Apple Said to Be Stopping Use of TLC NAND Flash in iPhone 6 and 6 Plus After Reported Issues

[nburwell]

I've had my 64gb 6 for a week now with no crashing issues.

 

[thadoggfather]

I've had 7 different model iPhones over the years and have never returned one because of the screen: I've had 2 returns over that time - a 3GS for a cracked back shell and a 4S that was DOA but apart from that I've had no issues at all.

Either I'm very lucky or (more likely) not as sensitive to issues as some people are

I'm truly jealous

 

[kemal]

Do you seriously believe that Apple will simply replace your phone with another phone that is going to have the same issue?
If (that's a big if), Apple determines that the crash and boot loop issue is caused by the TLC NAND and IF your phones is one of the affected devices, Apple is going to replace it with one of the newer phones using MLC NAND. Otherwise, what is the point?

Apple have a long history of replacing defective parts with defective parts. The power supplies in G5 iMacs and MacBook Pro video issues come to mind.

 

[WardC]

So for a potential future new iPhone 6/6+ buyer, how will one know they are getting a unit with the newer updated flash and not an older unit? Is there any way Apple will be specifying on the packaging or through sale that you are getting one of these newer units? Or will it all just be a crapshoot?

 

[J. Jizzle]

If I'm reading & understanding everything correctly, if Apple does away with the TLC then technically there will not be a 128 GB version of the 6 & 6 Plus, correct? And if that's the case do you think Apple will continue to market the iPhone as having a 128 GB option, or will they be required to change it?

 

[Rafterman]

So for a potential future new iPhone 6/6+ buyer, how will one know they are getting a unit with the newer updated flash and not an older unit? Is there any way Apple will be specifying on the packaging or through sale that you are getting one of these newer units? Or will it all just be a crapshoot?

You do know that this is a rumor from one tech site with a poor rumor track record, right?

If Apple announces it, then you can worry about things like that.

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If I'm reading & understanding everything correctly, if Apple does away with the TLC then technically there will not be a 128 GB version of the 6 & 6 Plus, correct? And if that's the case do you think Apple will continue to market the iPhone as having a 128 GB option, or will they be required to change it?

Or a 64GB iPhone 6. TLC is physically smaller than MLC for the same amount of storage. Considering how tightly packed the iPhone 6 is to achieve its thinness, they can't just pull out those chips and replace them with MLC, without redesigning the iPhone 6 innards. Not to mention that TLC and MLC have different voltage requirements and tolerances, requiring even more design changes. That's why I call BS on this. Maybe they'll design iPhone 7 to accommodate MLC again, but not the 6.

 

[boast]

Please forgive my ignorance but....
The article says TLC stores more data. Will a 128GB MLC phone somehow have less usable storage than a 128GB TLC phone? I'm talking from a practical user perspective re: how many apps/movies etc I can store.
Also Is MLC faster enough to notice in normal usage?
I haven't had boot loops on mine, but it does seem a little slow and laggy at times. I would definitely be interested in a replacement if it were "snappier"

This might be too technical, but I have designed a TLC NAND block and can share some light.

TLC stores less memory per area but is faster because you store just a single bit on a gate of a mosfet. So when your sense amp (maybe a delta-sigma modulator) is detecting what the bit is on the gate, it only has to wait until it passes a certain voltage at a certain time to know if it was charged or not (1 or 0).

With MLC, you have multiple voltages on that gate. So your sense amp needs to be more precise and also needs to poll for longer in order to figure out what the voltage is on that mosfet's gate (a "0, 1, 2, or 3").

So there is a trade-off of speed vs capacity. And since the consumers want more memory than speed, MLC is the better option (and newer technology). But they would both be the same memory amount as advertised.

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

My 64GB 6 Plus and my daughters 64GB 6 have been great. Originally I read it was only 128GB 6 & 6 Plus.

If I experience this issue I'll just go to Genius Bar and get replaced. I'm sure it's only a small percentage, or we would already have "Flashgate" threads screaming Apple is going down, Blau, Blau, Blau........

My 6+ 128GB obtained on day 1 has rebooted a few times (like 1-2x/week), and I thought it was a software thing.

As for Apple's response, I have good feelings on this. My 5 has a brand new battery, and if there is a recall, I'll be happy to go to the Genius Bar and get a new 6+.

 

[samcraig]

I wasn't being an apologist with my statement. When I have problems I go in and exchange it. If I don't then I keep my phone. It's that simple. Really. I don't have to go through the same rigmarole when getting my device replaced with other devices because I have to buy any other companies device through a third party. That in and of itself makes returns much more of a hassle.

All I wanted was for Apple to address this legitimate issue and they are. I've already stated that it's a legitimate issue in multiple threads and that Apple needs to address it. I guess that makes me dangerously close to being apologetic.

People get what they want and they are still complaining. I don't understand the logic.

Difference of opinion in how you came across.

You still didn't answer my question though. What company/product are you talking about that wouldn't have the same outcome as what Apple is doing?

 

[LucasLand]

scott forstall

mean while, scott forstall is shaking his head while thinking to himself, "and I got fired for a maps issue?!"

 

[nutjob]

Testament to how sloppy things have gotten under Cook. First the sapphire fisco, now this.

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mean while, scott forstall is shaking his head while thinking to himself, "and I got fired for a maps issue?!"

Someone had to "take responsibility", so they threw him under the bus.

 

[J. Jizzle]

Or a 64GB iPhone 6. TLC is physically smaller than MLC for the same amount of storage. Considering how tightly packed the iPhone 6 is to achieve its thinness, they can't just pull out those chips and replace them with MLC, without redesigning the iPhone 6 innards. Not to mention that TLC and MLC have different voltage requirements and tolerances, requiring even more design changes. That's why I call BS on this. Maybe they'll design iPhone 7 to accommodate MLC again, but not the 6.

Good point.

 

[LucasLand]

Testament to how sloppy things have gotten under Cook. First the sapphire fisco, now this.

when the apple watch becomes a dud, then maybe people will start to think about a new CEO

 

[nutjob]

I wasn't being an apologist with my statement. When I have problems I go in and exchange it. If I don't then I keep my phone. It's that simple. Really. I don't have to go through the same rigmarole when getting my device replaced with other devices because I have to buy any other companies device through a third party. That in and of itself makes returns much more of a hassle.

All I wanted was for Apple to address this legitimate issue and they are. I've already stated that it's a legitimate issue in multiple threads and that Apple needs to address it. I guess that makes me dangerously close to being apologetic.

People get what they want and they are still complaining. I don't understand the logic.

So you're ok with paying a steep premium for phone that has parts as crappy as a Chinese knock-off? People would not be upset if they hadn't paid so much for a phone that has not been tested properly.

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when the apple watch becomes a dud, then maybe people will start to think about a new CEO

The Apple watch was arguably DOA. People gush about it, but no-one can say why you'd need one or what it does effectively. People will buy it out of pretension or fashion or whatever, but sales will fall off fairly quickly I imagine, once the novelty wears off.

 

[Deasnutz]

Manufacturing defect, but fixable with a quick software update. Ok.

Ever heard of "error correction"? There are ways to retry operations before writing/reading from storage.

 

[MikePLP]

The source is a korean newspaper....

Who knows if this is true or not. Let's keep in mind that Korean media is pretty much "owned" by Samsung.

 

[nouveau-apple]

You've already proven that you'll buy any Apple brand phone put out regardless of it's issues. So, what's the surprise here?

 

[too many Macs]

This might be too technical, but I have designed a TLC NAND block and can share some light.

TLC stores less memory per area but is faster because you store just a single bit on a gate of a mosfet. So when your sense amp (maybe a delta-sigma modulator) is detecting what the bit is on the gate, it only has to wait until it passes a certain voltage at a certain time to know if it was charged or not (1 or 0).

With MLC, you have multiple voltages on that gate. So your sense amp needs to be more precise and also needs to poll for longer in order to figure out what the voltage is on that mosfet's gate (a "0, 1, 2, or 3").

So there is a trade-off of speed vs capacity. And since the consumers want more memory than speed, MLC is the better option (and newer technology). But they would both be the same memory amount as advertised.

This is not correct. Here is a summary of the different NAND FLASH topologies:

SLC - 1 bit per cell (2 voltage levels, i.e. on/off)
MLC - 2 bits per cell (4 voltage levels)
TLC - 3 bits per cell (8 voltage levels)

 

[jaymc]

Got a 6+ 64gb and get crashes that show these:

Found these at Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics and Usage > Diagnostics & Usage Data.

Are these what everyone is talking about?

 

[torakaru]

This might be too technical, but I have designed a TLC NAND block and can share some light.
TLC stores less memory per area but is faster because you store just a single bit on a gate of a mosfet. So when your sense amp (maybe a delta-sigma modulator) is detecting what the bit is on the gate, it only has to wait until it passes a certain voltage at a certain time to know if it was charged or not (1 or 0).
With MLC, you have multiple voltages on that gate. So your sense amp needs to be more precise and also needs to poll for longer in order to figure out what the voltage is on that mosfet's gate (a "0, 1, 2, or 3").
So there is a trade-off of speed vs capacity. And since the consumers want more memory than speed, MLC is the better option (and newer technology). But they would both be the same memory amount as advertised.

Thanks by your technical explanation! I believe your words and I think they have sense (from my technical background) , but your comment is opposite from what all the medias says . They say:

- TCL is smaller die size, cheaper but slower than MCL or SCL
- MCL is bigger die size, so more expensive and faster than TCL

So, they said that TCL being smaller and cheaper, that was the reason of Apple to use them.

So, are all the technical media wrong from their articles, and they propagated a wrong rumor background data? (Could be, I dont know , what do you think?)

My really concern is if MCL controller type is really faster (or not) than TCL? do you know?; and, if there is any real HW issue with the current TCL NAND device used, do you think that could be 64GB/128GB MCL NAND devices footprint compatible in the market with the current 64GB/128GB TCL NAND devices used by iphone6/6+?

Thanks!

 

[Oracle1729]

'crap product,' eh?

seems to me like watching moore's law in effect would please even the youngest most demanding customers who've never experienced dumb/flip-phones. but no... that would imply reasonability and a modicum of patience and appreciation.

the free market means you're free to buy what you like.

Please don't mis-quote me, especially when you use quotation marks. I said crap quality products, and I stand by that. Sure it's a great product potentially, but they cut so many corners on the production quality it can only be described as crap quality.

 

[rGiskard]

If confirmed, I'll be taking my TLC 6+ in for a swap. This is rather outrageous of Apple IMO. Shooting themselves in the foot to save a buck, and they end up spending more in the long run.

Short-term profits are beginning to reign at Apple.

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This is not correct. Here is a summary of the different NAND FLASH topologies:

SLC - 1 bit per cell (2 voltage levels, i.e. on/off)
MLC - 2 bits per cell (4 voltage levels)
TLC - 3 bits per cell (8 voltage levels)

Maybe boast works for Anobit? Hehe.

 

[samcraig]

Who knows if this is true or not. Let's keep in mind that Korean media is pretty much "owned" by Samsung.

As mentioned before - as Samsung produces TLC NAND, they would have nothing to gain from badmouthing it.

Oh - and you can take your tin foil hat off now.

 

[rGiskard]

This might be too technical, but I have designed a TLC NAND block and can share some light.

TLC stores less memory per area but is faster because you store just a single bit on a gate of a mosfet. So when your sense amp (maybe a delta-sigma modulator) is detecting what the bit is on the gate, it only has to wait until it passes a certain voltage at a certain time to know if it was charged or not (1 or 0).

With MLC, you have multiple voltages on that gate. So your sense amp needs to be more precise and also needs to poll for longer in order to figure out what the voltage is on that mosfet's gate (a "0, 1, 2, or 3").

So there is a trade-off of speed vs capacity. And since the consumers want more memory than speed, MLC is the better option (and newer technology). But they would both be the same memory amount as advertised.

You're confused, dude. Please stop spreading misinformation.

For those interested, check out Anandtech's explanation of TLC NAND.

 

[RedBanana]

Why ? IOS 8.1.1 addresses the issue.

If it addresses the issue, why are they changing the NAND?

At a guess, it will be a firmware fix with extra testing in the write to flash. Taking the form of reading sectors back in and checking for errors after each write, then re-trying the write, then on another fail marking the block as bad. It'll work for most (only Apple will know how bad this is percentage wise). Anyone with a device that totally fails will wander into the Apple store where the Apple staff will see what model it is and instantly replace it with a nice smile.

I really really doubt there will be a recall...... that reaaaally is a last resort.

OK, so I answered my own question, it addresses the issue.

Funny enough, I have an iPhone 4 (the one that doesn't make calls if you hold it on the edge). I have a Mac Pro early 2011 that I have to reset the SMC+PRAM on for trackpad+keyboard issues and external monitor "flickering" issues too (GPU is fine in my model thank lordy), and knackered bluetooth. Issues like these aren't new and I live with. And not just Apple products, I have a Surface Pro 1 that the mini display port is now too loose to use on (I was using it on my TV, no longer). I can't think of much tech I own that hasn't had one issue or another.