Apple Privacy Chief: North Dakota Bill 'Threatens to Destroy the iPhone as You Know It'

[Naraxus]

You mean like how Epic first tried to get users to sideload Fortnite by withholding it from the play store?

Yeah, I am sure that has zero impact on the users who wanted to download it.

Meanwhile, iOS users were happily downloading and playing the game from day one because Epic couldn’t even try such a stunt to begin with.

It has happened before, and it will happen again. These companies are not my friends, and I would sooner trust Apple to keep them honest than I would Epic.

Please answer this VERY simple question: Why should your fear of what may happen if there are alternative app stores interfere with me wanting to put what I desire onto my phone? You won't be going to them anyhow so how would a third-party app store affect you in any way?

 

[gavroche]

The problem you’ll have with this is every single developer will end up having their own app store because they don’t want to lose any of their profit to a 3rd party store. This creates more hassle for consumers as you would then have to have an account for each store, each containing banking information, personal info.

All the fuss and legal battles that are going on are simply because the big developers are throwing their toys out the pram, especially in epic games case.

apple is focussed on consumers privacy and because many companies profit off the things apple is closing off, they aren’t happy. If you take this into a different perspective, you wouldn’t be able to own a property for free without paying for local taxes, services and the essentials. Apple offers a secure reputable storefront recognised by billions yet the developers moan when apple wants to take a percentage of their profits in return for access to that storefront.

I personally believe that a lot of these developers will realize that they’re better off staying in Apple‘s App Store anyway. They might get lower fees paid by switching to one of these small app stores… But if so few people use them what’s the point. Would you rather get a 70% (or 85%) piece of a huge pie, or a 90% or 100% piece of a tiny tiny pie.
And on top of that revenue difference… You got all of the tools that Apple makes available to help you create your software. I can guarantee you that if these developers all start switching and putting their apps onto competing app stores that Apple gets no revenue from… Apple will stop making those tools available for free. Good luck trying to create all your own APIs for your software.

 

[JoeShades]

Fine, David. When an app steals your private information or brings down your phone, make sure to call the dude with the propeller beanie down the street because Apple will rightly tell you you’re SOL.

Then stick with the app store you know and trust, maybe another will come along that you can also trust to get apps from

 

[bviktor]

I don't see this ever passing. The moment someone points out to them that if users are allowed to use any app store they please, legislative app bans, and any and all counter-pirate measues will be rendered completely useless, these "clever" fellas will backtrack in a moment.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Actually, it is your problem too: unless you happen to never share information, or files, or photos, or anything with anyone. If they become compromised, so do you.

You're right, that's why I refuse to be friends with anyone who has an Android phone. What if they leak my information?

I'm being snarky, sorry. You're not wrong, but my point is that you just can't do anything about this, at least without taking a ridiculous amount of control over other people's lives. People are allowed to buy Android phones and Windows PCs and to pay hundreds of dollars for cameras from Facebook, which then they plot right in their living room.

 

[warp9]

I never said I owned the os though did I?

Yes you did:

I, not Apple, should be able to decide what I put on my phone.

Only way to do that is to remove iOS and you said no such thing.

I, not Apple, should be able to choose what payment method I want to use.

Again, you can't do that unless you remove iOS. So is that what you would do if given the choice?

 

[Rob_2811]

I dont like this at all because I love the current set up. Playstation does this and no one cares.

Of all the problematic close to monopolies in tech Apple App Store in the least. Facebook, google, Twitter, even Amazon are bigger problems.

Nah

Facebook and Google are problematic but for different reasons. Twitter isn't on the same planet as the damage Apples rent seeking does to innovation.

 

[mannyvel]

They don't really have the authority to do this, so it's safe to ignore. If this gets introduced in the US Senate, though, it might be a problem.

 

[gavroche]

Please answer this VERY simple question: Why should your fear of what may happen if there are alternative app stores interfere with me wanting to put what I desire onto my phone? You won't be going to them anyhow so how would a third-party app store affect you in any way?

Do you communicate with people? Do those people have your name? Your email? Your address? Photos of yours? Files of yours?
Give it a little thought, and try to realize that even if you never go to those alternate app stores, people you communicate with may. What do those people know about you that you would not want being compromised? (If you have ever received an email from a friend that came from their email address to yours... and had some link in it to click... but you knew it wasn’t from them because the message made no sense... this is a great example. Someone obtained access to that friends contact list... and was spamming links that likely led to malware... etc)

 

[falkon-engine]

It's time that the law changed. Only a matter of time. I support opening up the app store to competition... competing stores. Most users will likely only ever use the default Apple app store. But if a user soo chooses, he or she can go to another app store as well. Just like he or she can on a Macintosh.

 

[Altivec88]

Be careful what you wish for. I think a lot of people aren't thinking this through. A lot people say just give us the choice, you don't have to use the other stores if you don't want to.

If iOS gets opened up to multiple stores, the supply of apps will get fragmented Apps will start disappearing from Apple's store and start showing up in either Tom, Dick or Harry's store. So everyone will be forced to go to the other stores because the app they want is exclusive to that store.

So now instead of just searching for the App you want, you need to open up 50 (500, 1000) stores to do a search. Then set up accounts and give your credit card to who knows who.

Need to update your app. You can't expect Apple to manage to update apps that they don't sell, so instead of hitting update all apps, you now have to go visit all the stores you bought from or even worse, you have to download their intrusive spyware updater app.

Besides all the security implications, does the general consumer really want things to go that way. Sounds crazy to me. For those that do and feel strongly about it, android has this option available to you now. If Apple's method gets destroyed, I have nowhere to go for the level convenience and security I desire.

 

[BKDad]

It's the same problem Microsoft had with 32-bit apps, and even 16-bit before that. Alienating a massive pre existing software base would be very bad for business. It seems Apple has no choice but to slowly cut off parts of the OS to outside apps until it's completely closed off. I predict another 5 years until it's anywhere close to that.

I agree with you, but it may be happening faster than you'd like to think. Have you tried using a 32 bit app on a recent version of macOS?

Side story that may be relevant - We own a late 2015 27" iMac. We bought the fastest processor and graphics option we could get at the time. We also bought the SSD upgrade, which was certainly more expensive than the usual hard drive. But, it was our choice and it's worked fine. However... Over the past few months, routine EFIChecks performed by the operating system left notifications that our "Firmware is out of date! Contact Apple!" We did. Long story short, everybody up the ladder in the service organization said that we were running the latest firmware. Nobody had ever heard of such a problem. Then why the notification? Must be something we did here, perhaps our memory was bad. Fast forward a few months. Somebody figured out the problem. It seems that one firmware revision balked when there was an SSD in place. No idea why. So, now newer firmware versions won't install. But, if you take out the SSD and install a drive onto the internal SATA bus, you can get firmware revisions, even once you reinstall the previous SSD and remove the SATA drive. Apple still tells people this isn't the case. The practical problem is that if you install Big Sur in this model and for some reason you need to Recover the operating system, it won't take you back to Big Sur recovery. That is, unless the firmware is up to date. It is apparently entirely a software/firmware upgrade installer problem. Yet, everybody in Apple denies this. The point of describing this sad tale is that Apple is moving in a different direction such as you describe and are quite willing to be deceptive about it all. (You can read more on this both in forums here and elsewhere.)

 

[podycust]

I just installed fortnite on an m1 mac last night and I saw first hand how bully tactics from the manufacturer can prefent developers from using their platform. Apples user base is too large to not tick off some law makers with their tactics or antics. If Apple can't settle matters fairly with its developers and resorts to locking them out if they get too big to make demands then its inevitable that someone outside the company will try to pass a law or file a case against this behavior. Apple brings this on themselves and I hope they can come up with a solution that benefits everyone more fairly. Apple Silicon Macs are becoming as locked down as the iOS devices are. All they need to do is remove rosetta and the Mac OS will become an extrememly walled garden. And they already pulled rosetta 1 from the Mac OS a long time ago so you know they could do it again. I say keep passing laws, Apple has enough lawyers to work out settlements that actually get the company to behave and avoid getting people upset to the point they think they need laws to get Apple to do something fair.

There’s nothing stopping epic putting fortnite on their own store on Mac they just acting like a little kid because they can’t get their own way! Even compiling it as an universal app! epic and fortnite is a poor example!

also Rosetta is never ment to be around forever! Its just to help with the transition to a new architecture till developers have a chance to update their apps. What PowerPC apps would you need Rosetta 1 to still exist for?

 

[Shadows_lord]

are they doing this with TV manufacturers also? You can’t install anything outside of their own store options eithe

No TV manufacturer has a monopoly. And there no demand for this. You comparison is not good my friend.

 

[Osamede]

Why doesn't anybody ask users what they want? I specifically chose the iPhone because it is locked down. If I want the ability to side-load, use secondary app stores, and alternative payment methods, I'll go to Android.

This is a logical comment but the unfortunate truth is that legislators across the US are generally ingorant or paid by companies to do their bidding. Sometimes both.

Until the average person starts punishing these folks at election time, nothing’s going to change.

 

[gavroche]

You're right, that's why I refuse to be friends with anyone who has an Android phone. What if they leak my information?

I'm being snarky, sorry. You're not wrong, but my point is that you just can't do anything about this, at least without taking a ridiculous amount of control over other people's lives. People are allowed to buy Android phones and Windows PCs and to pay hundreds of dollars for cameras from Facebook, which then they plot right in their living room.

Ya... you are right that ultimately you can’t completely prevent everything. But what bothers me about this walled garden versus non-walled garden debate is that you currently have both options available. If you liked wall garden, you got apple. If you don’t like wall garden you can go android. That’s a choice that we can all make today. So I just do not understand why people that prefer the android approach don’t just go use android. Why do they feel they have to take away our choice?
Also… I have to question the motivations of a handful of people here when they want to stick so hard to the thought that they couldn’t possibly be affected by other peoples bad choices on what they choose to install.

 

[Seoras]

Hard disagree. Every time I ponder buying a piece of Mac software I check to see if it's available on the independent developer's site as a direct purchase. That way 100% of my money goes to them, versus Apple taking a huge cut. I was using a Mac for a long long time before the App Store even existed and I am very grateful it's still open enough of a platform that Apple doesn't have a stranglehold over every single aspect of it. In fact, some things I use regularly aren't even allowed on the App Store, like Audio Hijack from Rogue Amoeba. They're a very reputable developer with longstanding ties to the Mac but their software has capabilities that exceed what App Store apps are allowed to do.

The iPhone was locked down from the very beginning, and that's why we're seeing moves lately for Apple to open up the platform a bit: choosing default apps, for one. I hope the trend continues.

Yeah, I'd like to do the same. Try explaining to a non-techie (the majority) how to distinguish. You can't. I tried yesterday.
Like it or not the "others" need a guardian angel to get their software from. One entity they can trust.
Even I find myself preferring the App Store to going direct to the developer and I'm a developer too.

That's another thing. I don't want to have to submit my app, each time I update, to several app stores.
Two's enough work as it is. I dropped Amazon's App store, too much extra work.
I only published there because Amazon "paid" me to do so a few years prior.

So - in summary. The users don't want this. I'd say the majority of app publishers don't want it either.
The only people who want to crack iPhone are the Government and their spooks and Epic Games (only because they want their own app store to grab 30%).

 

[Shadows_lord]

Right!..don’t buy an iPhone if u don’t like the product....simple stuff here people. You can buy an Android as easy as an iphone

Although I own basically every other Apple product, I have chosen Android for the same reason. I will not ever choose iPhone again until this stupid limitation is in place (all of my older iPhones were jailbroken, which is a suboptimal solution). Also, I don't want to be associated with people who don't know computers enough to distinguish a legit app from a malware.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

So I just do not understand why people that prefer the android approach don’t just go use android.

I said this earlier in the thread—because there's a heck of a lot of other reasons to prefer iOS. And I don't see how making Apple allow third party apps would be taking away choice, because it's still up to users whether they want to sideload apps. Heck, depending on how Apple sets things up, it could be that almost no one would sideload apps—how many Mac users do you think disable SIP, or even turn of Gatekeeper?

But the ability would be there for advanced users who want it—and more importantly, as a last resort for extraordinary circumstances, like when China forced Apple to remove a protester safety app from the Hong Kong App Store!

 

[TraceyS/FL]

If people can install whatever they want on their iPhone, Apple is under no requirement to support them in any way. You want your own App Store, you can write your own OS. If you install some horrific crap that steals all your money, you can't blame Apple. There is exactly zero way our apps will ever run on someone's insecure Apple environment. Our lawyers would never allow it. Write your own DakotaOS and do whatever you want.

I don’t know what apps you develop - but I’d like to support you in this choice.

 

[ignatius345]

Apple is basically saying "the only way we can assure the security of the iOS platform is by prohibiting software that doesn't come from a platform that we control completely, which totally by coincidence we pull as much as 30% off the top of."

Which is weird because, again, non-App Store software absolutely can run safely on the Mac. So why can't it on iOS?

A lot of people in here parroting the official Apple line, which I guess is to be expected. But as a longtime Mac user, I'm not buying it.

 

[jasonlasky]

1. Reduce App Store commission to 10% across the board, every app and in app purchase - fair & competitive.
2. Allow any customer to jailbrake with agreement they void their hardware and software warranty, including compatibility with iOS updates, access to Apple services & App Store.

Since jailbrake is already a physical possibility, the user needs to know the consequences in regards to their warranty. Therefore Apple can make it clear a jailbrake allows the freedom North Dakota claims should be made available but it also breaks compatibility & warranty.

 

[Rob_2811]

Ya... you are right that ultimately you can’t completely prevent everything. But what bothers me about this walled garden versus non-walled garden debate is that you currently have both options available. If you liked wall garden, you got apple. If you don’t like wall garden you can go android. That’s a choice that we can all make today. So I just do not understand why people that prefer the android approach don’t just go use android. Why do they feel they have to take away our choice?
Also… I have to question the motivations of a handful of people here when they want to stick so hard to the thought that they couldn’t possibly be affected by other peoples bad choices on what they choose to install.

Because, for the most part, it isn't a question of individual choice but on the terms that Apple dictate to companies that have apps on the App Store

 

[MowgliWolf]

**** that, I want apps to be vetted before being put on the App Store, only that one place to have my payment details thank you very much

 

[Nuvi]

I install non- App Store software all the time. I've never experienced any of the things you're making up. Nice try though!

So you are running Windows without any security software and you install third party software from unknown sources?

You can forget Mac with its tiny market share. Now it’s the big boy business time...