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Apple won't make the car self driving? Only if they don't want anyone to buy their car. The technology may not be ready today, but Tesla says that before the end of next year, they'll have fully self driving cars. If Apple doesn't launch a car until 2019, then it has to be fully self driving. Otherwise, it'll be far too little, far too late.
Almost every person hyping the eminent arrival of self driving cars seems to ignore 2 very big hurdles that aren't going to be solved anytime soon. The biggest issue, and this issue is going to take us beyond 2019, is our national infrastructure. Our roads are absolute crap overall. Until we can upgrade our roads and bridges self driving cars will be more a menace than savior. Reports already indicate self driving cars are clueless when dealing with potholes and faded lane markings. They also have trouble with the different configurations of traffic signals. Then there's the government. I'm not even going to address that group of circus clowns.


If Apple really wants to get into the car game though, they can.

They have over $200B in the bank. Making a car factory costs around $5B. So Apple could take that money and use it to build 40 factories around the world. Each of those factories could pump out 500k cars a year, so 20M cars total per year. That would cause Apple to have around 33% of the global car market.

Car manufacturing isn't a Field of Dreams "build it and they will come" scenario. If it was that easy, every car manufacturer would just build factories.
 
The financial case is that the Apple offshore workers are severely underpaid.
There really is no debate, there is solid information on this.
The cost of living in the USA is about 1.5 x - 2.5 higher than in China. But, when looking at wages of factory workers in the USA, factory workers in the USA are compensated about 12 x higher than in China.
There is a severe imbalance in the compensation, work hours and conditions at Apple's offshore workers.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/newscast/525
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/103
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/109
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/upfile/2015_02_11/Analyzing Labor Conditions of Pegatron and Foxconn_vF.pdf
https://www.techinasia.com/report-apple-shifted-production-pegatron-save-money-workers-exploited
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-pegatron-labour-idUSKBN0LG0P820150212
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463

I asked for a business case. How can you increase the salary of line workers without increasing product price so that product demand does not fall?
Foxconn has 1.3M employees. $1 more a month per employee means $15,600,000 a year. Just one dollar a month, which won't be even felt (and I am not even considering taxes and extra expenses) by the employee, causes quite a problem.
 
A car that is lighter and slimmer. Consumers will be fly away to the sky by a slight wind. Probably bendable car that require a case protection.
 
I asked for a business case. How can you increase the salary of line workers without increasing product price so that product demand does not fall?
Foxconn has 1.3M employees. $1 more a month per employee means $15,600,000 a year. Just one dollar a month, which won't be even felt (and I am not even considering taxes and extra expenses) by the employee, causes quite a problem.
You reduce the profit margin. There's no poor me situation at Cupertino. It's simple maths, not a complex problem.
 
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You reduce the profit margin. There's no poor me situation at Cupertino. It's simple maths, not a complex problem.

You can't reduce profit margin just because, especially in a company traded on Wall Street.
$1 more a day at foxconn translates to about half a billion a year. Do you think that Apple, or foxconn would decrease profit by half a billion a year? No. They would invest once $100B in machinery (at that point it would be profitable, especially because machines work 24/7 and don't complain) and get rid of disposable employees.
 
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Dying breed? Ha! Car enthusiast aren't even close to being a dying breed. As long as Porsche makes that lovely flat six, Ford's bonkers new Voodo V8, Yamaha's screaming V-10, Merc's AMG injected madness, Nissan's bullet proof V6... and that's just engines. We are in the heyday of power coupled with efficiency.

For some, driving is an experience in and of itself. Dying breed.

"Reports of our death are greatly exaggerated." - Mark Twain hammering his 350hp Focus RS

lol, well 1st let me say: I know better than to get into a car argument with a guy called "69 Mustang" ;0)
But please allow me a chance to at least convince you of the fact that- while muscle cars are FUN to drive, in 1969- gas was 35¢, we hadn't even heard of pollution, a war had never been fought over oil, there was no energy crisis, etc.
It is fair to say that: cars like the Tesla, while not "noisy", have some credibility in the 0-60 department & seemingly could certainly be far more of a fun drive than say.... a Prius! =)
I believe that we will NOT have to choose between enjoyable driving & caring about our world.
To be clear: it was NOT the passion for driving machines I was lashing out against... it was the op's assertion that caring about our environment is beneath him; that pompous type of attitude is embarrassing & hard to abide.
I have not seen anything in your posts to indicate that you hold contempt for our children's future whatsoever & fully respect your '69 Stang! :)
As a matter of fact.... keeping a car around for 47 years is VERY green!!!!!!
So, on behalf of earth & its residents: thank you.
 
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tumblr_nagxttJJr11qzwh14o1_r1_500.gif
 
So how much money do you want to lose?
c34387269a1996-mil1o.jpg

I'll bet you $5M. The only way you could win the bet is if the world ends and human driven cars were never made illegal. But the world is over, so money is meaningless at that point - you'll have gained nothing from winning your bet.

On the flip side, if at any point in time human driven cars are made illegal, you'll lose the bet.

Making bets that things will never happen is a very bad idea - you have to wait for the end of time to win, and can lose at any point until then.

In any event, I've already put down $1000 on the Model 3, betting that Tesla will have a fully self driving car for sale in 18 months. Of course, if I'm wrong, I can get a 100% refund, so it's not exactly a bet... I'm only out the interest that I could have otherwise earned on that money in that time.
 
designed by apple in California, assembled in Germany!
The best or NOTHING!
[doublepost=1460990274][/doublepost]
I'll bet you $5M. The only way you could win the bet is if the world ends and human driven cars were never made illegal. But the world is over, so money is meaningless at that point - you'll have gained nothing from winning your bet.

On the flip side, if at any point in time human driven cars are made illegal, you'll lose the bet.

Making bets that things will never happen is a very bad idea - you have to wait for the end of time to win, and can lose at any point until then.

In any event, I've already put down $1000 on the Model 3, betting that Tesla will have a fully self driving car for sale in 18 months. Of course, if I'm wrong, I can get a 100% refund, so it's not exactly a bet... I'm only out the interest that I could have otherwise earned on that money in that time.
the new e class in laws limitation is already a self driving car with award
 
You can't reduce profit margin just because, especially in a company traded on Wall Street.
$1 more a day at foxconn translates to about half a billion a year. Do you think that Apple, or foxconn would decrease profit by half a billion a year? No. They would invest once $100B in machinery (at that point it would be profitable, especially because machines work 24/7 and don't complain) and get rid of disposable employees.
You can't exploit Apple's offshore workers "just because", especially if they live in a different country, locked away in a special economic zone, in a factory out of sight.
The financial case is that the Apple offshore workers are severely underpaid.
There really is no debate, there is solid information on this.
The cost of living in the USA is about 1.5 x - 2.5 higher than in China. But, when looking at wages of factory workers in the USA, factory workers in the USA are compensated about 12 x higher than in China.
There is a severe imbalance in the compensation, work hours and conditions at Apple's offshore workers.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/newscast/525
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/103
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/109
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/upfile/2015_02_11/Analyzing Labor Conditions of Pegatron and Foxconn_vF.pdf
https://www.techinasia.com/report-apple-shifted-production-pegatron-save-money-workers-exploited
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-pegatron-labour-idUSKBN0LG0P820150212
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463
 
In any event, I've already put down $1000 on the Model 3, betting that Tesla will have a fully self driving car for sale in 18 months. Of course, if I'm wrong, I can get a 100% refund, so it's not exactly a bet...

Tesla Model 3 is NOT a self driving car! Your argument becomes less focal. Your credibility is not great when you make statements like this, no matter the point.
 
I'm rooting tesla for this one.
Elon has the vision. I'm certain there'll be more to come from Mr. Musk.
 
You can't exploit Apple's offshore workers "just because", especially if they live in a different country, locked away in a special economic zone, in a factory out of sight.

I truly respect your sentiment, I truly do. Trust me. I don't like the idea that tech is made that way. But there is a reality, and the reality is somewhat simple. Apple (or any other big) can't do otherwise. There is no way. China is a growing economy, its leaping forward from being a backward country to one of the most industrialized and modern countries is astounding. It takes time to adjust an economy of such scale. And they are doing much much better. It's not long ago that they had famines that exterminated millions of people, and some of them were caused by the government itself trying to impose ways to handle the market. Mao's Leap Forward caused about 50M (fifty million!) people to starve to death.
Nowdays China is faring much much better. It's actually one of the biggest tech markets now, and one of the biggest markets for iPhones! Finally, they see real cash. Again, for their economy this is a transitional period. Some in this generation will have to carry the burden of it. The problem is that an economy in a transitional period is also very unstable. A sneeze and the whole country goes back.
Now, it is evident that Chinese are doing much better now, specifically because with their transitional economy they are cheap yet enough industrially advanced. People work at Foxconn one or two years (two crappy years...) and then they go back to their city/village with more money they could've dreamed of... it's very telling that they find so many "underpaid" workers. There is one thing that would destroy everything: a decrease in demand. China can't allow a decrease in demand at this point. Once the economy is powerful and steady enough (10 years?), then yes, you can manage demand by maximizing profits (same thing that apple does!). But now that would cause a massive disruption to the economy.

The cost of living in the USA is about 1.5 x - 2.5 higher than in China. But, when looking at wages of factory workers in the USA, factory workers in the USA are compensated about 12 x higher than in China.

So? There are also less factory workers here, and they usually need certifications etc. You can work on a Chinese airplane with almost nothing, here you need A&P and so on. Different job markets.
 
Who'd buy one? When I buy a car, it's not based on tree hugging crap like economy, efficiency and how green it is, which is what Apple's effort will be.

When I buy a car it's based on (but not limited to) the following:

The history of the brand
Power
Speed
Sound
How much fun I am going to have driving it


And then you sit in traffic. If the Model 3 preorder is any indication, tons of people would buy one. Electric and performance arent mutually exclusive either.
 
Apple won't make the car self driving? Only if they don't want anyone to buy their car. The technology may not be ready today, but Tesla says that before the end of next year, they'll have fully self driving cars. If Apple doesn't launch a car until 2019, then it has to be fully self driving. Otherwise, it'll be far too little, far too late.
You are ridiculous. Nikola Tesla died 1943 and never said anything about self-driving cars. Elon Musk makes science fiction like statements twice a day without ever backing them up. He could as well say, the technology may not be ready today, but before the end of next year, we'll be able to beam me up Scotty. At least that wouldn't require a self-aware AI.
Elon has the vision. I'm certain there'll be more to come from Mr. Musk.
More crap talk!
 
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If Apple were to design a car and price it out of reach for most people it won't work.

If you are in the market for a higher-end BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz etc, why would you look at an unproven manufacturer with absolutely no track record in the automotive industry? If an Apple car is like everything else they do, it's technology will be designed to work with paid for apps to get the 'premium' experience.

I can see it now; Apple Maps comes free, but why not go for Apple Maps Premium? (which is still 4% as useful as the absolutely free Google Maps). How about Apple Music for the car? Every album you desire just one-click away! And what about vehicle tracking? To enable this feature to track your vehicle, it will cost only $600 for 3 years! Lets not forget the optional but absolutely essential Apple Car Care Plus plan that covers you for those accidental spillages on the seats, paint protection & alloy protection.

And what about the second revision? Will you upgrade your Apple car to get a 20% thinner steering wheel and 10% thinner bezels around the windows?
You just described most cars for sale now. You want heated and ventilated seats? Pay extra. Powered lift gate? Additional cost. You want Sirius XM radio after the first three months trial? Pay up. You want Sirius to to stop calling you three times a week to ask if you're absolutely sure you really don't want to subscribe? Too bad.
 
I truly respect your sentiment, I truly do. Trust me. I don't like the idea that tech is made that way. But there is a reality, and the reality is somewhat simple. Apple (or any other big) can't do otherwise. There is no way. China is a growing economy, its leaping forward from being a backward country to one of the most industrialized and modern countries is astounding. It takes time to adjust an economy of such scale. And they are doing much much better. It's not long ago that they had famines that exterminated millions of people, and some of them were caused by the government itself trying to impose ways to handle the market. Mao's Leap Forward caused about 50M (fifty million!) people to starve to death.
Nowdays China is faring much much better. It's actually one of the biggest tech markets now, and one of the biggest markets for iPhones! Finally, they see real cash. Again, for their economy this is a transitional period. Some in this generation will have to carry the burden of it. The problem is that an economy in a transitional period is also very unstable. A sneeze and the whole country goes back.
Now, it is evident that Chinese are doing much better now, specifically because with their transitional economy they are cheap yet enough industrially advanced. People work at Foxconn one or two years (two crappy years...) and then they go back to their city/village with more money they could've dreamed of... it's very telling that they find so many "underpaid" workers. There is one thing that would destroy everything: a decrease in demand. China can't allow a decrease in demand at this point. Once the economy is powerful and steady enough (10 years?), then yes, you can manage demand by maximizing profits (same thing that apple does!). But now that would cause a massive disruption to the economy.



So? There are also less factory workers here, and they usually need certifications etc. You can work on a Chinese airplane with almost nothing, here you need A&P and so on. Different job markets.
If you agree with the sentiment then don't go on to describe nonsense about why things shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't change. Let's find a way.
 
Dying breed? Please show me where sales of such cars are declining.

Every such manufacturer is seeing sales growing year on year. Even the absolute top-end marques like Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Aston Martin & Porsche can't build cars fast enough to meet the demand.

It's OK, he's clearly running on the trend of #teamignorant. Let them have their moment
 
You are ridiculous. Nikola Tesla died 1943 and never said anything about self-driving cars. Elon Musk makes science fiction like statements twice a day without ever backing them up. He could as well say, the technology may not be ready today, but before the end of next year, we'll be able to beam me up Scotty. At least that wouldn't require a self-conscious AI.
More crap talk!

Well... No car companies seriously consider developing e-cars prior to Tesla. In fact, GM developed the program and killed it in the end. Whether science fiction or not, it's inevitable current petrol combustion car would be a thing of the past.

As of now, Elon is probably the most disruptive personnel in the industry who doesn't conform to norms and willingly to push forward once-available technology to its consumer. I don't think anyone with no vision could so happen to be involved in the space and solar business. ;)
 
Here's a list of quotes of things that will *never* happen.... but.. they did:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/05/never-say-never-20-quotes-reminding-doers-to-keep-dreaming/

Here's one to sample:
“There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom.”

— Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923


AI will improve.. guaranteed. Saying "never" is somewhat shortsighted.

Over half a century in failed AI research is also a very long time.​


How can we walk when our earth is turning?
How do we drive while our cars are burning?

Before an AI can handle random situations it must be conscious of itself and the outside universe.​


Only then the AI is able to make its own reasonable decisions.


Let there be light!​
 
If you agree with the sentiment then don't go on to describe nonsense about why things shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't change. Let's find a way.

Well, agreeing on the sentiment doesn't mean that we agree on everything else.
What I am trying to tell you is that China is already changing for the better. It just takes time and a lot of effort. They're doing an outstanding job although with some questionable practices (see monetary policy).
 
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