Apple Releases New PowerMacs

[pjkelnhofer]

If any of Steve J's suboord's are reading this:

Boo.

This has to either be a bandaid or delay. Either way, I am not allocating budget for a .5ghz speed bump. Looks like another 12 months (factor in announcement to ship) before I replace our workstations.

Why no default 9800XT? Economics...this hardware *has* to be profitable for Apple.

We wait till WWDC to see any, "and another thing..." surprise.

Why are we making it sound like 500MHz is nothing? How long ago were we all using 500MHz computers (personally I still am)?

Is there anything that people here would have been happy with? If it was 3 GHz, then it would be the video cards that suck, if it had x800 (which probably don't exist for Mac yet) they wouldn't have enough RAM, if they had 1 GB of RAM then people would complain that Bluetooth wasn't standard, if Bluetooth was standard, why don't I get a wireless keyboard and mouse, etc.

I Apple has set them up nicely, I would expect more updates by the end of the year. The liquid cooling in the 2.5GHz suggests faster chips to come within the current design. At $1999 for a Dual 1.8GHz G5, I don't care what video card is in it. That is a pretty good computer for the money.

I agree this is not what we expected, but as usual, our expectations were very, very high. Let's all catch our breath and realize that a Dual 2.5 GHz G5 is a pretty fast computer, and at $2999 the price is comparable to similar Intel/AMD based systems.

 

[DGFan]

sorry. but surely THESE models ARE targetted at graphic proffesionals...??

In part. But video editing pros don't need the faster graphics card. Sound editing pros don't need the faster graphics cards. I would even question the need of someone working in Quark or inDesign for the new graphics cards (heck most people in Quark are still running OS9 so you know *they* don't have the latest graphics cards).

All of the above should be well served by a 9800.
(edit: actually a 9600 should work for them but if they really want the power a 9800 is available)

Are photoshop pros even going to need the faster cards? How much photoshop work can be offloaded to the GPU? And the 256MB VRAM on the 9800 should be enough for the large dualie monitor setup with room to spare.

(edit: so all we're left with is the Lightwave and Maya folks - and IMO that's not enough to change the base configuration)

 

[deedee]

I do not know if anyone else has noticed this, but the new models ar running with dual frontside busses. The 1.8 has dual 900mhz and the dual 2.0 has dual 1ghz. If you ask me that is a good speed increase.

 

[ewinemiller]

Bad:
No dual layer superdrive as BTO ? Well maybe too early, but I really hope for the next revision.

Not too early, Dell's offering it on laptops already!

 

[DGFan]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html

I bet the 2.0 on top should read 2.5 and the first 1.8 should read 2.0

 

[DGFan]

Whatever happened to all those leftover previous low end machines (1.6)? There are no new ones in the Special Deals section as they usually have after a new product introduction. I was just thinking about getting an entry level PowerMac and there's no way I am paying 2000 for dual 1.8. The previous lineup included some more affordable and reasonably-priced machines.

I also wonder if someone ordered G5 1.6 in the last week or so whether they got an upgrade to 1.8. Just for information purposes.

Wasn't there a special deal Apple was running internally for the 1.6s? I seem to recall reading about that a few weeks ago.

 

[brap]

Consumer grade? With dual 1.25 GHz frontside bus? And dual G5/2.5?

Yeah. Consumer grade system with a kickass core. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but the stock RAM you get, the stock video card, lack of GBit Ethernet, lack of dual-layer DVDRW, lack of everything else companies like Dell use to differentiate between consumer and professional grade.

A video card isn't the only thing defining a machine. By any standards, these are exceptionally powerful desktop systems.

Agreed, they are powerful, but come on - only with major league upgrades. This should be as standard - which business in their right mind would make the jump over to Mac if the cost to make their "professional grade" equipment satisfactory in the real world is so disproportinately high?

 

[csimmons]

To the whiners...

Are any of you over 16?

I wonder, because:

-living by the rumor sites;
-saying "Well, I'm not gonna buy a G5 now because Steve Jobs lied", etc.
-bad-mouthing Apple because of something they had little control over (IBM makes the G5 chip, NOT APPLE

all seems a little childish to me.

I do agree that Steve Jobs' mouth should "stop writing checks that his @ss can't cash", as we say in my neighborhood.

 

[DGFan]

Liquid cooling mus tme a last resort. If the 2.5's could run air cooled without it they would. In the PC world liquid cooleing is used most often to make overclocking stable. It's a bad sign (though the technology's interesting and efficient). Clearly Apple are pushing that 2.5 so hard it'd burn up without a liquid cooling solution. I imagine they were utterly desperate to get to 3GHz and failed (at least with enough volume).

I disagree. In the early days (like my original 486) CPUs just had fans. Eventually they upgraded to giant heat sinks with fans. Was this a "bad sign"? No, it's just that sometimes to advance you have to get creative. If you can't make a chip run just as cool as the previous generation, there is nothing wrong with improving how you cool the chip.

 

[HiRez]

Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall at the big Apple-IBM summit meeting, where Steve asks "OK, what's it gonna be? Dual 3.0's or quad 2.5's? Nobody's leaving this conference room till we have an answer!"

I won't be buying these machines at their current prices, but I'd put down my credit card for a $2,500 quad 1.8 GHz PowerMac right now! Or $3,500 quad 2.5 GHz. Imagine being Apple and getting to advertise a 10 Gigahertz personal computer!

 

[media_jedi]

Something to think about in regards to clock speeds and prices

Something we should really take into consideration is that a dual G5 2.5 GHZ processor (if it ships in July) will be the highest clock speed for a mainstream 64 Bit processor. AMD ( the only real comparison) with their Opteron CPU has only just shipped a 2.4GHz part and this part is in very limited availability.

Also if we look at pricing to build similar units, (and I mean actually using decent parts in the PC/Opteron and not just the cheapest junk you can find) you will notice there actually isn't much of a price difference at all.

Here is an example of parts available in Toronto, Canada for a good Opteron build:

Remember these prices are in good old Canadian dollars and the exchange rate is about $1.35 CAD for every $US dollar.

Opteron Box

2 2.0 GHZ CPU $689x2 $1378
MSI*K8T Master2 FAR K8T800, Dual CPU $315
KingMax 256MB*PC-3200 DDR400*SDRAM $73 x2 $146
Lian-Li PC-68 Aluminum Case $198
Antec True 430 PSU $109
Pioneer DVR-107 OEM $127
Seagate 160 S-ATA 8MB Cache $168
Sapphire Radeon™ 9600XT 128MB*DDR $244
Win XP*Pro Full OEM *for sale with system only $229
Microsoft Keyboard PS/2 & USB*OEM $39
Microsoft WheelMouse Optical OEM $23
BT 3-port FireWire 800 PCI*Card $68

Opteron 2.4GHZ option $1139x2 $2278


Dual Opteron 2.0 GHZ System $3044 Dual Opteron 2.4 GHZ System $3944

Notes on the above systems, the Li-an Li Case is nice but nowhere near as well-built (or classy looking) as the G5 case, and the included G5 keyboard/mouse are nicer as well. If you want to go with liquid cooling in your 2.4GHZ machine the cheapest full kit I could find was:

Thermaltake A1604 Aquarius II $174.98

Could you build the same system cheaper? Yes, if you want to use inferior parts that don't compare to their Apple equivalents.

Now the equivalent Apple Systems are as follows (modem removed since their is no modem in the Opteron System):

Dual 2.0GHZ Apple G5 Upgrading to 9600XT and removing 56k modem = $3528
Dual 2.5 GHZ Apple G5 removing the 56K Modem =$4158


So our price difference for very comparable systems is $484 for the 2.0 GHZ systems and $214 for the 2.4/2.5GHZ systems (only $40 if you go with the liquid cooling option).

Of course there are cons for each system, like no PCI-X or independent PCI buses on the Opteron systems (the lack of independent buses is vital for AVID DNA users, and other high end external storage usages), lack of room for drive upgrades on the G5 systems, and lack of higher end video card options. Of course when you purchase the G5 you get to use OSX and have access to Apple's wonderful pro applications like Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, and Logic Audio.

All I'm trying to say with this rambling post is that the current G5 lineup is actually a pretty good value for the power that you are getting. I'm not a Mac Fanatic per say, I've got three computers in my video lab 2 PCS, and a Powerbook, but I do feel for top end pro stations these new G5 towers are great products. Of course if I have the money I'll buy both an Opteron system and a G5 2.5 GHz but that is another story.

take care

 

[agreenster]

I

AM

SHOCKED


Not what I expected at ALL. Liquid cooled? Woah. 2.5? Woah. Such a gap between 2 and 2.5. Woah.

Still offering crappy video cards? Woah.

 

[blackcrayon]

Yeah. Consumer grade system with a kickass core. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but the stock RAM you get, the stock video card, lack of GBit Ethernet, lack of dual-layer DVDRW, lack of everything else companies like Dell use to differentiate between consumer and professional grade.

Lack of Gbit Ethernet? Err what do you mean? They all have gigabit ethernet... Unless you mean lack of TWO gigabit ethernet ports?

 

[vrc]

I'm sorry, but what a disappointment! I recently sold my Dual 2 GHz, because unlike Apple's usual designs, it is really too big with no real expansion. I was hoping that the service manual shots, which clearly show a smaller Mobo, was what we were going to get. In the service manual shots it looked like we would be able to add additional drives. More PCI slots would be nice too. I'm sure this is just an interim machine until what loooks to be heat issues are resolved and maybe then the 3 GHz will be here. December/ January should be about right.

 

[DGFan]

Such a gap between 2 and 2.5. Woah.

They are probably having yield problems above 2.0 Ghz. It would make sense in those circumstances to offer just one model that can ship in quantity rather than offering two models that both have backlogs.

 

[BrianKonarsMac]

has anyone else noticed ADC is here to stay? at least for now. Well this update certainly makes me happy I didn't wait, and makes every owner of a dual 1.8 or 2.0 laugh at all the waiters. Me and my Rev C 12" are pointing our fingers at you. What happened to Gigabit Ethernet!?!?!?!?!?

 

[macridah]

What about the xServes? Would it be too early to upgrade those. I think it would be of best interest to get those up to speed so when companies built supercomputers, they get the highest ranking possible. Boy, Virgina Tech would be pissed -- i want another trade in ... ha.

 

[justytylor]

Cute. But, since you're not aware, I should inform you. Apple caters to the graphics professional. I don't think it's getting carried away that people are upset at Apple for putting in older cards. It might not affect your emailing, but it does play into businesses that need some serious video editing done.

I don't know if anybody pointed this out yet, but:

VIDEO EDITING DOES NOT RELY ON THE VIDEO CARD! I don't know where people get these ideas, but I keep seeing the misconception iggyb repeats here. Editing video relies on bus speed, drive speed, and the main processors. Photoshop, for the most part, does not rely on the GPU to process its filters and effects. I'm not sure about the relationship between GPUs and 3D graphics rendering beyond how important they are for games, but I do know that with some very few exceptions, the GPU is not used for film or even video-level 3D rendering. One exception is the Balrog from Fellowship of the Ring: the fire effects were animated sprites mapped to a 3D structure and animated in realtime using an ATi card. It's in Cinefex if anyone wants to track it down.

3D hardware accelerates two things: games and QuartzExtreme.

Sorry about the rant, but I got tired of seeing this. You know what: for all of you fence sitters, if you bought the machine, you'd be the happiest Mac user on the planet. My 1.6 GHz G5 hasn't let me down yet, and it's long in the tooth (how?) and "crippled."

Yes, I'm an apologist. But I'm also a realist: does it do what you need? Yes? Then get it and stop complaining about things you don't understand.

 

[dopefiend]

take care

Remember though jedi, these systems will have to be good for a 6 month to year period or so.

The 3 ghz isn't coming out for a while, (said by apple official) and opterons will continue to climb and get cheaper

 

[mactarkus]

Speed bump is faster than my whole Mac

I've been waiting impatiently for nearly a year now. Since my primary machine is a G4/800 iMac, 1 GHz of a bump quickly swallows my whole computer not to mention those are 64-bit G5 processors. I'd buy today if they had an ATI x800 or an nVidia 6800 *and* Cinema displays to match the G5s. If I'm going to do it, I'm going do it all the way.

 

[displaced]

What the fsck happened to the 9800 XT? Didn't the X800 just come out, why aren't they using that???

I think the current thinking behind the lagging of Mac graphics cards is the lead-time involved in incorporating ADC support. Manufacturing a (relatively) small number of custom cards must create some kind of delay, assuming that the ADC-variant is developed after the standard board has been produced, tested and released.

Of couse, rumours that the new displays will drop the ADC requirement should help to alleviate this. IIRC, the only difference between the PC and Mac cards is slightly different code in the board's firmware.

 

[kcmac]

Anyone seen this?

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800proseme/index.html

Just announced today.

 

[brap]

Lack of Gbit Ethernet? Err what do you mean? They all have gigabit ethernet... Unless you mean lack of TWO gigabit ethernet ports?

My bad. Was under the impresison the onboard ethernet was still 10/100, with the PCI-X GBit upgrade an option.

 

[killmoms]

I think the current thinking behind the lagging of Mac graphics cards is the lead-time involved in incorporating ADC support. Manufacturing a (relatively) small number of custom cards must create some kind of delay, assuming that the ADC-variant is developed after the standard board has been produced, tested and released.

Of couse, rumours that the new displays will drop the ADC requirement should help to alleviate this. IIRC, the only difference between the PC and Mac cards is slightly different code in the board's firmware.

Please try reading the whole thread before you post; this was already addressed. The primary problem of Mac graphics cards lagging behind PC ones is that the ROM on the card needs to be re-written to interface with the Mac's Open Firmware, which is significantly different than PC's BIOS.

--Cless

 

[pjkelnhofer]

For everyone complaining that these are too slow and/or expensive. I would like some one to post a Intel/AMD based system with similiar performance/specs at the same price:

• Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
• 1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
• 250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
• 8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)

Subtotal $3,520.00

This is simply what you pay for this sort of performance.

If the G5 iMacs are truly coming at WWDC, they will take care of the sub-$2000 market for Apple. The PowerMacs (now more than ever) are for people with a need for raw power. I would expect Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Motion, etc. All of the high-end Apple Software to soon be optimized to run on a Dual G5 system. When that happens this computers will really fly!