Apple Requesting Potential Motorola Bond of Up to $16 Billion in German Patent Case

[zacman]

Mueller forgot to mention an important detail:

Motoriola doesn't have to pay in cash. They can also just hand over a simple bank guarantee. That is what's enough by German law. It happens all the time. Motorola won't have to pay 16 billion in cash. So that isn't a big problem.

 

[Discoverer]

I hope Apple rips out Motorola's heart

 

[simpleankit]

Mueller forgot to mention an important detail:

Motoriola doesn't have to pay in cash. They can also just hand over a simple bank guarantee. That is what's enough by German law. It happens all the time. Motorola won't have to pay 16 billion in cash. So that isn't a big problem.

First Judge definitely will not take Apple's claims on face value and will reduce the amount , say to a 1.5 billion dollar per year ( from 2.7 claimed)

Secondly this would be an yearly amount , say for one year the Motorola will need to furnish bond for 1.5 billion dollar, if case stretches beyond that then it will be 3 billion dollar for next year and so on.

So what is the amount that Motorola needs to pay to make a bond of 1.5 billion dollars as of now. Around 1% of the value, since it would be in the form of bank guarantee.

1% of 1.5 billion dollar is 15 million dollar.

Not a big deal.

 

[vvswarup]

Well I guess we will see now what the EU Competition Commission does, if it has time to do anything with the Euro going down the toilet! But they have requested information on the patents in question. It's targeting Samsung and Apple mind. So other companies may not need to take on Apple. And 16 billion is still a lot of money, only the very biggest companies have that cash even in assets.
I would like to see Apple and Samsung get fined 10%, but it won't change the broken patent system.

What have Apple and Samsung done to deserve a 10% fine?

----------

Dick move, Apple.

It would be nice if you could back it up with some logical argument. But then again, that may be asking too much.

 

[dr Dunkel]

If you think about it, it is the game one should hate, not the player. Apple is using its size to scare off those who seek justice when their IP has been stolen. In this case, who knows if Motorola can afford justice? The process could go on forever, rebdering the IP infringed useless when the time come for a final judgement. Therefore, the fast route needs to be taken. Imagine if it was my personal patent that Apple infringed. I could never afford justice.

There's a flaw in the system. Apple is using it. I would too.

 

[jacobj]

That is just beyond pathetic of apple.

I can see the fanboys are downrating this even though they know it's true.

I have no real opinion on these issues given my complete lack of knowledge regarding patent law. I have no insight that would allow me to even form a common sense view of how it should work, especially given that I have no idea of the challenges that were faced by the lawmakers.

What I am interested in though is wether you own any Apple products or whether you are here to find news of potential future products.

I assume that you are not here to simply put the world to rights. If you are then you would obviously be a highly informed individual as your efforts would otherwise be a little sad and pathetic. Can I therefore ask you to help us all and summarise the key issues in patent law that make apple "pathetic". Perhaps a few references to the key passages in the law and a general summary of why Apple is wrong and other parties are not. I don't know if Apple is right or wrong and I look forward to learning. Thank you for your time and commitment to our betterment.

 

[Oletros]

Strategically take down Android and all the crap hardware that goes with it!!!

Ah, asking for a bond will take down Android.

Mueller forgot to mention an important detail:

Mueller didn't forgot that. If he didn't say that is because it would be less scary for Motorola and the FUD he spreads.


And, by the way, he has been wrong another time. No injunction for Samsung in USA. Today he is sad

 

[Oletros]

Dup

 

[the8thark]

This is actually smart lawyering. It will give Mot pause for concern. It's basically saying "are you willing to bet your entire company on this? because if not back down"

it quickly went from small risk big gain to huge risk big gain. If anything this is apple admiting they have a poor case and hoping to win by backdown from motorola going over their risk assessments.

This is exactly what I do not like. Court cases should be won on who is right and who is wrong. Not bow biased the law system is. Not making the case worth no much that is you get a judge who does not like you, then there goes your company.

As much as I like Apple both sides should have equal and fair opportunity to fight for a fair outcome. But we all know the legal system is not fair. But it's the best we have I guess. And we all can take steps to make it better. But Apple saying either you win or you go out of business is past a joke. How do the little man fight a big company who wrongs you. I'm not saying Motorola (ie google) is small or that Apple is wrong. I'm just making a general statement.

These kind of deals set a terrible precedent. Something I do not like at all.

 

[gnasher729]

Mueller forgot to mention an important detail:

Motoriola doesn't have to pay in cash. They can also just hand over a simple bank guarantee. That is what's enough by German law. It happens all the time. Motorola won't have to pay 16 billion in cash. So that isn't a big problem.

1. Motorola won't be able to get a $16bn bank guarantee obviously.

2. Motorola doesn't have to pay anything. The idea is that _if_ Motorola forces Apple to give up iCloud in Germany, _then_ Motorola has to be able to pay for any damages caused. Motorola can just quit demanding that Apple give up iCloud and wait until a final court decision.

As much as I like Apple both sides should have equal and fair opportunity to fight for a fair outcome. But we all know the legal system is not fair. But it's the best we have I guess. And we all can take steps to make it better. But Apple saying either you win or you go out of business is past a joke. How do the little man fight a big company who wrongs you. I'm not saying Motorola (ie google) is small or that Apple is wrong. I'm just making a general statement.

You really don't understand what is going on? Let's say you run a business. That's your livelyhood. I make a claim that your business is based on an invention that I made. That claim might be true or false, that's why it goes to court. But I demand that you stop your business right now until the court decision. So you lose all your income until some time in five years my claim is thrown out by a court because it was totally false. How would you like that? That's what Motorola is trying. They are trying to damage Apple's business _now_ when a court decision could take until 2008. In that situation, you'd want me to guarantee that I'll pay for your loss of income for five years if I took you to court on a false claim. Or that I let you continue running your business until the court decides, so that no damage is done if I lose. And that is exactly what Apple is asking for.

So Motorola ONLY pay an obscene amount of money if they loose their case? I'm guessing?

Not quite like that. _If_ Motorola gets an injunction against Apple and then loses the case, then they have to pay for the damage caused by the injunction. If the amount of damages is obscene, then the amount of payment will be obscene as well. (Same in Apple vs. Samsung, if Apple gets an injunction and then loses the case, they have to pay for damages). _If_ the court refuses the injunction, or if Motorola gives up on the injunction, then there would be no damage done by the injunction, so obviously Motorola wouldn't have to pay any damages if they lose. Now Samsung looked at Apple's $80bn in cash and obviously said "we don't need any bond, Apple has enough money to pay any amount of damages". Apple is afraid that Motorola cannot pay. That's why they ask for this bond.

 

[HelveticaRoman]

The EU will start to look at the break-up of Apple's increasingly claustrophobic ecosystem within the next few years.

 

[rmwebs]

You completely missed the point. Look at the first post of this thread and think again.

I looked at the first post and agree with it. The votes system is used to silently say 'I disagree with you' or 'I agree with you'. If you cant handle your posts being down voted by 15 people who dont share your opinion, you shouldn't be here.

Thats not to say that I dont think the vote system is idiotic in the first place, because it is. It serves no real purpose other than to piss people off, and the MacRumors staff know that but choose not to do anything about it.

 

[apolloa]

What have Apple and Samsung done to deserve a 10% fine?

The EU Competition Commission are investigating if the 20 cases in 10 countries between the two companies is stifling growth in the mobile industry and markets. They have fired a warning shot across Apple's bow, and are taking a vested interest in proceedings. But what they'll do we have to wait and see.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/22/oukin-uk-apple-samsung-eu-idUKTRE7AL15920111122c

They are actually fully aware of how companies abuse patents and reading the report it sounds like they may make an example of Apple and Samsung to the rest of them. We can only hope they do because it's the consumer that looses out.

Not quite like that. _If_ Motorola gets an injunction against Apple and then loses the case, then they have to pay for the damage caused by the injunction. If the amount of damages is obscene, then the amount of payment will be obscene as well. (Same in Apple vs. Samsung, if Apple gets an injunction and then loses the case, they have to pay for damages). _If_ the court refuses the injunction, or if Motorola gives up on the injunction, then there would be no damage done by the injunction, so obviously Motorola wouldn't have to pay any damages if they lose. Now Samsung looked at Apple's $80bn in cash and obviously said "we don't need any bond, Apple has enough money to pay any amount of damages". Apple is afraid that Motorola cannot pay. That's why they ask for this bond.

I suppose that's fair enough. Should Apple loose though then they are 16 billion out of pocket I guess. And vice versa. I still think this whole patent system is broken. It's not the inviting something and protecting it, it's the buying in bulk and using it to reduce competition.

 

[gkpm]

US Judge has also denied Apple's request for Injunction

Another win for Samsung after Australia one

See the court document in below link

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/812623/apple-denied-prelim-injunction.pdf

Thanks. Found this statement incredibly funny:

"Samsung argues that they [Apple] are not direct competitors because Samsung customers are unlikely to switch from a Samsung product to an Apple product. Samsung offers evidence that its products cater to a different part of the smartphone market than the Apple iPhone because the products have different operating systems." (page 31)

Seems even Samsung thinks of their users as massive fanbois

 

[Dr McKay]

Apple is not a convicted monopoly abuser.

Apple has to actually reach *this* level:

Presenting evidence that had been tampered with during a court-case? That sounds familiar.

Apple may not be convicted, but they have a monopoly on tablets and are choking the life out of rivals.

And Microsoft saying they were going to "choke the life" out of Netscape seems rather on par with Steve saying he was going to go "Thermonuclear" on Android.

Lose the iBeerGoggles LTD.

 

[dethmaShine]

Presenting evidence that had been tampered with during a court-case? That sounds familiar.

When? Are you referring to the case against Samsung? It's been beaten down to death that Apple provided with complete technical specifications on the same page as the picture. But never mind.

Apple may not be convicted, but they have a monopoly on tablets and are choking the life out of rivals.

Monopoly on tablets? How?

Controlling the supply? Sure. I would really request HP or even ASUS to buy billions of dollars of manufacturing or supplies to help their tablet sales; but oops, they cannot. Otherwise they would have. Apple has consistently proven the fact that they cannot meet the demand for both iPads and iPhones and they exclusively need the kind of supply they have; they have in the recent times invested in a lot of hardware components; I wonder how much HP, ASUS and others have done anything like that. Maybe you should understand the difference b/w a business and a monopoly.

 

[adder7712]

Go Apple go!

Strategically take down Android and all the crap hardware that goes with it!!!

Can't wait for the day.

This is fanboyism at an extreme level.

Seriously, it's a snowball's chance in Hell that would happen. Crap hardware? Then why a lot of Android phones have better hardware than the iPhone?

 

[dethmaShine]

This is fanboyism at an extreme level.

Seriously, it's a snowball's chance in Hell that would happen. Crap hardware? Then why a lot of Android phones have better hardware than the iPhone?

Surely its not crap; but what?

 

[apolloa]

Thanks. Found this statement incredibly funny:

"Samsung argues that they [Apple] are not direct competitors because Samsung customers are unlikely to switch from a Samsung product to an Apple product. Samsung offers evidence that its products cater to a different part of the smartphone market than the Apple iPhone because the products have different operating systems." (page 31)

Seems even Samsung thinks of their users as massive fanbois

Things have turned the heat up in the mother land though:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/03/us-apple-samsung-ruling-idUSTRE7B206D20111203

American court judge denies Apples preliminary request for Galaxy sales to be halted in America. Of course it is still on going......

 

[wol]

I'd bet the lawyers started off with demanding $1 million, but then....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY

 

[435713]

I'd bet the lawyers started off with demanding $1 million, but then....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY

LOL 100 Billion ....Bagillion dollars!!!

 

[sazivad]

Uhm, have you ever seen the appstore? Apple prevents other companies from adding their own apps.

*snip*

BTW, you can't remove any of the standard apps on an iPhone or on the iPad, and I guess its the same with the macs.

I don't understand. "Other companies can't add their own apps?" Are Chillingo, Rovio, AT&T, Starbucks, Disney, Facebook, Twitter, and probably lots of others companies? (Legitimate question.)

I have to agree about the stock apps on iOS devices, but at least on the Mac you can leave the ones you don't want in the Applications folder and never use them (which you can kind of also do on an iOS device).

 

[apolloa]

I don't understand. "Other companies can't add their own apps?" Are Chillingo, Rovio, AT&T, Starbucks, Disney, Facebook, Twitter, and probably lots of others companies? (Legitimate question.)

I have to agree about the stock apps on iOS devices, but at least on the Mac you can leave the ones you don't want in the Applications folder and never use them (which you can kind of also do on an iOS device).

Not with the Magazine rack app, you have to use a little hack to move it into a folder let alone remove it! Very annoying.

 

[Bubba Satori]

I hope Apple rips out Motorola's heart

Aztec priest demands blood sacrifice.
Think different. Harvest their organs.
Apple, making the world a better place, one mindless, scary cultist at a time.

 

[wordsmith27]

one of these days some company apple is trying to fck with in these stupid lawsuits is gonna win and screw apple's whole reality up and destroy that distortion field.

apple is literally suing for everything they can imagine...shapes, colors, designs all things they did not invent and i'd argue making stuff pretty looking or sleek is not innovation... the iphone 5 is reportedly tear drop shaped, the galaxy nexus is teardrop shaped but it's pretty much assured apple will claim great new invention of tear drop shaped devices...and probably try to sue..

i love my mac and ipad but enough is enough and apple needs to be humbled by losing one big case or several cases. competition through litigation is something a coward does to stifle a potential rival out of fear. If apple truly believes they are the best then freaking compete in the market and let users decide.

16bil for icloud? icloud isn't even solid right now and has kinks they rn't making anything close to 2.7 bil a year right now and may never do so.

pathetic move by apple.