No i'm suggesting it's not good enough to drive them or hear any difference. But by "quality" you probably mean about £60.
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Apple Said to Be Removing Headphone Jack From Upcoming 2018 iPad Pro Models
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No i'm suggesting it's not good enough to drive them or hear any difference. But by "quality" you probably mean about £60.
No, I mean north of £250!!
Why the comment about £60?
Edit : But that £250 doesn't include any pair of wired Beats headphones with their boomy, unrealistic bass I've tried. £40 Senheisser PX100 are more natural
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A modern designed pair of headphones with low impedance like the Shure 1540 play very well with the iOS devices. Why wouldn’t I want to use it with my iPad? Buy another pair of cheaper headphones in addition just for the iPad? How dumb is that?
But with the premium prices we pay for an iPad Pro, wouldn’t it be nice if Apple would actually include a better DAC anyway?
Instead they probably remove even more components and charge more. Yaaayyyy!
Exactly.
I agree with the second part.
But really £250 headphones deserve something better than the built in iOS device DAC. That's why I don't think it's a big issue - I use my Dragonfly or Soundkey anyway.
Apple could always put a second Face ID sensor in the bezel in landscape mode if they couldn’t get it to work both ways.
According to your logic, any stretch change is acceptable. That’s not how it works, especially after low hanging fruit like floppy and optical drives were removed. At some point you run out of things to remove smartly. We’re there, imho.
Why don't you grab your iPad Pro, launch GarageBand, hit 'New Document', then tap any instrument.
Read that message.
Now, dismiss it and try your luck anyway. Go ahead, hit a few keys, tap a couple of drums.
That's just awesome, it's it? Magical even? Pretty soon, that could be everyone's experience. Yay! It's like a dream come true, amirite?
Bluetooth has dramatically higher latency and lower bandwidth than a headphone jack. Granted, you may just be a consumer, but remember, this is the Pro offering. The people that make the content that you consume with your iPad, rely on the headphone jack. Bluetooth is far, far less capable than a headphone jack. You're not going forward by removing the jack, you're actually left with an inferior interface. And you'll be "disappointed" if you still have a superior choice?
Ok. I guess.
If wireless ever got to the point where the latency and bandwidth rivaled the connector, I'd be right there with you.
This is not the case, though.
Some people cheered the loss of the Concorde, and some people will cheer the loss of the headphone jack. It matters not that the jack is essential to multi-media creation, that's for the people that do something to worry about.
We're actually going backward in some respects, but the people have already been prepared for it, so I guess there's little resistence left.
Pro devices used to be aimed at the top 10%, now they're aiming for the same consumer class as everything else. The people who used to pay top dollar to get the best are finding fewer and fewer options as time goes on, and they're more and more often stuck with what Joe and Jane occasional-using moviewatcher are delighted with.
Eh, it'll be okay, though. I mean, it's not like Idiocracy was a documentary. It was a movie. A silly movie. Pure fiction from beginning to end.
Yeah, I'm sure it'll be fine.
How about a £600+ device labeled PRO deserves a better DAC?
Well I did mention that Garageband latency message in two of my earlier posts here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-ipad-pro-models.2129845/page-4#post-26295581
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ipad-pro-models.2129845/page-15#post-26296482
I think bluetooth is already at the point of rivaling cable connections as evident by aptX low latency (~40ms) and aptX HD (high quality, but still not lossless). The problem is that most wireless products do not use aptX because most people don't care and the people that do care will just go for wired headphones because they exists and the wireless market isn't there yet. Bluetooth 5 has even doubled the bandwidth and decreased latency but we still have not seen any headphones that utilize it which shows how little everyday people care about latency and sound quality.
So I agree with what you said but I still want Apple to push the wireless product category forward as I explained in the second post that I linked above.
The problem is Apple hasn't done anything to address low latency with their audio products and third party devices. Apple relies on internal synch between their devices to keep wireless synch, but that model falls down when it comes to real time audio, and yet they've done nothing there either despite promoting products like Garage Band.
To me its irresponsible to release a product that doesn't address the needs of a major group of customers, even if they are in the minority.
For myself, and many others, the iPad is a dream platform for music making, as the iOS synths and workstation apps are freaking amazing, and no, I will not be interested in having to use wireless for anything having to do with my live sound.
Which means I'm stuck at the current gen, which is fine.
For now.
But I hope they don't underestimate the popularity of the iPad for musicians, as the app store sales should attest, this is a major platform for people that cannot afford to spend 4k on a workstation keyboard, or a brand new MiniMoog, when it can be had for around 800, plus 20 or so for the app.
If they are really calling it a "pro" machine, it should have headphone jack for musicians.
If it has USB C there's no need for the headphone jack for musicians. Even the most basic C port can handle plenty of audio i/o - not sure why you think you'd need wireless when that port is there. Plus, it will open up even more hardware where the manufacturer wouldn't have bothered making a Lightning version.
It'd be a mild inconvenience for people who just want to listen with headphones, yes. But a big step forward as a whole for musicians, who are likely to have some kind of fancy audio dongle in the first place.
With usb-C there would be plenty of "pro" audio output ports, all superior to the headphone jack on any previous iPad, that a musician can choose from.
A valid argument that I can see making a ton of sense in Apple's design laboratories and marketing meetings.
But in practice, by "real" users out in the "real world," sometimes some things can go a hair farther than they need to, where now pain/inconvenience that snuck up on you becomes obviously annoying. Like the frog in the heating water. As an amateur very-semi-pro musician myself who's composed, sold recordings, and still play live as a paying hobby, I find countless times where I move around with ipad and instrument in hand, ready to interface with the "universal" world, where that universal world consists of countless opportunities to interface with non-wifi'd systems having 1/8" cables owned by myself or others, as well as spare lightning cables at those locations for charging while feeding out music. Planning ahead with a few dongles in pocket is as inconvenient and unncessary as would be needing to keep track of a stylus to work the ipad fully.
To me and many musicians and non-musicians, the headphone jack is as universal and necessary a tool as is the screen itself and volume buttons. Bury the ultra-convenient screen-rotate-lock button in software? Ok. Remove the clickable home button to taptic? OK I'll deal. Start requiring more than a quick press to get the home button feature working, or minimize away the headphone jack only to cause new inconveniences as a result? That's Apple starting to lose the script as far as providing hardware so the user can run quickly and shine.
Sad and distracting that things like this aren't realized by the smart designers at the formely Apple Computer Co. that seems more to be the Apple Fashionable Hardware and Forced Trendmaker Co.
Are you referring to plugging it into something else?
Because the guy I was quoting seemed to say the iPad itself is an affordable music machine. Once you start having to plug it into other machines, it loses it's affordability and simplicity.
In other words, the question is not whether it can satisfy a musician's needs, but whether it can natively satisfy those needs without having to spend money on other devices to plug it into.
Does that make sense?
Needing a headphone jack is different than listening through headphones. I have no issue using my headphones on an iPhone 7.
And as a musician don’t you have a ton of stuff including cables? Just add a dongle to your collection.
Obviously not being in my/our shoes, you/Apple can keep suggesting workarounds. But why aren't the suggestions accepted in the other direction, from the actual users? Sure, anyone can keep buying and adding items. Which cost money and which need to be kept track of, both before, during, and after the gig. Isn't it nice when something can be compact and not require another "thing" to be kept track of, that integrates into 99% of the rest of a 50-year-old established hierarchy of music amplification and hardware?
Oh, and the flexibility of charging and listening/transmitting via independent ports is possible, otherwise which requires another dongle to do both simultaneously in the courageous new world. Battery life is an issue when using your iPad for six hours at the gig.
As with everything in life, there's always a point of diminishing returns. iPod vs. prior mp3 players was a quantum leap in greatness. Fiddling over which port or jack to remove next in the name of "this is better for you" is reaching the diminishing returns area. If one doesn't get it, there's no convincing.
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Sometimes in life a steak just won't do when what might really make you happiest at that moment is a really good hamburger. The world/users don't need a steak for each and every meal....don't need pushed to the trendiest of advanced limits with their iPad or iPhone... “Superior” is more than providing the best sounding function. Apple product planning has completely misplaced what “superior experience” means. It’s not always the most thin most clear most cleanest-looking most simplest. Apple is trending towards jumping the shark of being once a designer of products truly great to work with imho.
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(Emphasis added.)
Exactly correct.
Although I would say Apple jumped the shark starting with the 2013 MP, and has gone downhill with each of its subsequent Mac hardware redesigns.
What’s done is already done. I have not been able to get a cogent answer, dongle aside, of what the issue is with the removal of the headphone jack.
But it really doesn’t matter because what is done is done.
You haven’t been able to comprehend the issue by others’ viewpoints in posts in this and other threads? Really?
Dongles, dongles, dongles...
Apple sell those dongles,
Apple sell those dongles....oh myyyyy!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just buy a friggin' don-gle,
And keep that friggin' dongle by your siiiiide...
F you Timothy Crook.
Apple sell those dongles,
Apple sell those dongles....oh myyyyy!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just buy a friggin' don-gle,
And keep that friggin' dongle by your siiiiide...
F you Timothy Crook.
Please allow me to answer. Two things.
1) The "dongle" is a sound device. It's *in* the end of the cable. This means that you're requiring sound to be run through that. You wouldn't notice from casual listening, but it is subject to delay. When *creating* music, this is a non-starter.
2) The output of the dongle is limited to 16bit/44.1k. It's a miraculous device, and I am amazed at what it does, but that removes 24bit/96k audio from the equation. Again, if you're casually listening, no big deal. Creating, and this is a big, big deal.
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The advancement of wireless does not require the removal of a headphone jack.
40ms is a significant delay, and would be very noticeable if you were interacting with music. That needs to be down to 4ms to become seamless, and there are some literal physics limitations in this.