My reaction was of course helll yeah I'll take a free upgrade.
Sure... it's for our own good.
We're not asking that Apple have this info on the front page and emailed around to everyone; but for Apple to (allegedly) attempt to repress this info is GROSSLY irresponsible.
Having seen two MBPs lift off the desk due to bulging batteries, and the power adaptor cable melting on one of those machines, I think I'd prefer to have all the info and make the choice for myself, thanks all the same Apple.
To everyone who are trying to defend Apple by saying "15 iPod out of millions "
Let's imagine you had 1 of these 15 units and you gave it to your 10 years old child . He/she went into his/her room. And you went for supermarket. He/she slept while listening music and iPod started to burn.
You came back home which was on fire. Your child is an unfortunate victim of smoke. I'm sure you would not feel angry about Apple because you love it and it is just 15 out of millions.
Let's imagine you had 1 of these 15 units and you gave it to your 10 years old child . He/she went into his/her room. And you went for supermarket. He/she slept while listening music and iPod started to burn.
You came back home which was on fire. Your child is an unfortunate victim of smoke. I'm sure you would not feel angry about Apple because you love it and it is just 15 out of millions.
Are you more concerned about the batteries or Apple legal's incident that now gets blown out of proportion?
Screaming FUD sounds like you just want to cover your ears and ignore everything. Any sort of criticism gets called FUD nowadays.
Why would I be concerned about the batteries when it's what, 15 (alleged claims) out of well over 100 million?? What exactly is there to be concerned about??
Yes, I'm more concerned about how something like this gets blown way out of proportion. This kind of FUD always concerns me. The spreads of FUD itself is an interesting phenomenon.
And what are the odds of that same child being hit by a car or snatched from the street?
If you think that way you will be living in fear your whole life.
That really isn't the point.
Let's imagine more hypothetical, unsubstantiated scenarios. We don't even know what the circumstances of these claims were, much less whether they were bogus to begin with.
Let's imagine I DON'T have one of these units and nor does my child because I or my child would probably get hit by lightning before one of those allegedly defective/damaged units gets into our hands.
Let's instead talk about something that might actually happen.
You don’t know how much I want Apple to fail again. ‘90-style. They’ve seen the piles of money and now act like a**holes.
Nananananana…
Yeah? What’s the point? Please enlighten us.
You can scream “there is a chance in 10 million” all day, it doesn’t change the fact that this CAN happen to you. You could be the unlucky one. But Apple makes shiny gadgets and loves you, so all questions and assumptions should be forwarded to /dev/null.
Exactly.
Arguments that the battery isn't Apple's responsibility is ludicrous. Apple decides who to source parts from so it is their responsibility if they blow up. I don't call WD when the HD in my DVR fails - it's Verizon's responsibility.
All the discussions of FUD and percentages is really tertiary (it is truly small amount but not negligible). If this weren't a big deal then Apple should not be hampering an investigation (all alleged at this point) and should be held accountable if they attempted it.
Agreed. In looking at KIRO-TV's report, it appears that the vast majority of the thermal incidents occurred while the device was being charged, which suggests an excessive voltage issue. Also, let's also keep in mind that the incidents are from 2005-present, so the 15 reports are more along the lines of ~4 per year.
That's your opinion, which you're entitled to.
However, Title 5 USC § 552(b) is quite clear that there are information categories that are exempt from FOIA requests. It is the legal responsibility of the Gov't Agency to conduct their business in accordance with these Title 5 disclosure ... and non-disclosure ... requirements.
What appears to have happened is that the CPSC wasn't doing a good job of conforming to Title 5 USC § 552(b) requirements. Apple Legal got involved to compell the CPSC to follow the law like they're supposed to.
To blame "Apple Legal" merely illustrates an ignorance of the USA's FOIA laws.
And for this to be done by a so-called journalist merely illustrates their degree of personal unprofessionalism...and this lack of professionalism applies double to whoever the anonymous Editor/Manager was who approved the story.
To help these journalistic hacks be less wrong next time, the full FOIA disclosure & exemption list (see section (b) ) can be found right here.
-hh
Let's imagine you bought one of these 15 units, your ten year old kid took it to school, and then the poor child is shot by some maniac kid who borrowed his dad's semi automatic and went on a killing spree.
Which one is more likely to happen?
Statistics: If you have your car parked right at the Apple Store, intending to buy an iPod for your child, read the article and drive with your child to another store 5 miles away to buy a Zune instead, it is statistically more likely that your kid dies in a car crash during these miles than your kid getting one of the 15 dangerous iPods.
Your computer could have been hit by lightning and you could have died at the keyboard while typing that post. Every worried about the chances of that?
You take a "one in 10 million" chance tp die every single time you drive your car for about five miles. Well, I encounter people every day who take a higher risk than that
You need to think reasonably about risk. You can buy an iPod and enjoy it for years, and it is possible that this decision will kill you. You can call your wife on your way home from work on your mobile phone to tell her that you are late. That action is ten times more likely to kill you than using an iPod for many years.
Ultimately it's a question of responsibility: what could Apple reasonably do to prevent the problem?
The statistics again have to be mentioned. If only 15 out of 175,000,000 will show the phenomenon, how is this supposed to be found in testing? Apple could test over 11 million units and not see the problem. Would the testing process destroy these millions of iPods, make them unsellable? And when they finally make one ignite, what valid, repeatable engineering conclusions could be obtained from a practically non-repeatable test result? It's a wild goose chase.
True, but that's not the problem with this story. The problem is that Apple is (allegedly) trying to suppress information regarding problems with the batteries.
If buyers were informed of the dangers, bought a laptop/iPod/iPhone anyhow and ended up having a battery related accident, I would have some sympathy with Apple - ensuring every last 3rd-party battery is flawless out of the millions they use is virtually impossible.
If Apple suppressed information about the dangers of batteries such as these, and people buy unaware of the dangers, then I'd love to see Apple get screwed for billions in court over it.
I am not suggesting that Apple can reasonably prevent every battery mishap. I would assume they do thorough testing. What I do disagree with is that they are now free from accountability/blame if batteries blow up. Who should the consumer blame and seek compensation from? Apple selects their vendors and does due diligence because they are well aware that they are responsible to their buyers, not the battery manufacturers.
If you admit Apple couldn't have prevented it, blaming them is arbitrary and unfair.
Your lifetime risk of being struck by lightning is one in 5,000, so you're thousands of times more likely to feel a spark from the sky than from an iPod in your pants. You couldn't sue anybody if you got struck by lightning, but if something random happens with a manufactured product, its maker is automatically to blame, even if they did everything reasonable to make it safe? The random harm should be automatically shared by the manufacturer? Why?
Apple might be wise to offer money to victims because it's nice and good PR, but it would be completely unreasonable to hold them legally responsible unless we're okay with the law to being as random and unfair as life is.
Actually the number - and it is tiny - is irrelevant. The main issue is whether or not Apple's legal department tried to block the investigation and, if so, they were justified in doing it.
So should victims seek compensation from the battery manufacturer? Surely you jest.
Apple assembles and chooses their vendors. They are the responsible party. If firestone makes bad tires and Ford puts them on their explorers and you're injured, you sue ford. Sure they didnt make these bad tires, but guess what? it's ford's job to deal with firestone.
No one is denying that Apple doesnt want to tarnish their customer satisfaction while maximizing profits, but **** happens sometimes when trying to do so. so to remove them from accountability in matters like this is is nothing more than zealotry.
Anyways the topic isnt what they could have done to prevent these incidents. The topic is were they really trying to prevent the press from getting information necessary to cover the story properly.
And this was adressed in this very thread, in that Apple was only protecting it's right under article 5 of the FOIA. They were basically asking for conformance to the law, not trying to subvert it.
This whole story is a troll post.
It appears IMO that what Apple Legal did was to assure that the Government Agency in question simply did not violate Public Law No. 104-231, 110 Stat. 3048 ... specifically the non-disclosure elements of FOIA as detailed in Title 5 USC § 552(b).
YMMV, but I think that its hard to argue that it isn't a justifiable action to make sure that a Government Agency follows the law.
-hh
EDIT: thanks, KnightWRX ... you beat me to it.
Here's the URL again: http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm
I'm suggesting that sometimes bad things happen and no one is responsible, because no one could have done anything about it. The fair way to mitigate unforeseen risk is to carry insurance and file a claim when something bad happens.
It's not zealotry for Apple, to advocate that there should be no penalty when there is no actual negligence. it's zealotry for personal responsibility. The culture of liability in the United States has devolved to one of entitlement, where victims are told that whomever can be connected to misfortune should pay for it, regardless of whether that party acted properly or not.
If Apple did what they should, and could, have done before the fact, it's unjust to punish them after the fact. It's not unjust to leave the victim with no one to blame when there is no one at fault.
Shame on Apple! Invest in proper product development, not legal tricks!
Man, you redefine the term 'fanboy'! Here, Apple tried to prevent the public from knowing, that one of their products was dangerous. Not every iPod burst to flames, but the battery was unsafe and it could happen to several. I think the consumers are entitled to know.
What a nasty bully Apple become! Their legal team is so powerful, whilst they save money on everything, really. Cheap plastic, ordinary PC parts, oppressed employees at their sweatshop-like subcontractors...
Yes, the battery wasn't manufactured by Apple. Nothing is. But they make the orders, they choose between various products and they control quality. Not blaming them for this is excessively naive. For trying everything to save their a@@ on the expenses of consumers' safety is just nasty and sadly, fairly typical of Apple. They become worse than Microsoft.
Man, you redefine the term 'fanboy'! Here, Apple tried to prevent the public from knowing, that one of their products was dangerous. Not every iPod burst to flames, but the battery was unsafe and it could happen to several. I think the consumers are entitled to know.
What a nasty bully Apple become! Their legal team is so powerful, whilst they save money on everything, really. Cheap plastic, ordinary PC parts, oppressed employees at their sweatshop-like subcontractors...
Yes, the battery wasn't manufactured by Apple. Nothing is. But they make the orders, they choose between various products and they control quality. Not blaming them for this is excessively naive. For trying everything to save their a@@ on the expenses of consumers' safety is just nasty and sadly, fairly typical of Apple. They become worse than Microsoft.
This isn't about the sum total of all iPods shipped since the dawn of time, it's about the 1st gen iPod Nano, a model that was sold from 09/2005 to 09/2006 when it was replaced by the 2nd gen. In that timespan they sold 36 million iPods and the Nano was but one model, the others being the 1st gen Shuffle and the 5th gen iPod (a.k.a. iPod "Video"), plus clearance sale of the discontinued iPod Mini. So no, the number isn't far from those 14 million XBOX power cords at all.
2nd degree burns from iPods exploding in pockets don't qualify as injuries? So what exactly constitutes an injury? Is it when exploding earbuds blow people's heads off?
*I'm* not thinking clearly? In case you haven't noticed, this is no longer a hypothetical issue. They already recalled the Nano in Korea and acknowledged that it was due to faulty batteries. It's only a question of time before Apple will have to face the music in the EU and other more civilized parts of the world where corporations are held accountable for these things. And once they've recalled it everywhere else, it will be hard for Apple to convince Americans that the international market somehow magically got an entirely different 1st gen Nano than the U.S. did.
Oh please .....
This is a load of utter, complete B.S.
If you want to talk about countries with low safety standards, let's look at the places most consumer electronics get assembled.... China, for example.
If anything, U.S. companies get saddled with so many frivolous lawsuits, they're bound to over-compensate in the area of "safety" just to avoid as much of it as possible. That's why you see factories and manufacturing sites all across America having to spend money on things like medical firms coming in monthly, making sure exactly X number of band-aids and anti-bacterial creams are stocked in their first-aid kits, lest OSHA find them a few items short and slap them with a huge fine.
That's why you see lawnmower makers actually having to spend money to put warning labels on mowers, cautioning against such stupidity as holding the mower sideways, attempting to trim hedges, tree limbs, etc.
And that's also why you pay thousands more for your car in the U.S. than it would cost in most parts of the world. They're all loaded up with safety features like driver and passenger-side air-bags that add a LOT to the price, whether or not you want them. (Never mind they do more harm than good in situations like drivers with a small child in a car seat in the passenger seat. In that case, you have to remember to manually disable the air bag, if the option is even given to do so.)
Not to mention, we've pretty much universally decided it's a "good idea" to legislate safety. We let police hand out tickets for failure to wear a seat belt, or failure to put on a helmet when riding a motorcycle.
I can't speak for the specific situation with Ford and Volvo you mention -- but for whatever it's worth, I'm not too impressed with Ford's manufacturing quality anyway. I've owned 2 of their trucks, and both have had glaring flaws that were known for YEARS, yet never addressed in newer models. (My F-150 truck, for example, has a digital odometer that flickers off all the time. You can search online and find PLENTY of people with the same issue, dating all the way back to trucks they made in '99 or so. Always turns out to be poor solder joints on the circuit board, but Ford acts like it's a unique problem if you ask them about it -- and charges you about $700-800 for a whole new instrument cluster to fix it. Of course, that one will eventually fail too.)
High capacity rechargeable batteries are ALWAYS going to have some issues, due to current design. A certain, small percentage will overheat and explode, period. This has zero to do with Apple's product, and everything to do with the battery that powers it. The battery doesn't say "Hey, I'm in an Apple product! I've been waiting to get installed in an Apple product, so I can blow up!" If someone carries any product containing one of these batteries in their pocket or on a belt clip, there's a tiny risk that yes - it'll blow up and they'll get injured or burned.
I've heard of this with just about ALL popular cellphones. If they sold millions and you dig hard enough, you'll find isolated cases of this exact same issue with that phone.
This is a load of utter, complete B.S.
If you want to talk about countries with low safety standards, let's look at the places most consumer electronics get assembled.... China, for example.
If anything, U.S. companies get saddled with so many frivolous lawsuits, they're bound to over-compensate in the area of "safety" just to avoid as much of it as possible. That's why you see factories and manufacturing sites all across America having to spend money on things like medical firms coming in monthly, making sure exactly X number of band-aids and anti-bacterial creams are stocked in their first-aid kits, lest OSHA find them a few items short and slap them with a huge fine.
That's why you see lawnmower makers actually having to spend money to put warning labels on mowers, cautioning against such stupidity as holding the mower sideways, attempting to trim hedges, tree limbs, etc.
And that's also why you pay thousands more for your car in the U.S. than it would cost in most parts of the world. They're all loaded up with safety features like driver and passenger-side air-bags that add a LOT to the price, whether or not you want them. (Never mind they do more harm than good in situations like drivers with a small child in a car seat in the passenger seat. In that case, you have to remember to manually disable the air bag, if the option is even given to do so.)
Not to mention, we've pretty much universally decided it's a "good idea" to legislate safety. We let police hand out tickets for failure to wear a seat belt, or failure to put on a helmet when riding a motorcycle.
I can't speak for the specific situation with Ford and Volvo you mention -- but for whatever it's worth, I'm not too impressed with Ford's manufacturing quality anyway. I've owned 2 of their trucks, and both have had glaring flaws that were known for YEARS, yet never addressed in newer models. (My F-150 truck, for example, has a digital odometer that flickers off all the time. You can search online and find PLENTY of people with the same issue, dating all the way back to trucks they made in '99 or so. Always turns out to be poor solder joints on the circuit board, but Ford acts like it's a unique problem if you ask them about it -- and charges you about $700-800 for a whole new instrument cluster to fix it. Of course, that one will eventually fail too.)
High capacity rechargeable batteries are ALWAYS going to have some issues, due to current design. A certain, small percentage will overheat and explode, period. This has zero to do with Apple's product, and everything to do with the battery that powers it. The battery doesn't say "Hey, I'm in an Apple product! I've been waiting to get installed in an Apple product, so I can blow up!" If someone carries any product containing one of these batteries in their pocket or on a belt clip, there's a tiny risk that yes - it'll blow up and they'll get injured or burned.
I've heard of this with just about ALL popular cellphones. If they sold millions and you dig hard enough, you'll find isolated cases of this exact same issue with that phone.