Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
You know what's relevant in the environment? Everything - dust, smoke, fog, rain, snow, ice, sand, leaves. In England it's even raining cats and dogs. To differentiate you need a concept of the whole world. We don't even let humans drive until they are of age. Eighteen years of preparation. What stops a self-driving car from driving right into a tornado? Nothing. It will never know what's what.

"Never" is a long time. The sensors built into the car can be better then human eyes and we can place many of them on the car that look in all directions at once. In addition a car might tap into sensors mounted on signals at intersections to "see" around corners and cars might share sensor data so that can know what is happening a mile up the road and on nearby roads.

Yes a kid has to wait 18 years to drive (or 16 in some places) but cars are the number one cause of death to 18 year olds.

That said, I think it will always be the case that a human has to tell the car where to go

Don't say "never" in 50 years things will be different

I might ask what stops a human driver from running his car into a pedestrian or some other car or from driving while drunk. The statistics show us the human driven cars are very dangerous and a leading cause of death for young people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tycho24
Over half a century in failed AI research is also a very long time.

Hmm. Didn't know that walking was going to be part of the AI driver experience. Good to know. Also, the Chinese have had rockets for a 1,000 years, so was that all "failed research" until Gargarin in 1961?
 
Apple's phone: $100 production cost in China, they sell millions = $600 for the buyer
Apple's car won't be cheap.

My guess is the first model year will be just south of $100K and become instant collector cars just like the Tesla Roadster.
 
If you think for a second the camera protruding must be a technical necessity.
For most people with cases that's not even an issue.

Objecting to the antenna bands showing where they are is also a personal taste.

None of it impedes functioning.

Again for klutzes like me with a case on my 6S no issues.
I didn't say it was a technical necessity. If that's the bar, then why bother with clean lines as well.
I can't stand the sight of either the antenna lines and protruding cameras. Just awful. It just says to me that Apple was careless in the final design. A company with such resources couldn't even get two little things like that right, what will become of their first car if that is the standard. Weird joins in unusual places in the car's exterior and interior just because Apple couldn't figure something out? I truly hope not.
 
Don't say "never" in 50 years things will be different
Agree. One thing from looking at the past world fares and other predictions is that, "future thinkers" get it right with technology but not implementation nor use.

The idea of the self driving car with drivers placed as passive participants will never take off as a whole solution. While the utopian control freaks love the idea, history has shown that this type of centralized coordination always becomes the target of special interests never benefiting society as a whole.

My guess is we'll see some sort of middle ground with cars of every type of automation on the road from petcock and manual transmissions still on the road up to full autonomous operation. The less of automation you have in your car, the more right-of-way you have on the road.
 
Almost every person hyping the eminent arrival of self driving cars seems to ignore 2 very big hurdles that aren't going to be solved anytime soon. The biggest issue, and this issue is going to take us beyond 2019, is our national infrastructure. Our roads are absolute crap overall. Until we can upgrade our roads and bridges self driving cars will be more a menace than savior. Reports already indicate self driving cars are clueless when dealing with potholes and faded lane markings. They also have trouble with the different configurations of traffic signals. Then there's the government. I'm not even going to address that group of circus clowns.

Car manufacturing isn't a Field of Dreams "build it and they will come" scenario. If it was that easy, every car manufacturer would just build factories.

Everyone would agree that pure AI isn't ready for full time use. But I bet it will be in 10 years--and that's almost no time at all.

And car manufacturing doesn't require "magic dust" and 100 years of history to make cars. Proven components are available from the same sources as ALL the others use--Aisin, ZF, Bosch, Magna, Johnson, Delphi, BASF, Dana, Hitachi--and hundreds of others. Assembly and JIT inventory control are not mysteries either, nor is the software for robotic assembly. Even Ford, Chevy and Renault sell engines to other manufacturers.

Do you really think there is some mystical institutional knowledge in "Old Steel" that is indecipherable to outsiders? Seeing as how the entire workforce at a car company is replaced every 15-20 years on average, apparently the new hires from management and engineering on down are able to get up to speed without much difficulty.
 
My guess is we'll see some sort of middle ground with cars of every type of automation on the road from petcock and manual transmissions still on the road up to full autonomous operation. The less of automation you have in your car, the more right-of-way you have on the road.
I think there will be a gradual reversal of the tendency to defer to non-automated cars. Certain lanes and even roadways will be designated as Autonomous-only, like HOV lanes are today. Since the automated cars can cooperate actively and passively, traffic will flow more smoothly in these lanes.
 
Over half a century in failed AI research is also a very long time.​

Yes many projects fail. It they all did not fail then I would argue the research goals were to easy and to conservative. You should want a certain percent of failure in advanced reattach.

But there is also huge success. Look at Siri. OK it is not perfect, not even close but continuos speech recognition was at one time an unrealized team of the AI community and now it is common place.

One other thing, don't fault AI because it does not have better than human capability. For example human driven cars killed 1,250,000 people last year alone. That is like exploding an atomic bomb over a small city every year. Self driving cars don't need to be perfect, they only need to kill less then a million people for be an improvement.

Yes, over a million killed world wide, 33,000 last year in the US alone. 260,000 in China

Humans are not really so good at what they do. We misunderstand each other and ask the other person to repeat, we run cars into trees we invest money in scams and kids fail math class. If AI were only as good at playing chess as the average human we'd say the AI sucked big time. If AI were only as good as humans at driving we'd bad it from the roads.

Think of it this way, if AI, self driving cars killed 500,000 people in one year it would mean it saved the lives of 750,000 people. It does not need to be perfect to be better then human because humans are really, really bad at driving. We are on average really bad at math. Only a few people are good at some things, AI only has to be better than the average human not better than the best human
[doublepost=1461004760][/doublepost]
I think there will be a gradual reversal of the tendency to defer to non-automated cars. Certain lanes and even roadways will be designated as Autonomous-only, like HOV lanes are today. Since the automated cars can cooperate actively and passively, traffic will flow more smoothly in these lanes.

It will creep in gradually. Already we have an announcement that in a couple years EVERY car (in the US) will have automated breaks. Next steering controls that prevent you from turning into some object like another car. These safety features will be added one by one until finally you can take your hands off the wheel and turn around to talk to the person in the back seat without hitting anything. Once the basic car is safe enough that even a drunk can't hit anything, then you can turn the driving over to the AI. The safety features will prevent the AI from crashing the car the same way they prevent the drunk from crashing the car. The layers are independent so the whole thing does not fail at once

The safety systems are layered. Will still have dual cylinder brakes and the next layer is anti-skid sensors on the heels and then we have the collision sensor to automatically apply the brakes, they will add more and more layers until finally you don't need a driver, so it will be gradual, I think over 20 years or more.
 
Last edited:
That's just the American car market where you have to pay extra for things that come as standard on most European cars. The American car industry operates like it's still the 1960's. This explains why they haven't made a truly great car since the 60's.

Even the American muscle cars of the 70's and 80's were just poorly made pieces of metal that just happened to make a load of admittedly great sounding noise. They were absolute crap to drive and most even started to rust before they left the factory.

Truish...but all cars, from every single manufacturer (luxo-barge to econobox, German, Japanese, American etc.), had the same rust problems back then. It was the heyday of undercoating, wax-oyl and other ineffective "penetrating" treatments to forestall rust worms. And if you're not mentioning every British car maker of the same period in your criticisms of both quality and rust, you're being disingenuous.
 
and by the way, THANK YOU for not perpetuating that ugly, idiotic, fake Apple Car concept that Motor Trend supposedly hired "experts" to speculate as a design. I've seen other Apple sites (e.g. Cult of Mac) using it as a photo to accompany posts about the actual Apple Car. Motor Trend should not be rewarded for that level of douchebaggery.
 
I'm so jealous that Europeans get their satellite radio, automatic transmission, powered lift gates, and heated seats for free!

Wait.. I just checked a the French website of Audi, and it turns out, options AREN'T free. It's not the paradise you are trying to sell.

Did you pick the bottom of the range models? And what models did you select? Anyone can cherry pick something they want to try and back up their argument. Things like winter packs (heated seats, windscreen, mirrors etc etc) come as standard on a lot of middle-range vehicles by car makers that I mentioned.
[doublepost=1461007372][/doublepost]
Truish...but all cars, from every single manufacturer (luxo-barge to econobox, German, Japanese, American etc.), had the same rust problems back then. It was the heyday of undercoating, wax-oyl and other ineffective "penetrating" treatments to forestall rust worms. And if you're not mentioning every British car maker of the same period in your criticisms of both quality and rust, you're being disingenuous.

I didn't mention the British car industry for a very good reason - it's an abomination and colossal embarrassment.
 
What a sick way to look at things, the people working the assembly line ARE NOT disposable. They should be paid a lot more and be given better conditions than they get at the moment. Those Apple offshore factory workers are being exploited by the people at the Cupertino offices.

From what I understand, they are already paid a lot more than the typical China worker. Do you understand the concept of prevailing wage and cost of living? And do you understand the concept of contract work and how the client (Apple) isn't in charge of what the employer (Foxconn) decides to pay their workers? Apple can influence them, but they aren't the boss of them.
[doublepost=1461008544][/doublepost]
The financial case is that the Apple offshore workers are severely underpaid.
There really is no debate, there is solid information on this.
The cost of living in the USA is about 1.5 x - 2.5 higher than in China. But, when looking at wages of factory workers in the USA, factory workers in the USA are compensated about 12 x higher than in China.
There is a severe imbalance in the compensation, work hours and conditions at Apple's offshore workers.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/newscast/525
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/103
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/109
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/upfile/2015_02_11/Analyzing Labor Conditions of Pegatron and Foxconn_vF.pdf
https://www.techinasia.com/report-apple-shifted-production-pegatron-save-money-workers-exploited
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-pegatron-labour-idUSKBN0LG0P820150212
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463

You put a lot of stock in what China Labor Watch says:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...-shouts-nonsense-at-apple-again/#5b24a27a31cd
 
From what I understand, they are already paid a lot more than the typical China worker. Do you understand the concept of prevailing wage and cost of living? And do you understand the concept of contract work and how the client (Apple) isn't in charge of what the employer (Foxconn) decides to pay their workers? Apple can influence them, but they aren't the boss of them.
[doublepost=1461008544][/doublepost]

You put a lot of stock in what China Labor Watch says:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...-shouts-nonsense-at-apple-again/#5b24a27a31cd
Nice try. Considering that Apple negotiates contracts its implausible to suggest that Foxconn and others really set the wages freely and fairly. Apple is completely complicit in exploiting its workers at offshore factories. Do you understand the concept of exploitation, do you understand the concept of wages that are completely miss matched with costs of living? China Labor Watch is doing a tremendously great job of shining a very bright light on corporate misdeeds such that Apple's extended workers endure. Take for instance huge amounts of overtime worked by Apple's offshore workforce. China Labor Watches investigations go so far to publish more than 1000 original pay stubs showing excessive over time worked by workers assembling Apple devices. No nonsense there. We certainly do not get that level of in-depth information in the reports Apple presents on its shiny website. Apple could be the champion here in the industry. But it isn't. Apple has a shiny outer but it is totally rotten to the core. What a disgrace. http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/newscast/524
 
Last edited:
Did you pick the bottom of the range models? And what models did you select? Anyone can cherry pick something they want to try and back up their argument. Things like winter packs (heated seats, windscreen, mirrors etc etc) come as standard on a lot of middle-range vehicles by car makers that I mentioned.
The one I looked at started at 30,000 Euros, but the price changed by as much as 8,000 when I started adding option packages. I'm not sure if you consider 30K to be bottom of range, but it's pretty close to a Tesla Model 3 starting price, and I expect Apple to aim for that range if they do direct sales to consumers.

We don't know what Apple actually has planned, so you may be right and it will be exactly your nightmarish scenario. Or you could be completely wrong, and Apple will sell the car in the vastly superior European (obviously excluding Audi, which didn't seem superior) way, and every one will get heated seats for free!
 
Hmm. Didn't know that walking was going to be part of the AI driver experience. Good to know.
Walking is like a simplified version of slow driving with the only moving object being yourself. Usually if you're unable to walk and can't open a door without falling on your face, you shouldn't steer a car either.


You're drunk, gimme your keys!​
 
You know what's relevant in the environment? Everything - dust, smoke, fog, rain, snow, ice, sand, leaves. In England it's even raining cats and dogs. To differentiate you need a concept of the whole world. We don't even let humans drive until they are of age. Eighteen years of preparation. What stops a self-driving car from driving right into a tornado? Nothing. It will never know what's what.

A self-driving car is not a Sleeping Berth or a Transport for the Unconscious.

Besides that, automated tornado warnings are already in existence here in the States, so communicating that information to a computer-controlled vehicle, which can then change routes based on the information and notify the car's human occupants of the event, can be finished by next week.
 
The last thing I need is a car that cripples itself with a permanent CarOS update that's automatically applied OTA.
 
Nice try. Considering that Apple negotiates contracts its implausible to suggest that Foxconn and others really set the wages freely and fairly. Apple is completely complicit in exploiting its workers at offshore factories. Do you understand the concept of exploitation, do you understand the concept of wages that are completely miss matched with costs of living? China Labor Watch is doing a tremendously great job of shining a very bright light on corporate misdeeds such that Apple's extended workers endure. Take for instance huge amounts of overtime worked by Apple's offshore workforce. China Labor Watches investigations go so far to publish more than 1000 original pay stubs showing excessive over time worked by workers assembling Apple devices. No nonsense there. We certainly do not get that level of in-depth information in the reports Apple presents on its shiny website. Apple could be the champion here in the industry. But it isn't. Apple has a shiny outer but it is totally rotten to the core. What a disgrace. http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/newscast/524

I know a lot of people who LOVE working overtime for more pay. Are you sure the workers are against working overtime? I could see not wanting to be forced to do overtime without pay but there are a ton of people who volunteer for overtime work in my world. In my business, a 10-hr day is standard and a 16hr day, a few hrs sleep and then another 10 hr day now and then isn't that uncommon.
 
Walking is like a simplified version of slow driving with the only moving object being yourself. Usually if you're unable to walk and can't open a door without falling on your face, you shouldn't steer a car either.

Your comparison is irrelevant. Besides that, a google search will show you that there are many walking robots working right now, including the January, 2015 revised version of the DARPA robot you posted the video of. Multi-wheeled and multi-legged robots/devices perform complex tasks all the time. It matters not that they can't also prop themselves up on one wheel/foot, unless you want them to know how to piss on your shoe.
 
Probably a hookup with BMW, which quite clearly wants to do something completely different in terms of business mode with its "BMW i" products, but also clearly struggling to figure out how to do that without infanticide from its established business....
 
Your comparison is irrelevant. Besides that, a google search will show you that there are many walking robots working right now, including the January, 2015 revised version of the DARPA robot you posted the video of. Multi-wheeled and multi-legged robots/devices perform complex tasks all the time.
And they fail all the time on the first try, when you let them solve an unforeseen situation all by themselves. Artificial Intelligence can not exist. It's an impossibility, because intelligence requires self awareness and an understanding of the world around you. Just ask Bomb 20.
 
Everyone would agree that pure AI isn't ready for full time use. But I bet it will be in 10 years--and that's almost no time at all.

And car manufacturing doesn't require "magic dust" and 100 years of history to make cars. Proven components are available from the same sources as ALL the others use--Aisin, ZF, Bosch, Magna, Johnson, Delphi, BASF, Dana, Hitachi--and hundreds of others. Assembly and JIT inventory control are not mysteries either, nor is the software for robotic assembly. Even Ford, Chevy and Renault sell engines to other manufacturers.

Do you really think there is some mystical institutional knowledge in "Old Steel" that is indecipherable to outsiders? Seeing as how the entire workforce at a car company is replaced every 15-20 years on average, apparently the new hires from management and engineering on down are able to get up to speed without much difficulty.
You seem to have quoted the wrong post.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.