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The problem with getting sucked into an anti-Apple narrative is that everything can be interpreted as a hint that Apple is failing, if that is all you are on the lookout for.

By this logic, Apple can never try anything new ever. Times change, Apple is simply evolving their sales tactics in keeping with the times like any responsive company would, and that’s really all there is to it.

Apple can try new stuff whenever they want, though advertising deals is hardly innovative. Now I see you’ve got the first part, let’s see if you can connect the dots. Apple is in fact changing their sales tactics, that’s true. Now ask yourself why is Apple changing their sales tactics? Not moving as many units as they used to perhaps.
 
Apple can try new stuff whenever they want, though advertising deals is hardly innovative. Now I see you’ve got the first part, let’s see if you can connect the dots. Apple is in fact changing their sales tactics, that’s true. Now ask yourself why is Apple changing their sales tactics? Not moving as many units as they used to perhaps.
Or maybe Apple is moving more than they expected but really wanted to move the needle even more. Hard to tell. Of course each can have their own suppositions.
 
Apple can try new stuff whenever they want, though advertising deals is hardly innovative. Now I see you’ve got the first part, let’s see if you can connect the dots. Apple is in fact changing their sales tactics, that’s true. Now ask yourself why is Apple changing their sales tactics? Not moving as many units as they used to perhaps.

I can think of a couple of reasons that don’t involve the reason “ The iPhone XR is flopping”.

One possibility could that not many people are aware that Apple buys used phones, and so Apple could be trying to raise attention to this arrangement.

Second, I suspect Apple is also trying to beef up their efforts to sell more iPhones through their direct channels, rather than via carriers.

Third, more people buying iPhones are likely already existing iPhone owners. Trade-ins matter more than ever, which brings us back to the first two points. In addition, second-hand iPhones still fetch a reasonable price in the grey market, and Apple wants those used iPhones to end up with them, rather than some third party. Hence the higher quoted prices.

Revenue-wise, people still pay the same amount for the iPhone XR. While this also means that Apple learns less from selling second-hand iPhones, a lower profit is better than no profit at all (and they don’t earn anything if the consumer doesn’t trade in the smartphone with them).

It may very well be possible that demand for iPhones is lower compared to previous years, but I don’t see what Apple has done here as evidence that they are desperate to move excess iPhone inventory. Apple is simply evolving its retail strategy in recognition that the bulk of their sales will come from upgraders rather than new users.

Apple would likely still have done all this even if the Xr had debuted at a lower price. Or maybe the price was set at that level to factor all this in. Either way, I feel it is too much of a stretch to go from “Apple launches new retail promotions for the iPhone” to “Apple has lost a fifth of its market value” and conclude with “Apple is at a disadvantage with every one of their R&D projects”.

It’s just ridiculous.
 
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The problem with getting sucked into an anti-Apple narrative is that everything can be interpreted as a hint that Apple is failing, if that is all you are on the lookout for.

By this logic, Apple can never try anything new ever. Times change, Apple is simply evolving their sales tactics in keeping with the times like any responsive company would, and that’s really all there is to it.

So much this.

The world would be a better place if people put aside their preconceived ideas and evaluated evidence objectively to arrive at their views—rather than the other way around.

It’s even more messed up on things like this stuff than, say, politics. Why should anyone (with a few exceptions) here even care that much about “proving” that a random company is succeeding or failing? I think it’s great take an active interest in a company that makes interesting products. Having a nearly religious view about that company is quite another thing altogether.
 
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I can think of a couple of reasons that don’t involve the reason “ The iPhone XR is flopping”.

One possibility could that not many people are aware that Apple buys used phones, and so Apple could be trying to raise attention to this arrangement.

Second, I suspect Apple is also trying to beef up their efforts to sell more iPhones through their direct channels, rather than via carriers.

Third, more people buying iPhones are likely already existing iPhone owners. Trade-ins matter more than ever, which brings us back to the first two points. In addition, second-hand iPhones still fetch a reasonable price in the grey market, and Apple wants those used iPhones to end up with them, rather than some third party. Hence the higher quoted prices.

Revenue-wise, people still pay the same amount for the iPhone XR. While this also means that Apple learns less from selling second-hand iPhones, a lower profit is better than no profit at all (and they don’t earn anything if the consumer doesn’t trade in the smartphone with them).

It may very well be possible that demand for iPhones is lower compared to previous years, but I don’t see what Apple has done here as evidence that they are desperate to move excess iPhone inventory. Apple is simply evolving its retail strategy in recognition that the bulk of their sales will come from upgraders rather than new users.

Apple would likely still have done all this even if the Xr had debuted at a lower price. Or maybe the price was set at that level to factor all this in. Either way, I feel it is too much of a stretch to go from “Apple launches new retail promotions for the iPhone” to “Apple has lost a fifth of its market value” and conclude with “Apple is at a disadvantage with every one of their R&D projects”.

It’s just ridiculous.

While those are certainly real possibilities, the simplest conclusion to reach is that sales are less than Apple would like, not that the Xr or Xs are necessarily ‘flopping’ though. Especially when you put all the pieces together: these sales tactics, Apple no longer wanting to release unit sales, and a widely recognized saturation of the smartphone market as a whole.

Also, Apple has in fact lost a fifth of its market capitalization. It was the first trillion dollar company, but is now valued at only $800 billion. I will allow Apple a lot of slack here and say that a large chunk of that loss is not due to Apple or Tim Cook, but a certain world leader wreaking havoc on the markets with their tweets and trade tactics. I don’t recall anyone saying Apple is at a disadvantage with respect to their R&D projects.
 
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While those are certainly real possibilities, the simplest conclusion to reach is that sales are less than Apple would like, not that the Xr or Xs are necessarily ‘flopping’ though. Especially when you put all the pieces together: these sales tactics, Apple no longer wanting to release unit sales, and a widely recognized saturation of the smartphone market as a whole.

Also, Apple has in fact lost a fifth of its market capitalization. It was the first trillion dollar company, but is now valued at only $800 billion. I will allow Apple a lot of slack here and say that a large chunk of that loss is not due to Apple or Tim Cook, but a certain world leader wreaking havoc on the markets with their tweets and trade tactics. I don’t recall anyone saying Apple is at a disadvantage with respect to their R&D projects.
I think your first paragraph is accurate, but the emphasis belongs on the last sentence. This is a market phenomenon. It’s become harder and harder to make the argument every year or two to upgrade. Manufacturers thus have two choices, neither good:
1) offer cheaper products in a race to the bottom in a volume-based approach (this has not, is not, and never will be a strategic approach Apple even considers)
2) offer more expensive cutting edge features of questionable utility (see any marketing discussion of “features” vs “benefits”) but that cost more and therefore result in a more expensive product, and hope enough people find the value proposition compelling.

I don’t think the primary concern is this quarter or this fiscal year. Sales will be just fine, and it’ll be another record-breaking quarter. It’s next year and the year thereafter that people should focus on because that’s where the worries come in. And that’s what’s hit Apple’s stock price disproportionately. The valuation metrics were a bit rosy beforehand, which is something I’ve been saying for a while now. Not crazy, but Apple was far from a “value” play, contrary to what others on here might have you believe. This correction was actually a bit overdue.
 
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While those are certainly real possibilities, the simplest conclusion to reach is that sales are less than Apple would like, not that the Xr or Xs are necessarily ‘flopping’ though. Especially when you put all the pieces together: these sales tactics, Apple no longer wanting to release unit sales, and a widely recognized saturation of the smartphone market as a whole.

Which brings me back to my original point. If you think Apple is doomed, then everything they do will seem that way to you, and you will not even be able to start entertaining alternative possibilities or explanations.

Here's what I do think. I feel that sales of iPhones may not be as strong as what Apple would like, but this is despite their current prices, not because of them. Lowering the prices is not going to have a noticeable impact on either sales or Apple's bottom line. We don't know Apple's own internal sales expectations. We know that some Apple component suppliers have had order reductions, but we don't know which models they were for, or if this was countermanded by a corresponding increase in orders somewhere else.

I would argue that ultimately, it really all boils down to the critics here wanting to see the current Apple fail. The discontent has been rumbling for some time, between Apple's perceived neglect of the Mac, coupled with their renewed focus on the iPad, rising prices and entering of new markets which the critics feel that Apple has no business dabbling in (not least because they perceive these new enterprises as the main reason for Apple's apparent lack of enthusiasm for the Mac).

They can't even begin to envision, much less accept, that perhaps the way forward is with iOS, not macOS. They think Apple has lost its way, and are pretty much falling over themselves to latch onto every single piece of news that might suggest precisely that.

Also, Apple has in fact lost a fifth of its market capitalization. It was the first trillion dollar company, but is now valued at only $800 billion. I will allow Apple a lot of slack here and say that a large chunk of that loss is not due to Apple or Tim Cook, but a certain world leader wreaking havoc on the markets with their tweets and trade tactics. I don’t recall anyone saying Apple is at a disadvantage with respect to their R&D projects.
It's in the Bloomberg article linked in the first page, somewhere in the middle. Here is the excerpt.

Apple is working on several new products and services, including an augmented-reality headset, driverless car technology, and digital offerings like original video. Analysts also expect a new business model centered on subscriptions.

Those options are riskier than the iPhone, which for a decade enticed millions of consumers to hand over hundreds of dollars for a new handset every two years. The public hasn’t flocked to AR technology in the same way yet, while Netflix Inc. has a huge head start in digital video, Alphabet Inc.’s Waymo leads in autonomous vehicles, and Amazon.com Inc.’s Prime service has nailed subscriptions online.

All the top companies have lost a significant chunk of their market cap. In fact, Amazon at least has lost more than Apple (last I recall), but sure, pin this all on overpriced iPhones. The first is a fact, the latter is an opinion (and an extremely sensational and clickbaity one).

In their eyes, Apple just can't win. Especially when negative Apple news draws the clicks.
 
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Is that why Apple is blaring XR ads along with trade in prices all over the place? Resorting to push notifications and forum displays in stores reeks of desperation.



There was a production cut for both XR and XS but none for Max. Price would skyrocket next year if the XS Max sells the highest at those prices.
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You don't know that. Factually the S9 has the better hardware. The S9 display eats the XR display for breakfast.
It’s the other android OEMs that are earring into Samsung’s sales both at the high end and mid range. Apple’s sales are flat so they aren’t eating into into anyone’s sales.

However I don’t think Apple are doing anything out of the ordinary. Just adapting to the current sales climate.
 
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The problem with getting sucked into an anti-Apple narrative is that everything can be interpreted as a hint that Apple is failing, if that is all you are on the lookout for.

By this logic, Apple can never try anything new ever. Times change, Apple is simply evolving their sales tactics in keeping with the times like any responsive company would, and that’s really all there is to it.
Totally agree with your last 2 points.

I’ll just add that sometimes you have to try new stuff to beat your previous $88.1B in revenue in 90 days last year.

I see this as Apple just pushing hard to jam as many sales as possible into this busy 90 day period. They have to if they are going to show growth because they have a tough compare.

I don’t see Apple lowering the price of any new product, at least not directly as you said.
 
Unit sales are not the same as revenue.
For a normal service company that's true , But when your apple and you only support a Apple eco system, UNIT SALES DO MATTER A LOT . If your selling less units year over year your platform does not have a bright future and revenue will dwindle. You need good unit sales to make more revenue .
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Because people haven't recognized this is 2018 not 2007. Because people who have been buying apple products for a long time, believe the board of directors should have a direct line to listen to them because they know apple best. Because Steve Jobs is no longer with the world and that has created much cognitive dissonance for those who idolized his words. Because people who have been with apple for a long time believe they know apple better than the current management. Because Tim Cook makes sure Apple is doing whatever part it needs to for humanity.

Last but not least. Because Tim Cook who has done a great job (imo) is not Steve Jobs and people dislike him for that. He has had to move the Apple needle forward in a different direction than long time customers agree with. Apple with 250 million customers will not please everybody.
How many entirely new products have apple lanced sins steve past a way? not much, how many years does a apple computer go with out a update? OSX software like aperture, final cut just dont get enough updates , hm then there is keyboard gate . losing 1/4 of a trillon dollars on share prices by saying apple will not give out numbers about units sold. In my view he is a bad CEO and i would love for some one to take over and lead the company in to an new direction.
 
For a normal service company that's true , But when your apple and you only support a Apple eco system, UNIT SALES DO MATTER A LOT . If your selling less units year over year your platform does not have a bright future and revenue will dwindle. You need good unit sales to make more revenue.

Every year some people try to prove Apple is in trouble. But for real, this time.

Every year.
 
Apple can try new stuff whenever they want, though advertising deals is hardly innovative. Now I see you’ve got the first part, let’s see if you can connect the dots. Apple is in fact changing their sales tactics, that’s true. Now ask yourself why is Apple changing their sales tactics? Not moving as many units as they used to perhaps.
Actually, they have to move more units to achieve more revenue than ever before, so it’s not surprising to see tactics you haven’t heard about.

Also, we literally have no way of knowing the validity of this story because it’s entirely based on something “someone” said. We don’t know their credibility, we don’t know if this activity was planned, part of normal operations, or if it even happened or to what degree.

Until Apple reports numbers, let’s stop acting like these stories based on so little are true for a product as large and worldwide as the iPhone. It is impossible to know how well it’s doing from any one data point. Proven time and again with other “iPhone struggling” reports.
 
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How many entirely new products have apple lanced sins steve past a way?
iPhone 6 through Xs max. AirPods, Apple Watch, HomePod, new iPad, etc.

not much, how many years does a apple computer go with out a update? OSX software like aperture, final cut just dont get enough updates , hm then there is keyboard gate . losing 1/4 of a trillon dollars on share prices by saying apple will not give out numbers about units sold. In my view he is a bad CEO and i would love for some one to take over and lead the company in to an new direction.
That Apple got to $1T is Tim Cook’s accomplishment. He isn’t going anywhere involuntarily. In my view he took Apple where it needed to go and will turn over the reigns at an appropriate time.
 
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For a normal service company that's true , But when your apple and you only support a Apple eco system, UNIT SALES DO MATTER A LOT . If your selling less units year over year your platform does not have a bright future and revenue will dwindle. You need good unit sales to make more revenue .
[doublepost=1544702110][/doublepost]
How many entirely new products have apple lanced sins steve past a way? not Applemuch, how many years does a apple computer go with out a update? OSX software like aperture, final cut just dont get enough updates , hm then there is keyboard gate . losing 1/4 of a trillon dollars on share prices by saying apple will not give out numbers about units sold. In my view he is a bad CEO and i would love for some one to take over and lead the company in to an new direction.
If you think the Apple decline is completely because of not reporting unit sales, you literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

Google, Amazon, Facebook, Netflix, Nvidia, AMD, etc are all down as much or more than Apple during this 8 week period you’ve based you’re entire argument upon. Stocks go up and down, with typically a 50% range from high to low over a 52wk period. Stocks don’t trade at a new high every day. If Apple has achieved a $1T valuation, it will again.

Cook and his team just put up $60B in profit in 2018...second place was Google at $23B.

Stop acting like short term price fluctuations are an indictment of one of the best CEOs in the world.

Units sales aren’t declining...they are flat to up slightly. Apple sold 217M iPhones in 2018 and 216M in 2017, so actually more units at $110 higher ASPs.

If unit sales even decline slightly or stay flat, the $40B services business is growing at 25% and other products at 40%, which will more than offset.
 
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For a normal service company that's true , But when your apple and you only support a Apple eco system, UNIT SALES DO MATTER A LOT . If your selling less units year over year your platform does not have a bright future and revenue will dwindle. You need good unit sales to make more revenue .
[doublepost=1544702110][/doublepost]
How many entirely new products have apple lanced sins steve past a way? not much, how many years does a apple computer go with out a update? OSX software like aperture, final cut just dont get enough updates , hm then there is keyboard gate . losing 1/4 of a trillon dollars on share prices by saying apple will not give out numbers about units sold. In my view he is a bad CEO and i would love for some one to take over and lead the company in to an new direction.

I’m not one of the hardcore “Apple can do no wrong” types who have been replying to you.

But the first paragraph is not correct precisely because it IS an ecosystem with switching costs. Unit sales of other products matters, as does servicices revenue.

The idea that Timmy’s Apple is somehow different is a nice narrative but not based on facts. He’s fine. Not amazing, not terrible. It’s just not a space conducive to innovation right now.
 
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While those are certainly real possibilities, the simplest conclusion to reach is that sales are less than Apple would like, not that the Xr or Xs are necessarily ‘flopping’ though. Especially when you put all the pieces together: these sales tactics, Apple no longer wanting to release unit sales, and a widely recognized saturation of the smartphone market as a whole.

Also, Apple has in fact lost a fifth of its market capitalization. It was the first trillion dollar company, but is now valued at only $800 billion. I will allow Apple a lot of slack here and say that a large chunk of that loss is not due to Apple or Tim Cook, but a certain world leader wreaking havoc on the markets with their tweets and trade tactics. I don’t recall anyone saying Apple is at a disadvantage with respect to their R&D projects.
Conclusions in business are rarely simple.

You’re conflating stock prices with actual performance. Stock prices can do anything. The last official data from Apple we heard, the business is doing unbelievably wel. 20% revenue growth and 41% eps growth y/y.

Unit sales have been too much of a topic for 3 years and every investor knows unit sales are flat to low single digit growth. With unit sales going away, Apple will provide additional services disclosure and get analysts and investors to start focusing on the overall health of the business. Getting so caught up in 52M iPhones sold instead of a made up 53M analyst target was getting old.

Markets have been crazy the last 3-4 months and the Apple drop is certainly not specific to Apple. Look at AMZN, FB, GOOGL, NVDA, NFLX, and markets in general. Ugly.
 
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Too many people out there are saying the phones have gotten too expensive. It’s not rocket science Apple.

1) Not really. It’s a vocal minority. They’re still shattering sales records in revenue over there.

2) You’re right on the second part. It isn’t rocket science. It IS, however, basic accounting and corporate finance. The phones cost what they cost because of the component costs combined with Apple’s long-time standard markup. Nothing new here.
 
1) Not really. It’s a vocal minority. They’re still shattering sales records in revenue over there.

2) You’re right on the second part. It isn’t rocket science. It IS, however, basic accounting and corporate finance. The phones cost what they cost because of the component costs combined with Apple’s long-time standard markup. Nothing new here.
I see plenty of evidence for lots of people no longer buying the latest and greatest and if revenue is up and Apple are fine with it then great. We have so many articles and many members here opting for different options so the cream always levels out anyway.

I think a vocal minority say it how it is but most people simply buy cheaper models or stick with existing devices without offering an opinion either way. Times have changed and you no longer need the latest iPhone to get the job done or even be fashionable if that’s your thing.
 
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I see plenty of evidence for lots of people no longer buying the latest and greatest and if revenue is up and Apple are fine with it then great. We have so many articles and many members here opting for different options so the cream always levels out anyway.

I think a vocal minority say it how it is but most people simply buy cheaper models or stick with existing devices without offering an opinion either way. Times have changed and you no longer need the latest iPhone to get the job done or even be fashionable if that’s your thing.
That is just a lot of anecdotal evidence. Articles are not using confirmed data, but rather speculating and extrapolating to manipulate the stock.

The same thing was said last year about the iPhone X and it was a runaway success and the most popular iPhone in the lineup (Source: Apple conderence call).

Wait until we have some real data in January to decide if the pricing was too high.
 
That is just a lot of anecdotal evidence. Articles are not using confirmed data, but rather speculating and extrapolating to manipulate the stock.

The same thing was said last year about the iPhone X and it was a runaway success and the most popular iPhone in the lineup (Source: Apple conderence call).

Wait until we have some real data in January to decide if the pricing was too high.
I wouldn’t say the iPhone X was a runaway success. It was the most popular iPhone sold globally over the first 3 months of its release, and was one of eight models Apple offered. That’s a lot of iPhone options. It may explain why in many western countries it wasn’t even in the top three in terms of carrier sales. It did well under the circumstances but never broke any records and is still a relatively rare iPhone to spot in my experience, anecdotal or not.

Articles surface because mumbling from various sources. Whether they are true remains to be seen but we often relate to them due to our own experiences. I’ve seen 2 iPhone XR’s so far and I tend to try and see what people are using around me.
 
I wouldn’t say the iPhone X was a runaway success. It was the most popular iPhone sold globally over the first 3 months of its release, and was one of eight models Apple offered. That’s a lot of iPhone options. It may explain why in many western countries it wasn’t even in the top three in terms of carrier sales. It did well under the circumstances but never broke any records and is still a relatively rare iPhone to spot in my experience, anecdotal or not.

Articles surface because mumbling from various sources. Whether they are true remains to be seen but we often relate to them due to our own experiences. I’ve seen 2 iPhone XR’s so far and I tend to try and see what people are using around me.
It doesn’t matter what you see or feel about the iPhone X. Apple told us it was the most popular iPhone for at least 2 quarters straight on the investor call. They can’t lie. The data you’re talking about from carriers is all extrapolated and guesswork...not official numbers.

You see the impact of the iPhone X in the data. It boosted iPhone ASP from $650 to $761 in 2018, meaning something drove the ASP up $110 PER phone while still selling more units than in 2017.

Profit was up 23%, to a record $60 BILLION.

Third, the entire current new lineup is based on the X design, FaceID, etc. Apple bet the iPhone on this design, indicating they had confidence in its ability to drive sales.

As far as anecdotal goes, I see the Xr and X ALL the time. I was recently on vacation and literally almost every person I saw had a X style phone. That doesn’t matter though....we will get numbers in January and those are all that matter.

None of the iPhone conjecture is ever right when Apple reports.
 
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It doesn’t matter what you see or feel about the iPhone X. Apple told us it was the most popular iPhone for at least 2 quarters straight on the investor call. They can’t lie. The data you’re talking about from carriers is all extrapolated and guesswork...not official numbers.

You see the impact of the iPhone X in the data. It boosted iPhone ASP from $650 to $761 in 2018, meaning something drove the ASP up $110 PER phone while still selling more units than in 2017.

Profit was up 23%, to a record $60 BILLION.

Third, the entire current new lineup is based on the X design, FaceID, etc. Apple bet the iPhone on this design, indicating they had confidence in its ability to drive sales.

As far as anecdotal goes, I see the Xr and X ALL the time. I was recently on vacation and literally almost every person I saw had a X style phone. That doesn’t matter though....we will get numbers in January and those are all that matter.

None of the iPhone conjecture is ever right when Apple reports.
It was suggested in the news feed here not so long ago that more than 40% of all the iPhone X’s sold were purchased in the United States. You guys get the phone much cheaper and it’s no surprise you see more where you are. The whole pattern for upgrading in Europe has been different over the past 3 years and it’s most probably the reason we are not seeing them in abundance.

The iPhone X was the 7th most popular iPhone in the UK up to September. It’s no wonder 3 year contracts have just been introduced and you can now get a free TV and Apple Watch on some contracts here. The landscape has changed as less people are upgrading and the market is trying to react.
 
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It was suggested in the news feed here not so long ago that more than 40% of all the iPhone X’s sold were purchased in the United States. You guys get the phone much cheaper and it’s no surprise you see more where you are. The whole pattern for upgrading in Europe has been different over the past 3 years and it’s most probably the reason we are not seeing them in abundance.

The iPhone X was the 7th most popular iPhone in the UK up to September. It’s no wonder 3 year contracts have just been introduced and you can now get a free TV and Apple Watch on some contracts here. The landscape has changed as less people are upgrading and the market is trying to react.
The $761 ASP doesn’t happen with a bunch of old models being sold.
 
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