Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
If you are, a source would be nice to back up that statement.:p

Same here. I've never heard of even a single case where someone said "I didn't want to hire him because he's white", and the court replied with a "Yeah? Well...alright. That's cool, I guess".

IANAL, but I believe discrimination is discrimination, regardless of race, sex, color, or creed in the eyes of the law. There are situations that are harder to prove than others, and some races have extra protection due to past abuses, but that still doesn't mean you can fire a guy just because he's white.
 
It annoys me to see how Apple have doctored their statistics to make the white percentage look as low as possible. If you look at this pie chart (courtesy of Ars technica) you'll see that the 55% whites are counted separately from those who didn't declare their race.

Image

So we are to assume that NONE of the 9% undeclared are white? No, this pie chart shouldn't include the yellow segment at all. The fraction of workers who are white (based on the data we actually have) is 55/91, which is just over 60%.

Would be better to assume "undeclared" should be put into the "other" section. Making it 10% other.
 
Sheesh! Didn't you read the article? Tim said he's "not satisfied" with the diversity numbers. What do you think he meant by that? That they need to hire more white males?

Diversity should be achieved by picking the best person for the job, any other metric taints people you employ as being quota hires:



So do Ahrendts and Wagner appreciate being quota hires brought in to boost Apple's female leadership diversity?
Or ya know, not only does it help diversity but maybe they were the right people for the job??

Lack of logic here is disturbing, very disturbing indeed.
 
Consider Apple's constant discrimination again modern Mac minis, 17" laptops and powerful, configurable towers for enthusiasts. How 'bout them Apples, Apple?
 
Why is that none of these tech companies has addressed the low diversity in applicants for Computer Science degrees? The reason why we don't see more women, blacks, or hispanics in these tech companies is because they're uninterested in CS. Fix that problem first before hiring for diversity sake.
 
If you observe the most basic definition of discrimination then I guess you are technically right. All in all, this is an argument of semantics and I don't think it's what not actually what we disagree on. (I could be wrong though)

I observe the correct definition, which to me in this case has no inherent positive or negative connotations. I guess that's the key issue: you'd rather avoid using the correct term since to many it automatically implies a negative connotation. I'd rather use the correct term and explain that it's not inherently negative and in specific cases might be a good thing.

This is the main part of our disagreement. The fact that you don't believe there is a pre-existing bias of discrimination when history tells you there was and there still is. And this is where our definition of discrimination differs, because you don't think there's an issue to correct. And I do.

I never stated that I don't believe a bias exist. What I believe is that there is a bias, but there are also a lot of other factors which lead to a ratio imbalance, so it's difficult to discern whether the imbalance comes from unfair discrimination or other, potentially legit factors and how much is to be accounted to the unfair discrimination.

As example, if you employ positive discrimination to try to correct the bias and reach 55% of white workers, is that good enough? Or are you still under the mark? Or maybe you overcompensated and are over the mark? You have no way to know if you cannot define the supposedly "unbiased" ratio, which is not an easy thing to do.

Also, even if there is an issue to correct, in my opinion this kind of positive discrimination is only a workaround, not a proper solution. To make a car analogy, it's like having a car which pulls to the right. The "positive discrimination" solution is to always steer slightly to the left if you want to go straight: you will go straight, but you have to actively correct your direction, and you'll always have to if you don't fix the underlying problem.

Said that, not all workarounds are a bad thing as long as they are recognized as such and you don't forget to fix the underlying problem in the long term... which is sadly what tends to happen when workarounds are involved.

The goal will be reached when race and discrimination don't matter. And I'm not talking about Apple, I'm talking largely of our society. None of which we will see in our lifetime or the next two.

That's exactly the "proper solution" I'm talking about, but I doubt it will ultimately lead to perfectly matching ratios: as I said I believe there are other factors beside discrimination which might lead to an imbalance, and that imbalance is not necessarily unfair.
 
Or ya know, not only does it help diversity but maybe they were the right people for the job??

Let me try to help you understand again:

Cook has taken steps towards improving Apple's diversity by boosting Apple's female leadership

"Cook has taken steps" means that having more females in leadership positions was a goal, or, you know, a quota.

When there are goals to fill, it means preferential treatment for those who fulfill the goal (in this case, being female). Which leads to the reasonable conclusion that if there were more competent men applying for the jobs, they would have been passed over because of Tim's quotas. Hence, the women who were hired to fill those slots are tainted by the perception they were "quota hires".

Lack of logic here is disturbing, very disturbing indeed.

Your self honesty is refreshing, but I don't judge you.
 
Let me try to help you understand again:



"Cook has taken steps" means that having more females in leadership positions was a goal, or, you know, a quota.

When there are goals to fill, it means preferential treatment for those who fulfill the goal (in this case, being female). Which leads to the reasonable conclusion that if there were more competent men applying for the jobs, they would have been passed over because of Tim's quotas. Hence, the women who were hired to fill those slots are tainted by the perception they were "quota hires".



Your self honesty is refreshing, but I don't judge you.
You don't get it, even if they were some sort of a quota, they were still right for the job, how is that difficult to comprehend?
 
You are factually wrong. Legally it is permissible to discriminate against white people. This is both statutory and backed up by tens of thousands of pages of case law.

Would you care to elaborate or are you just pulling things off the internet. I'm not talking about some state college admissions programs. The person that I responded to claimed to place inaccurate information on an optional form that can be filled out when applying for a job, suggesting that otherwise he wouldn't be considered for a position. Can you think of a specific reference for that fairly bold assertion?
 
You don't get it, even if they were some sort of a quota, they were still right for the job, how is that difficult to comprehend?

If there are more qualified people who don't meet Tim's quota, so less qualified people get hired in their place, how is that fair?

When you start hiring by anything other than competence, competence comes into question.
 
If there are more qualified people who don't meet Tim's quota, so less qualified people get hired in their place, how is that fair?

When you start hiring by anything other than competence, competence comes into question.

It's fair cause it only exists in another dimension.
 
If there are more qualified people who don't meet Tim's quota, so less qualified people get hired in their place, how is that fair?

When you start hiring by anything other than competence, competence comes into question.

Ah and I already addressed that one much earlier in the thread, suggesting that if they want greater diversity, they should manage that from a marketing standpoint. Large companies have developed strategies for recruitment of upcoming and recent graduates. If they feel specific groups are underrepresented relative to the ratio of graduating talent, they should examine why they don't have enough qualified applicants from those groups. That has nothing to do with quotas.
 
Everything's pretty well beaten to death by now, but I'm surprised how diverse they look. I'd agree that it's largely driven by retail employees.

It's just a matter of the USA's demographics and the social climate. My father-in-law was an engineer and that's what my wife wanted to do. Nope, two of his sons followed in his footsteps but he pushed her in another direction when she was young.

I attended an engineering university and it was 5:1 (guys/girls) at that time. I just looked it up and it's still hovering in that same range. I'd like to see the graduating numbers, because it always seemed that a large portion of the females were freshmen that didn't return.
 
No, that's what I'm saying. We try to take this "equality" thing so far to the point we're hurting ourselves making sure everything is equal.

My point was tongue-in-cheek.

For example, if a public university released diversity statistics that showed 15% Hispanic, 13% Black, 5% Asian and 67% White, people would have a cow. Yet that's the demographic make up of this country.

Why these reports are even necessary is idiotic to begin with.

A little more complicated than that. I think what the problem is when, for example, the surrounding communities are 30% black, 40% Hispanic, 10%asian, 20% white and the College is 60% white, 30% Asian, 7% Hispanic, and 3% black.

With that said, I don't believe in things like Affirmative action. When measures like that are in place, everyone college student(especially white and Asian) thinks you don't deserve to be in there because as a black person you "must" have gotten in by affirmative action.

Ideally, I wish ethnicity wasn't a factor at all.
 
Last edited:
Would be better to assume "undeclared" should be put into the "other" section. Making it 10% other.

No! That would mean that the 9% undeclared consists of people who aren't white and who don't fall into any of the other categories, which I simply don't believe to be true.

The people who refuse to answer the race question on surveys are NOT JUST ethnicities that don't fit into any of the other categories. They are likely to be a cross-section of all the races, including white.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/apple-lack-diversity-workplace/story?id=24950798

The media in this country can go to hell....

----------

A little more complicated than that. I think what the problem is when, for example, the surrounding communities are 30% black, 40% Hispanic, 10%asian, 20% white and the College is 70% white, 20% Asian, 7% Hispanic, and 3% black.

Why? People come from all over the US - heck the world - to go to different colleges.

Standardizing so "every ethnicity is equal" is idiotic and not indicative of the real picture.

That are quite a few more issues when discussing education though.....let's not derail this thread with them.
 
No! That would mean that the 9% undeclared consists of people who aren't white and who don't fall into any of the other categories, which I simply don't believe to be true.

The people who refuse to answer the race question on surveys are NOT JUST ethnicities that don't fit into any of the other categories. They are likely to be a cross-section of all the races, including white.

So you claim "how do we know "undeclared" are not some whites included" but you don't believe the same for the "other" category. They should both be in the same boat, unless it wasn't themselves who declared a category.
 
At what point can we stop looking at people in terms of their race, and instead just view them as people? In five years? In ten? In fifty?

How about now?

Are you really that naive or are you just stirring the pot?

----------

Focus is lost. In two years they have brilliantly invented a phone with a screen 0.7 inches larger. I'm feeling kinda done at this point.

Don't let the door hit you in the....
 
Mexican's don't use hispanic to refer to ourselves. Anyone born here would be mexican or if you became a citizen you would be also. Just like anyone that becomes citizens of the usa are american's. White people, "sons of europeans", are criollo's. You would be caucasian, but your wife would be criollo and your kids would be criollo as someone of european ethnicity born in mexico. Nobody would call them "hispanic" here, latino would be used. Mixed race people are mestizo's and indidgenous are, well indigeno. These 3 are 90 something percent of the races, there are negro's, etc.

No, it's not a race, and it's only kindasorta defined along racial features. It's more a grouping than anything. Like if I were to move to Mexico tomorrow, I'd be a caucasian, and probably always be considered a caucasian, no matter how long I stayed there. But my kids or grandkids would probably be considered hispanic, even if I married a straight up European descent white Mexican woman.

It's just a word referring to a group of people from a certain part of the world who predominantly speak a certain language and have a roughly similar culture.

----------



Oh, we know.

...we know. :mad:
 
It is a discrimination against white people period.

Actually, Asians are harmed most by Affirmative Action. White numbers (admission/hiring) are approximately the same with/without Racial Discrimination Programs.

There was a study by a Princeton researcher released years ago.
 
This study was to study race relations in America and come out with a consensus. It was never completed, but you can read about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_America_Initiative
 
Couldn't that also be true of the other races also, unless you have some proof that everyone that did not claim their race is white.

The point is probably all of the races are low.

It annoys me to see how Apple have doctored their statistics to make the white percentage look as low as possible. If you look at this pie chart (courtesy of Ars technica) you'll see that the 55% whites are counted separately from those who didn't declare their race.

Image

So we are to assume that NONE of the 9% undeclared are white? No, this pie chart shouldn't include the yellow segment at all. The fraction of workers who are white (based on the data we actually have) is 55/91, which is just over 60%.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.