Apple Not Accepting Returns or Exchanges in Hong Kong

[Phil A.]

See here for statutory rights in the UK. Regulators around the world have asked Apple to post the actual rights customers have because there have been some very odd practices engaged by Apple regarding returns in the past. Apple's track record is rather unclean.
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

That's talking about defective goods, which are always covered under statutory rights. What Apple are stopping in HK are returns for no reason, not defective returns.

 

[smacrumon]

The reason is simple.

The majority of iPhones sold in Hong Kong in the early days / weeks after launch are immediately sold to traders who would then smuggle them across the border to China. There is a price premium between the retail price in Hong Kong and the retail price in China, not to mention the enormous demand in China that the supply from official retailers within China can't meet, which may drive up the black market price even more.

This has been happening since the iPhone 4 cycle. Yes. iPhone 4 cycle. 6 years ago. Back when China wasn't even on the initial list of countries where the iPhone was available but Hong Kong usually was. Imagine the supply intended for a city of 7 million trying to meet the demand of a country of 1.3 billion.

By providing a generous return policy in the past, Apple was providing a safety net for those seeking a quick return flipping iPhones. In case the demand from China didn't materialize, as was the case for the past 2 cycles, people trying to flip can return the iPhones to Apple for a full refund, risk free. By eliminating this return policy, then there is now a cost to these quick flipping trades, which is actually a good thing.

How does one flip a phone for a profit from one region to another region? Wouldn't you need a receipt to make the return at which time it would state a completely different region? There is no black market. This is just a nonsense. It almost sounds like cigarette companies crying about a cigarette black market.
[doublepost=1474021535][/doublepost]

Why do people from some countries always seem to think the rights they have are automatically extended to those in other countries?

Because we are trying progress the world with the best things, not aiming for the lowest and scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's a little thing called standards. When you know better, you must then do better.
[doublepost=1474021782][/doublepost]

So what you are saying is that customers have the right to be spoiled and take advantage of companies.

I need to run a marathon, let me buy some running shoes, run the marathon, get them all sweaty, then return them knowing the store cannot resell them.


Granted Apple can inspect and sell as refurbished, but the "returning generosity" should not be mandatory to be taken advantage of just because some people have doubts. That's why they have devices you can play with in store, to see if you'll like them.

There you go with pointless exaggeration. No one said returning dirty shoes. However if the product is unopened, faulty, customers should be able to return and expect a full refund. What don't you get about that?

 

[MrNomNoms]

I'm from HK. The concept of refund and exchange is so foreign to us. When I moved to Canada I was shocked people can change their mind and get a refund. The ability to have refunds and exchanges is a privilege, not a universal right.

A lot of stores in HK do not allow refunds or exchanges. This isn't news.

I second that. In New Zealand there is no legal requirement for businesses to actually provide a refund or exchange if the customer changed their mind but most do to win customers over. Personally I support such a policy because it is about time consumers took responsibility for the purchases they make - why should a business be punished because some idiot decides to indulge in an impulse buy only to turn around and demand a refund because they had second thoughts? what ever happened to the idea of personal responsibility by the consumer or aren't consumers meant to have personal responsibly has seen by the litigious nature of the American court system?

 

[smacrumon]

Oh the irony of this post when you just made an absolute statement above about what's right and wrong.

There is an absolute right and wrong here. It's wrong to deny a return if the product is unopened or faulty. It is right to offer exchanges and refunds. Marketing sometimes doesn't match the actual product bought, customers have the inherit right to a recourse and be refunded in such cases.
[doublepost=1474022474][/doublepost]

That's talking about defective goods, which are always covered under statutory rights. What Apple are stopping in HK are returns for no reason, not defective returns.

You should not need to give a reason for returning. If the package is unopened undamaged and with in a certain timeframe, customers should be able to request a full refund with their receipt it proof of purchase. This is just common sense.

 

[KALLT]

Personally I support such a policy because it is about time consumers took responsibility for the purchases they make - why should a business be punished because some idiot decides to indulge in an impulse buy only to turn around and demand a refund because they had second thoughts?

You are looking at this one-sided. The potential for abuse is not a good reason for not doing this, because it can happen from either side. Consumer protection can be abused by consumers just as much lack of such can be abused by sellers and manufacturers.

The right to return goods is meant to prevent sellers from taking advantage of consumers by falsely advertising their goods or misleading them about what the goods exactly do. The reasoning is that sellers are always in a privileged position and the information disparity warrants protection. You cannot always inspect goods completely at the shop, which is why the seller is supposed to bear the risk if the expectations of the buyer were not met. Many businesses even embrace this, because they want to invoke confidence in potential buyers.

Apple revoking this right is apparently legally justified if Hong Kong has no such obligation. But it clearly sends the signal of what kind of company Apple is. It is no surprise to me, Apple intentionally ignored consumer-protection laws in Europe until they were reprimanded several times by consumer-protection agencies. Typical Apple double standards.

 

[Phil A.]

You should not need to give a reason for returning. If the package is unopened undamaged and with in a certain timeframe, customers should be able to request a full refund with their receipt it proof of purchase. This is just common sense.

Common sense isn't the same as the law and the law varies from country to country.

As I said, here in the UK the law is you can't simply return something because you changed your mind if you bought it in store (even though the majority of retailers will allow it as a goodwill gesture).

It seems like the law in HK is similar and Apple are just changing their Ts and Cs to comply with the letter of the law and removing their voluntary returns policy

 

[smacrumon]

Common sense isn't the same as the law and the law varies from country to country.

As I said, here in the UK the law is you can't simply return something because you changed your mind if you bought it in store (even though the majority of retailers will allow it as a goodwill gesture).

It seems like the law in HK is similar and Apple are just changing their Ts and Cs to comply with the letter of the law and removing their voluntary returns policy

I own company shares. I would prefer Apple run its business in a consistent manner across the world and offer all customers generous freedom to make a decision on what they want to buy. Then once the purchase has been made, the ability to change their mind and return their product for an exchange or refund within a certain time (not limiting any other allowances a particular country may have). That would be the Apple difference, that's why more people want to buy from Apple, it is a low risk proposition compared to the competition.

 

[aristobrat]

Unfortunately the people of HK are being used and abused by corporations.

I think you're just making this stuff up as you go along. Your posts sound like you haven't even the slightest bit of experience with the culture of that part of the world.

You're simply here to decry yet another perceived example of a "corporation" abusing "the people".

From the posts of people who live in Hong Kong, it sounds like "no returns" is the policy of the culture. This would include locally owned and operated smaller businesses, not just the ones run by the greedy corporations.

Who are you to insist that your perception of how the entire world should run is the only correct one?

 

[Pez555]

No anger here sister/brother. No need to complain about my postings either. You don't appreciate my viewpoint, that's fine. Get informed yourself though. Apple has every ability to provide good customer service and offer returns including change of mind returns. What customers do with their purchase has nothing to do with Apple after it is sold. On returns, Apple should have systems in place to identify counterfeit products or tampered packaging and units. Apple also has the ability to prevent sales of bulk purchasing of iPhones. Preventing returns is the wrong direction to go. Apple isn't always right.
[doublepost=1474020257][/doublepost]
Just the same, customers have a right to protect themselves from flakey products.
[doublepost=1474020664][/doublepost]
See here for statutory rights in the UK. Regulators around the world have asked Apple to post the actual rights customers have because there have been some very odd practices engaged by Apple regarding returns in the past. Apple's track record is rather unclean.
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
[doublepost=1474021061][/doublepost]
Thanks for your personal perspective. Unfortunately the people of HK are being used and abused by corporations. Apple has just joined that list with this new policy. The right to change your mind, return and refund should be standard. It is fair and it is right. And with the right systems and procedures in place, it is has little to no impact on the business involved.

Not buying in bulk wouldn't change a thing though. A guy can get x number of people to buy one each and its the same situation.

 

[aristobrat]

Not buying in bulk wouldn't change a thing though. A guy can get x number of people to buy one each and its the same situation.

That's exactly how the scalping has worked. Nobody walks in and makes a bulk purchase -- Apple already has ways to prevent that. Instead, the scalper finds finds 20-30 people, who each walk in and buy two iPhones a day. Repeat for days. Try to sell scalped phones for high profit, during the period where there isn't enough stock for regular customers. At the end of the return window, if the scalped phones didn't sell for the artificially high price, scalper returns them for a full refund.

This process has been going on for so long that it's amazing @smacrumon is unaware of it.

 

[HEK]

There is an absolute right and wrong here. It's wrong to deny a return if the product is unopened or faulty. It is right to offer exchanges and refunds. Marketing sometimes doesn't match the actual product bought, customers have the inherit right to a recourse and be refunded in such cases.
[doublepost=1474022474][/doublepost]
You should not need to give a reason for returning. If the package is unopened undamaged and with in a certain timeframe, customers should be able to request a full refund with their receipt it proof of purchase. This is just common sense.

And how pray tell is the Apple Store able to determine if the iPhone box was unopened? You have any concept of how easy it is to re-shrinkwrap a box. And of course you would be ok if Apple Store sold you an iPhone with no shrink wrap wouldn't you.

With the amount of fake iPhones in the southeast Asian area, these returns of re shrink wrapped boxes with fake iPhones is a big issue. It's about time Apple did something about this problem. I would also like to see the two phone limit applied for the first three months of new phone sales. It is extremely unfair to everyone wanting a phone to sell dozens or more to a single individual that is reselling them.

Once a phone is returned, shrink wrapped or not, it can not be resold as new. This is obviously a reaction to the vast number of phones sold to scalpers that returned some within two weeks that they could not sell.

 

[smacrumon]

I think you're just making this stuff up as you go along. Your posts sound like you haven't even the slightest bit of experience with the culture of that part of the world.

You're simply here to decry yet another perceived example of a "corporation" abusing "the people".

From the posts of people who live in Hong Kong, it sounds like "no returns" is the policy of the culture. This would include locally owned and operated smaller businesses, not just the ones run by the greedy corporations.

Who are you to insist that your perception of how the entire world should run is the only correct one?

"no returns" is the policy of the culture. -- Ha, what a corporate comedic joke.
I aim higher than the basement floor. So do many in HK.
[doublepost=1474026007][/doublepost]

Not buying in bulk wouldn't change a thing though. A guy can get x number of people to buy one each and its the same situation.

Oh, the whole, they're coming in masses in to Apple Stores. Doubtful and if not doubtful, that's fine. As long at they aren't opened, not damaged, why not allow them to be retuned within a certain timeframe.
[doublepost=1474026120][/doublepost]

That's exactly how the scalping has worked. Nobody walks in and makes a bulk purchase -- Apple already has ways to prevent that. Instead, the scalper finds finds 20-30 people, who each walk in and buy two iPhones a day. Repeat for days. Try to sell scalped phones for high profit, during the period where there isn't enough stock for regular customers. At the end of the return window, if the scalped phones didn't sell for the artificially high price, scalper returns them for a full refund.

This process has been going on for so long that it's amazing @smacrumon is unaware of it.

SO WHAT. If they aren't opened or damaged, why not accept the returns. It's not Apple's business what anyone does with an iPhone once it has been purchased.
[doublepost=1474026287][/doublepost]

And how pray tell is the Apple Store able to determine if the iPhone box was unopened? You have any concept of how easy it is to re-shrinkwrap a box. And of course you would be ok if Apple Store sold you an iPhone with no shrink wrap wouldn't you.

With the amount of fake iPhones in the southeast Asian area, these returns of re shrink wrapped boxes with fake iPhones is a big issue. It's about time Apple did something about this problem. I would also like to see the two phone limit applied for the first three months of new phone sales. It is extremely unfair to everyone wanting a phone to sell dozens or more to a single individual that is reselling them.

Once a phone is returned, shrink wrapped or not, it can not be resold as new. This is obviously a reaction to the vast number of phones sold to scalpers that returned some within two weeks that they could not sell.

You can apply this to all items. Criminals swap out Xboxes with bricks and all kinds of stuff. Clearly cheap shrink wrap ain't secure enough. There are tamper proof packages really available that solve this issue.

 

[HEK]

That's exactly how the scalping has worked. Nobody walks in and makes a bulk purchase -- Apple already has ways to prevent that. Instead, the scalper finds finds 20-30 people, who each walk in and buy two iPhones a day. Repeat for days. Try to sell scalped phones for high profit, during the period where there isn't enough stock for regular customers. At the end of the return window, if the scalped phones didn't sell for the artificially high price, scalper returns them for a full refund.

This process has been going on for so long that it's amazing @smacrumon is unaware of it.

This is a computer company, how hard would it be to require an ID and not sell again for two weeks to same person. Keep a data base. Or sales must be tide to cell service for first month. No added sales to same number for a month.

Apple business built on loyal customers, not scalpers. Put the loyal customers first, Apple will still sell all they can make for first month or two.

 

[aristobrat]

SO WHAT. If they aren't opened or damaged, why not accept the returns. It's not Apple's business what anyone does with an iPhone once it has been purchased.

You truly have no understanding of HK-specific launch issues that specifically deal with this, do you?

But yet you have such a strong opinion on the matter.

Amazing.

 

[HEK]

"no returns" is the policy of the culture. -- Ha, what a corporate comedic joke.
I aim higher than the basement floor. So do many in HK.
[doublepost=1474026007][/doublepost]
Oh, the whole, they're coming in masses in to Apple Stores. Doubtful and if not doubtful, that's fine. As long at they aren't opened, not damaged, why not allow them to be retuned within a certain timeframe.
[doublepost=1474026120][/doublepost]
SO WHAT. If they aren't opened or damaged, why not accept the returns. It's not Apple's business what anyone does with an iPhone once it has been purchased.
[doublepost=1474026287][/doublepost]
You can apply this to all items. Criminals swap out Xboxes with bricks and all kinds of stuff. Clearly cheap shrink wrap ain't secure enough. There are tamper proof packages really available that solve this issue.

You keep saying if not opened. How is Apple to know, unless they open box to check contents. And then it is opened. All your future Apple products should be sold to you in opened box. Wonder if you would complain about that.

 

[peterh988]

How does one flip a phone for a profit from one region to another region? Wouldn't you need a receipt to make the return at which time it would state a completely different region? There is no black market. This is just a nonsense. It almost sounds like cigarette companies crying about a cigarette black market.

This guy was trying to exploit the black market!

And how pray tell is the Apple Store able to determine if the iPhone box was unopened? You have any concept of how easy it is to re-shrinkwrap a box. And of course you would be ok if Apple Store sold you an iPhone with no shrink wrap wouldn't you.

I remember one of the iPad launches, it may have even be reported on this site, where scores of mainly chinese people were returning dozens of iPads each because the market didn't pan out as expected. The Apple Store people were having to open and verify each returned unit before giving a refund. presumably those then had to go in the refurb pile, as they can't be resold as new, costing Apple money, and making it a risk free business for the scalpers. I'm guessing that's why they stopped it.

 

[aristobrat]

This is a computer company, how hard would it be to require an ID and not sell again for two weeks to same person. Keep a data base. Or sales must be tide to cell service for first month. No added sales to same number for a month.

Apple business built on loyal customers, not scalpers. Put the loyal customers first, Apple will still sell all they can make for first month or two.

I don't know how it works in HK, but in the US, I'm pretty sure you can't make having an ID a requirement for a sale, if you're selling to the public.

So what Apple did was require that people paid with credit/debit cards, and would decline cards that had already had two iPhones purchased on them. Oh, and the cards had to have your name imprinted on them, to reduce the number of people running out to get prepaid cards.

Loyal customers hated this, Apple caught a lot of crap, and the whole program was dropped.

 

[smacrumon]

This guy was trying to exploit the black market!

I remember one of the iPad launches, it may have even be reported on this site, where scores of mainly chinese people were returning dozens of iPads each because the market didn't pan out as expected. The Apple Store people were having to open and verify each returned unit before giving a refund. presumably those then had to go in the refurb pile, as they can't be resold as new, costing Apple money, and making it a risk free business for the scalpers. I'm guessing that's why they stopped it.

This is one person. Clearly these phone could not be retuned to Apple especially not in a different region, they don't even have packaging etc.
[doublepost=1474026846][/doublepost]

You truly have no understanding of HK-specific launch issues that specifically deal with this, do you?

But yet you have such a strong opinion on the matter.

Amazing.

Yep, support Apple all the way, don't even take a step back and assess this situation objectively.

 

[aristobrat]

How does one flip a phone for a profit from one region to another region? Wouldn't you need a receipt to make the return at which time it would state a completely different region? There is no black market.

You think the profit is made from buying a product in one region and returning in another region?

Tell me you're joking, please.

People buy in one region (HK), smuggle the product into another region where the product isn't readily available (mainland China), and sell the product at a much higher price.

That's where the profile comes from.

 

[Pez555]

This is a computer company, how hard would it be to require an ID and not sell again for two weeks to same person. Keep a data base. Or sales must be tide to cell service for first month. No added sales to same number for a month.

Apple business built on loyal customers, not scalpers. Put the loyal customers first, Apple will still sell all they can make for first month or two.

Again, this wouldnt change a thing. There are probably thousands of people that do this.

There has obviously been an abuse of the system and Apple has every right to do what they are doing.

 

[smacrumon]

You think the profit is made from buying a product in one region and returning in another region?

Tell me you're joking, please.

People buy in one region (HK), smuggle the product into another region where the product isn't readily available (mainland China), and sell the product at a much higher price.

That's where the profile comes from.

So what. If people want to do that, go right ahead. Let the authorities catch up with them. This shouldn't mean Apple conveniently prevents returns from all other customers.

 

[HEK]

This guy was trying to exploit the black market!

I remember one of the iPad launches, it may have even be reported on this site, where scores of mainly chinese people were returning dozens of iPads each because the market didn't pan out as expected. The Apple Store people were having to open and verify each returned unit before giving a refund. presumably those then had to go in the refurb pile, as they can't be resold as new, costing Apple money, and making it a risk free business for the scalpers. I'm guessing that's why they stopped it.

BINGO You just hit the nail on the head.

On a side note, would you risk smuggling Note 7 like this? I know it'S been said before.
[doublepost=1474027506][/doublepost]

This is one person. Clearly these phone could not be retuned to Apple especially not in a different region, they don't even have packaging etc.
[doublepost=1474026846][/doublepost]
Yep, support Apple all the way, don't even take a step back and assess this situation objectively.

The packaging was used by scalper's friend to rebox fake phones, shrink wrap and try to return to original Apple Store with receipt. You think, maybe.

 

[smacrumon]

BINGO You just hit the nail on the head.

On a side note, would you risk smuggling Note 7 like this? I know it'S been said before.

All this is just sensational cherry picking to suit the claims made by the commenter.
[doublepost=1474027704][/doublepost]

BINGO You just hit the nail on the head.

On a side note, would you risk smuggling Note 7 like this? I know it'S been said before.
[doublepost=1474027506][/doublepost]
The packaging was used by scalper's friend to rebox fake phones, shrink wrap and try to return to original Apple Store with receipt. You think, maybe.

Well Apple should open all sealed products and inspect the item before handing back cash.
OR
If Apple used tamper proof wrapping, there would be no issue determining the authenticity of the device.
This is retail 101 people!

 

[HEK]

All this is just sensational cherry picking to suit the claims made by the commenter.
[doublepost=1474027704][/doublepost]
Well Apple should open all sealed products and inspect the item before handing back cash.
OR
If Apple used tamper proof wrapping, there would be no issue determining the authenticity of the device.
This is retail 101 people!

There is no such thing as tamper proof. If man created it, another man can fake it.

And you should appreciate cherry picking, as you like to take it to new art form.

Every once in awhile you could comment positively about Apple and their products. It wouldn't kill you to add a bit of sweetnes to that vinaigrette. Or at very least acknowledge that other people's opinion might have some validity too.

 

[smacrumon]

There is no such thing as tamper proof. If man created it, another man can fake it.

And you should appreciate cherry picking, as you like to take it to new art form.

Every once in awhile you could comment positively about Apple and their products. It wouldn't kill you to add a bit of sweetnes to that vinaigrette. Or at very least acknowledge that other people's opinion might have some validity too.

I do comment on the good things Apple does, but of late, decisions like this are completely baffling.