Apple Loses Trillion Dollar Company Status Due to 10% Slide on Stock Market Since Thursday

[TallManNY]

I think you're right...it's just gotten so well timed, I think it definitely is related to stock price manipulation, but it's likely coming from sources outside of Apple.

Maybe there is some manipulation. But if there is, it is being done by someone selling millions of dollars of puts that are "out of the money" until the stock gets driven down by some bogus report that gets traction. It isn't being done by Apple in order to do a buyback of their own stock for a 5% discount.

 

[bluespark]

If there’s not a law requiring it then the choice is simple, Apple discloses what they want and if an investor has an issue with something not being revealed, he or she is welcome to sell their stocks.

That's exactly my point. And Apple's choice is part of the reason we are seeing a correction now.

 

[Ramchi]

Sales units are linked to the performance of Apple services and other accessories. Consumers aren't likely to buy Watch or Apple content if they don't have iPhone.

That's the irony of tieing users in an ecosystem while try to milk them the most on the critical product that unites the ecosystem!!

Once you lose them on that point lose them in all as a natural consequence of ecosystem locking!

 

[chatin]

Tripling down on the X moniker was a big mistake. iPhone 8 plus is their big seller for the holidays. That's what I have and recommend. Trying to hide it has cost them the trillion dollar valuation most likely for good.

 

[gnasher729]

Good! Maybe Apple will learn they can't solely make new products for just the upper upper class. They can't just leave the middle class to pick at 2-5 year old tech. This is what happens, Apple!

Here in the U.K. everyone finds the money somehow to buy the iPhone they want. And the middle class can _afford_ every iPhone.
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Makes me wonder if this has something to do with all the rumors about foldable phone and recent image that Samsung teases about foldable phone. If this is going mainstream this is beyond Apple and that's a question if they have something to counter this kind of technology. If not Apple will be having a hard time justifying their $1000 phone to consumers.

Yes please I want a foldable phone! From a company that is highly ethical like Samsung ! (Korean ex-president is in court for taking several million dollars to give a pardon to a Samsung executive). Rubbish. When Samsung innovates they create rubbish like this that nobody wants.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

Hmm funny thing that stock market. This could change a number of times on any given day or week. So what's the news?

The news was "First Trillion Dollar Company!" now they are just ping-ponging around the trillion dollar mark just like Amazon; you know, that company that sells dog food....

 

[gnasher729]

You underestimate the greed of the rich and powerful.

Enron - just because one jerk wanted his annual income to go from $30 million to $40 million! Didn't even get to enjoy it, eventually.

Not for 5x, 10x or 1000x - just a third (1/3) more!

That was Enron. Years back, when you didn’t expect to go to jail for a bit of stock manipulation. Times have changed. And the 30 million was already based on manipulation. Based on the company’s real performance he would have got nothing. Enron didn’t go under because of sick manipulation but because their business was rubbish - just well hidden.

 

[navaira]

Here in the U.K. everyone finds the money

That's a brave statement. How many people were surveyed? Because here in the NL definitely not everyone finds that money.

 

[OllyW]

Here in the U.K. everyone finds the money somehow to buy the iPhone they want. And the middle class can _afford_ every iPhone.

Not everyone, I know a lot of people who have Android phones because "iPhones are too expensive".

 

[dilbert99]

Nope. Apple is clearly shifting focus and they don’t want their iPhone sales to be the only reason folks have for investing. Thus they stopped hawking the sales numbers as the end all and be all.

This practice is not a great look. Companies have an obligation to reveal information to shareholders. Perhaps unit sales should be mandated.
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Not everyone, I know a lot of people who have Android phones because "iPhones are too expensive".

I know a lot of people who have Android phones because they dislike the restrictions Apple places on them.

 

[MacBH928]

drop in stock after release of new products...hmmm

 

[joueboy]

Yes please I want a foldable phone! From a company that is highly ethical like Samsung ! (Korean ex-president is in court for taking several million dollars to give a pardon to a Samsung executive). Rubbish. When Samsung innovates they create rubbish like this that nobody wants.

Which company is not ethical anymore, as if Apple not dodging tax and yes they're guilty and you know that and Apple knows that and it's the reason why they decided to pay up. I bet you still find ways to say Apple does no good things and can never do wrong. And stop the BS of nobody wants Samsung, I'm an iPhone user since the first generation but if I can afford to buy 2 phones I would definitely get those Galaxy series.

 

[I7guy]

This practice is not a great look. Companies have an obligation to reveal information to shareholders. Perhaps unit sales should be mandated.

Companies have an obligation to release the minimum of information as required by law.

I know a lot of people who have Android phones because they dislike the restrictions Apple places on them.

My wife’s family went from android to iPhone. There always is churn.

 

[dilbert99]

Companies have an obligation to release the minimum of information as required by law.

And what does Apple have to hide by crowing about figures in the past and now not...it hides behind the law?
I think most rational people read in to this logically that Apple expect figures to be worse that in the past. Hence want to hide the unit sales. To be expected I guess, you sell fewer more expensive phones compared to before selling heap of less expensive phones. As a consequence, as the price goes up (62% in 6 years and 125% if you include currency fluctuations in some countries, and if you disagree with those rises, show your calculations for Australia), people hold on to them longer. So instead of the average 2 year replacement cycle, people are going to 3 or 4 years.

 

[KPandian1]

You underestimate the greed of the rich and powerful.
Enron - just because one jerk wanted his annual income to go from $30 million to $40 million! Didn't even get to enjoy it, eventually.Not for 5x, 10x or 1000x - just a third (1/3) more!

That was Enron. Years back, when you didn’t expect to go to jail for a bit of stock manipulation. Times have changed. And the 30 million was already based on manipulation.

My post above was in reply to this post:

TallManNY said:
"Why would anyone take that risk just so their already very rich and successful company could be slightly more successful?
There are people who do securities fraud. Happens all the time. But they do it either (A) to save the company and their job or their investment or (B) so they can make 5x or 10x returns. Neither case applies here."

The Enron guy got caught, there are several more like that out there. Like the elected official caught phoning his order on the golf course!

I was just quoting an example of greed, and that the returns can be not phenomenal to these people, contrary to the highlighted quote in TallManNY's post. My reply is concise - "Do not underestimate the greed of the rich and powerful."

Let us not forget the AIG and banking industry collaboration - now that was for multiples.

I don't imply that Apple is deliberately manipulating stock price - I have no evidence of such tactics.

 

[I7guy]

And what does Apple have to hide by crowing about figures in the past and now not...it hides behind the law?
I think most rational people read in to this logically that Apple expect figures to be worse that in the past. Hence want to hide the unit sales. To be expected I guess, you sell fewer more expensive phones compared to before selling heap of less expensive phones. As a consequence, as the price goes up (62% in 6 years and 125% if you include currency fluctuations in some countries, and if you disagree with those rises, show your calculations for Australia), people hold on to them longer. So instead of the average 2 year replacement cycle, people are going to 3 or 4 years.

It makes sense not to provide unit sales as the business mix is complex and Apple wants investors to focus on revenue. You may have a different thought, but it is what it is.

Except for my extended family (which updates yearly) I didn’t know many people who updated every 2 years. I wind up updating every three years. Maybe you know a different constituency.

 

[x-evil-x]

Wouldn't surprise me if this is 'peak Apple' we are seeing. I don't see it dropping off the face of the earth but there is definitely a steady slow slide down. You cannot price your entire lineup at such levels and expect continued consumer interest and spending.
They make some great products but they're starting to be really overpriced.
Again when your top new smartphone goes from being around £650 (iPhone 6S) to £999 (iPhone X) you either have to be producing the greatest thing since sliced bread or your sales are going to take a hit. Again i understand Apple isn't chasing volumes like Android makers do, but even still, when you have wealthy guys who are tech enthusiasts like myself going eh, I'll pass this year yet again then maybe its time to start question if Time Cook is the guy to be leading Apple.

Not too mention, just ignoring much of your multi-billion dollar Mac lineup as if you want people to stop buying it is just not on.

Confused bloated line up, neglected product lines, bizarre purchases (Carpool Karaoke, Beats). AirPods have been the only real thing I'll call great innovation under Cook's leadership. He's a dull, visionless bean counter (which is fine for a CFO), Apple needs someone like Musk, an ideas guy.

Just imagine Apple's resources and management with Musk's ideas. Now that is a combination guaranteed to change things.

AirPods are the worst things apple has released imo. I have no idea why people want them and they have 0 innovation from standard airpods(same exact shape just cut off the wire). Only good thing they have for them is truly wireless and the chip to pair with the phone. But yea I wouldn't be caught dead rocking those tampons hanging out of your ears and crappy sound quality. Ill stick to my jaybirds.
The 6 design was the biggest Tim could do and the one of the biggest launches. Everything passed this is just meh. The X was good but the design of the notch still never sits with me well even though I owned it and the max.

 

[I7guy]

AirPods are the worst things apple has released imo. I have no idea why people want them and they have 0 innovation from standard airpods(same exact shape just cut off the wire). Only good thing they have for them is truly wireless and the chip to pair with the phone. But yea I wouldn't be caught dead rocking those tampons hanging out of your ears and crappy sound quality...

They seem to be extraordinarily popular, just not with you. Sound quality, imo, is pretty good, not crappy as you posted.

YMMV seems to be the important note.

 

[Applemaniac7]

Is Amazon worth more now in market cap?

In some bizarre way, this would bother you wouldn't it...

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

I own a share of AAPL (still. Just waiting until it's a year old to sell it.)

What are the rules for putting forth a proposal and having shareholders vote on it? I'd like to propose that Apple be forced to disclose all sales data on a quarterly basis. And since they're poking me, I'm going to push for more than we had before. They weren't sharing Apple Watch and Apple TV numbers before - I want those now.

 

[ftaok]

I own a share of AAPL (still. Just waiting until it's a year old to sell it.)

What are the rules for putting forth a proposal and having shareholders vote on it? I'd like to propose that Apple be forced to disclose all sales data on a quarterly basis. And since they're poking me, I'm going to push for more than we had before. They weren't sharing Apple Watch and Apple TV numbers before - I want those now.

This would be a place to start.

https://investor.apple.com/investor-relations/contact-us/default.aspx

Or just show up to the annual meeting and demand that they listen to you.

 

[dilbert99]

It makes sense not to provide unit sales as the business mix is complex and Apple wants investors to focus on revenue. You may have a different thought, but it is what it is.

Yes, I have different thoughts, I think that those figures are valuable. I guess we will have to see how it plays out not reporting unit sales.

Except for my extended family (which updates yearly) I didn’t know many people who updated every 2 years. I wind up updating every three years. Maybe you know a different constituency.

I guess update cycle is anecdotal for most people or what they hear in tech sites.

 

[ftaok]

Yes, I have different thoughts, I think that those figures are valuable. I guess we will have to see how it plays out not reporting unit sales.

OK. I have to ask, why are iPhone unit sales numbers valuable information for you? Is it ..

a. Gives insight into Apple's overall growth potential.
b. Gives insight into Apple's overall share of the mobile phone sector.
c. Both a and b
d. Neither a or b

Here's the thing. I think answer a is legit to a point. I think answer b is a bogus. Everyone and their brother knows that smartphones sales are slowing down or flattening. But how do we know this when only Apple provides unit sales data? Because the analytical research firms figure out a way to estimate how many phones each manufacturer has sold in a particular quarter. Then they add in how many Apple has sold and viola!

Going forward, without actual numbers coming from Apple, these analysts will use their methods to estimate Apple's numbers. And viola! We have the same information that we've always had.

Now you may say that these are just estimates and they could be wildly off ... to which I say yes. But it never mattered to the street that Apple's actual number were compared to an estimated number from everyone else.

Now getting back to answer a. Apple's unit sales have not really grown since the iPhone 6. This coincides with the flat sales for the sector as a whole (via the analytical research firms). So using IDC and Gartner estimates for iPhone sales going forward will still likely be legit. And we'll be able to back-check their number because (at least I think) Apple will still release the revenue number for iPhone. IDC/Gartner can put in a ridiculously low number (just because) since it would lead to a ridiculously high ASP. Apple will still be able to keep CDC/Gartner honest.

I really wouldn't worry about Apple not reporting iPhone unit sales preventing you from doing due diligence in your stock research.

 

[Baymowe335]

Apple has ordered additional plants for iPhone XR and XS to stop. They have ordered to make more older iPhone 8 models than initially expected. Demand isn’t there for the new phones. Major concern. Cash will be there for years and years after all the warning signs start showing up. That’s why they’re called warnings. Apple needs a new visionary and Cook isn’t it.

Nice rehash of the fake Nikkei story, verbatim...been proven as a completely unreliable and speculative Apple source.

Bottom line, they don’t know. They were wrong last year about iPhone X, and so were you if I remember correctly.

And the numbers disagree with everything you said. There are no warnings in the data.

iPhone won’t grow forever because they aren’t going to make a cheap one just to gain market share. Flat unit sales with 20% earnings growth is a great story. iPhone has not shown negative unit sales...they sold more in F2018 than F2017.

 

[dilbert99]

OK. I have to ask, why are iPhone unit sales numbers valuable information for you? Is it ..

a. Gives insight into Apple's overall growth potential.
b. Gives insight into Apple's overall share of the mobile phone sector.
c. Both a and b
d. Neither a or b

Here's the thing. I think answer a is legit to a point. I think answer b is a bogus. Everyone and their brother knows that smartphones sales are slowing down or flattening. But how do we know this when only Apple provides unit sales data? Because the analytical research firms figure out a way to estimate how many phones each manufacturer has sold in a particular quarter. Then they add in how many Apple has sold and viola!

Going forward, without actual numbers coming from Apple, these analysts will use their methods to estimate Apple's numbers. And viola! We have the same information that we've always had.

Now you may say that these are just estimates and they could be wildly off ... to which I say yes. But it never mattered to the street that Apple's actual number were compared to an estimated number from everyone else.

Now getting back to answer a. Apple's unit sales have not really grown since the iPhone 6. This coincides with the flat sales for the sector as a whole (via the analytical research firms). So using IDC and Gartner estimates for iPhone sales going forward will still likely be legit. And we'll be able to back-check their number because (at least I think) Apple will still release the revenue number for iPhone. IDC/Gartner can put in a ridiculously low number (just because) since it would lead to a ridiculously high ASP. Apple will still be able to keep CDC/Gartner honest.

I really wouldn't worry about Apple not reporting iPhone unit sales preventing you from doing due diligence in your stock research.

I would say answer a, I don’t really care how Apple is doing unit sales compared to the competition. I don’t believe Apple is in the market to have the largest market share.
I am not an invested in individual shares so it’s more of a smell to me that Apple is changing reporting. They are only changing because it benefits them.

From an observer point of view it is interesting to me (perhaps as a potential investor) to see what is happening. If unit sales start to go down but they are still making more profit then that would be worrying. Also for thing like services. Apple says these are growing but from a recent podcast they mentioned this revenue was mostly from google.
If they don’t break thing down then they can spin.