Apple Says Record 2020 Mac Sales Attributed Primarily to MacBook Pro

[Atarikid]

Yes if was. I have dozen of costumers with no issue. Myself I prefer butterfly

Here at Traxat we have 175 employees and every single one had issues with the keys got stuck. It was a HUGE issue for Apple (and Apple admitted it too). Maybe the dozen customers did not use the MBP? I cannot imagine they did not encountered this issue when used.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Let's try to think objectively:

• There is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence that the issue was widespread. I personally had to replace the keyboard 3 times and know many that had to replace the keyboard too. Even the Service guy told me it was a relatively common problem. Anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything, but is still information worth of being considered.
• Apple did issue a repair program: the reason which makes more sense is that the keyboard needed repairs due to lack of reliability. Trying to "ease any worries of reliability" by launching a repair program would be completely backwards: in fact the announcement was interpreted as Apple tacitly admitting the keyboard was unreliable.
• Apple modified the design of the keyboard, claiming it was to make the keyboard more quiet but effectively preventing more dust from entering the keys, alleviating the issue. Teardowns did actually verify this. Apple ultimately ditched the design entirely and reverted to the previous one.

So, although only Apple knows the true scope of the issue, there are quite a few telltale signs that point at the issue being relatively widespread instead of merely overblown.

Your personal experience doesn't speak for the majority. Knowing "many" is arbitrary and doesn't explain much. I never had a problem with the keyboard and I know many that haven't experienced a single issue but that says nothing about what it actually is happening for most customers. Goes both ways.

Issuing a repair program is not a guarantee that there was a widespread issue. All MacBook models have had some defect with keyboards. It's entirely possible the dislike of the feel of the keys amplified any keyboard issues that would have normally have gone under the radar had the design not change at all.

Modifying the design of the keyboard is not proof of purely a mechanical issue. As Steve Jobs once said "People vote with their wallets". It's possible people simply didn't like the feel of the keys. Combine that with the amplified, overblown issues, it has scared a lot of customers away from even considering the MacBook.

Imagine if you were the CEO and you came up with this new keyboard. The Genius Bar data tells you there's just an average amount of people coming in with keyboard issues, yet MacBook sales are declining and your feedback inbox is overflowing with people disliking the keyboards. Obviously you would revert the keyboard design and provide a "repair program" stand by your keyboard design alleviate concerns of current customers. Objectively, this is a possibility that isn't too far fetched to consider.

 

[ilikewhey]

the new scissor switch was the reason i had my entire family and friends hold out from upgrading, in 2020 I adviced family and friends in getting 3x air, 2x 13inch mbp 2x 16inch mbp. at work we replaced all the 2018 mba with 2020 models.

 

[Freeangel1]

Yes. I picked up a MacBook Pro 16" I9 processor 16GB ram 1TB HD at micro center for only $1899
The last great Intel MacBook Pro before the big ARM Processor MAC mistake move.

 

[cardfan]

Yes. I picked up a MacBook Pro 16" I9 processor 16GB ram 1TB HD at micro center for only $1899
The last great Intel MacBook Pro before the big ARM Processor MAC mistake move.

Pretty much. Probably my last mac purchase before Apple silicon chases me away.

 

[bsolar]

Your personal experience doesn't speak for the majority. Knowing "many" is arbitrary and doesn't explain much. I never had a problem with the keyboard and I know many that haven't experienced a single issue but that says nothing about what it actually is happening for most customers. Goes both ways.

As I said, only Apple knows the actual data. This doesn't mean the many reports of reliability issues, although anecdotal, cannot be taken into account to try to gauge the situation.

Issuing a repair program is not a guarantee that there was a widespread issue. All MacBook models have had some defect with keyboards. It's entirely possible the dislike of the feel of the keys amplified any keyboard issues that would have normally have gone under the radar had the design not change at all.

Nobody claimed it is a "guarantee", but it is definitely a telltale sign.

Modifying the design of the keyboard is not proof of purely a mechanical issue. As Steve Jobs once said "People vote with their wallets". It's possible people simply didn't like the feel of the keys. Combine that with the amplified, overblown issues, it has scared a lot of customers away from even considering the MacBook.

Again, it's not "proof" but it's definitely yet another telltale sign.

The main issue with your reasoning is that you are trying to explain the issue with an explanation which is more far-fetched. This doesn't mean your explanation is impossible, but to summarize:

• There is significant anecdotal evidence reported that there are issue with the keyboard design.
• Teardowns confirmed that the keyboard design is indeed particularly susceptible to failure.
• Apple modifies the design, the new design being more protective of the keyboard from dust.
• Apple launches a repair program.

The simplest explanation is that the keyboard was especially unreliable. This explains all points above quite neatly.

Is your alternative explanation possible? Definitely, but it's definitely more convoluted, needing an explanation as of why there are so many reports of unreliability when the reliability is not an issue, or why the teardown shows susceptibility to failure wheares there is none, etc...

Evaluating the two explanations objectively, Occam's Razor points clearly at the "simplest" explanation being the more likely to be correct.

Imagine if you were the CEO and you came up with this new keyboard. The Genius Bar data tells you there's just an average amount of people coming in with keyboard issues, yet MacBook sales are declining and your feedback inbox is overflowing with people disliking the keyboards. Obviously you would revert the keyboard design and provide a "repair program" stand by your keyboard design alleviate concerns of current customers. Objectively, this is a possibility that isn't too far fetched to consider.

If you are a CEO and there are rumors that your product is unreliable, the last thing you would do is to issue a repair program, because it's bound to be interpreted in the obvious way: "if the product needs a repair program, it's unreliable. Confirmed!". It would be the dumbest PR move ever.

Apple is much more likely to have issued the repair program because... the keyboard needed a repair program.

 

[travelsheep]

This stone hard keyboard is a real burden. I frown upon it every time I need to type. Like right now for example. Typing is no fun at all. Plus the new MacBook Pro has an ESC key and finger print. Will buy it as soon as we can fly again.

 

[ksec]

the keyboard was fine. butterfly issues were overblown i think and unnecessarily scared potential customers away. interestingly the post above me proved my point. as Steve Jobs once said about the enterprise market: "the people that make those decisions sometimes are confused".

i have more of an issue with the touchbar IMO. if I tapped on the mission control button too hard where my finger slightly slid on the touch bar, touchbar cancels mission control. annoying.

A web apps development company with 100 developers and 100 MacBook Pro had 100+ keyboard failures is overblown?

Why is it so hard to accept the fact butterfly keyboard had a much higher failure rate?

People expect Keyboard to work 99.99% of the time. Even if it had a 1% failure ( which is way less than any data shown ) would be 99 times more than previous keyboard.

 

[glowplug]

1. they fixed the keyboard
2. they brought back the esc key
3. nobody wants to get stuck with 1st gen Apple silicon

yay sales!

 

[amartinez1660]

How was this issue overblown when Apple had a repair program set up to fix units with issues, repeatedly addressed it in year over year design adjustments, and then finally switched to a different one and stopped using it? You don’t need to defend Apple here, they have a team of lawyers for that. This problem was documented and addressed endlessly, it definitely wasn’t overblown.

Agreed, no need to defend Apple.

Would like to see that documentation you mention, would be finally great to know how many keyboards were sold, how many defective (and which keys mostly if there’s a bias towards some) and how many repaired. Would you have those numbers or link?

I will defend this though, I still think that trying to find progress (where none have dared anymore for years) if an opening is found is good... maybe that butterfly failure rate was a minor measurement issue, fixable and enhanceable in next revisions. Maybe it will come back full fledged and enhance the scissor ones once again.
Without this Apple Silicon wouldn’t happen (which might be butterfly keyboard all over again times 200) and we would be with Intel/AMD until the end.

 

[John075]

now, can you imagine what an insane amount of money they will make if they also get rid of the touchbar?

I actually really like the Touch Bar on my MacBook Pro 16" but I agree that the butterfly keyboard on previous generations of the 15" was crap when I used it, I had to go to the Apple Store multiple times to get the keyboard fixed after keys fell out / got stuck... If they hadn't released the 16" in time then I would've switched just because of the keyboard probably.

 

[ipponrg]

No.

If I was CEO and an overblown issue was causing a decline in sales, I'd launch a repair program to ease any worries of reliability issues for potential customers and eventually switch keyboards back. Any CEO would do the same.

If you were to think objectively, you'd might see other possibilities. 😉

If you were objective, you’d also not ignore that each year since 2016, they had added subtle “fixes” to the keyboard in attempts to alleviate concerns.

If you were objective, you’d realize that orgs have repair contracts with Apple for repairs. It’s well known that keyboard repair protocols are high on that list.

If you were objective, you’d realize that switching keyboards causes change in the supply chain. Change in the supply chain affects the bottom line.

If you were objective, any free repair program affects profits and optics. It’s a fallacy to think a free repair program will always keep your customers happy. Most loathe being without their laptop for more than a day let alone dealing with the process

If you were CEO, you’d fail for thinking shallow. Good thing you’re not CEO ☝️

 

[ipponrg]

Would like to see that documentation you mention, would be finally great to know how many keyboards were sold, how many defective (and which keys mostly if there’s a bias towards some) and how many repaired. Would you have those numbers or link?

Not everything is public. But if you work in a reasonably sized company that deals with MacBooks, simply talk to the IT guys. It’s a small sample size compared to the rest, but it’s a great way to find inference points. My company services 1000s of software engineers, and they have said it’s a common problem. Many try to tolerate the double tap until they can’t

 

[ignatius345]

I can Google some failures. https://apple.stackexchange.com/que...d-keys-q-w-e-r-t-y-u-i-o-working-sporadically

I'm typing on my 2018 MacBook Pro fine and never had an issue. That doesn't mean it's working perfectly for everyone. My personal experience and your personal experience doesn't represent everyone's experiences.

Only hard data we have is from Apple: "Apple has determined that a small percentage of the keyboards in certain MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro models may exhibit one or more of the following behaviors:".

I believe the reaction is overblown to the "small percentage".

And where's your proof it didn't suck to type on? Waiting for that. Apple specifically touted "key travel" in the new Magic Keyboard, so clearly it had enough resonance with consumers to make it a selling point.

 

[ericwn]

• Amid mounting scrutiny over its App Store practices, Apple acknowledged that if the commission it collects on certain purchases were to decline, the company's financial results could be "materially adversely affected."

That's one to think about, if Apple loses Google Default search setting it will affect income by 8-12 Billion.

That’s relevant to the discussion of Mac sales how?

 

[ericwn]

first statement is also not representative of any fact. 3 people isn't enough data.

Anything that comes with its own replacement program is a good indicator for a bad design.

 

[ericwn]

Not surprising seeing how so many were waiting on the revamped keyboard.

Yup. Thank god Apple had to reverse 100% from that terrible keyboard.

 

[ericwn]

i never said it had 0 problems. it affected a small number like you. the reaction is widely overblown given the small number.

Given you have no idea about the number, why continue the guessing game?

Apple had a reason to abandon this bad design entirely, and they did. They just waited it out a bit to make it less obvious that someone was asleep at the wheel when the first 12” MacBook with this keyboard imitation shipped and then was extended to more product lines.

In my last department, about 50% of these machines had to be repaired at least once, always non functioning keys.

 

[Kkspire]

How was this issue overblown when Apple had a repair program set up to fix units with issues, repeatedly addressed it in year over year design adjustments, and then finally switched to a different one and stopped using it? You don’t need to defend Apple here, they have a team of lawyers for that. This problem was documented and addressed endlessly, it definitely wasn’t overblown.

They have repair extension programs for many devices. I’d bet they do this out of doing the right thing and taking care of their customers because it’s the right thing. Not because they “had” to. The buck stops at one year. Everything else is gratuity. Check out competitors sites and see how often they offer something out of warranty. News flash — they don’t. You throw them away and buy a new one.

 

[Neepman]

Your personal experience doesn't speak for the majority. Knowing "many" is arbitrary and doesn't explain much. I never had a problem with the keyboard and I know many that haven't experienced a single issue but that says nothing about what it actually is happening for most customers. Goes both ways.

Issuing a repair program is not a guarantee that there was a widespread issue. All MacBook models have had some defect with keyboards. It's entirely possible the dislike of the feel of the keys amplified any keyboard issues that would have normally have gone under the radar had the design not change at all.

Modifying the design of the keyboard is not proof of purely a mechanical issue. As Steve Jobs once said "People vote with their wallets". It's possible people simply didn't like the feel of the keys. Combine that with the amplified, overblown issues, it has scared a lot of customers away from even considering the MacBook.

Imagine if you were the CEO and you came up with this new keyboard. The Genius Bar data tells you there's just an average amount of people coming in with keyboard issues, yet MacBook sales are declining and your feedback inbox is overflowing with people disliking the keyboards. Obviously you would revert the keyboard design and provide a "repair program" stand by your keyboard design alleviate concerns of current customers. Objectively, this is a possibility that isn't too far fetched to consider.

Don't even know where to start with this. EVERY single one of my friends and associates had an issue with this keyboard. I feel more lucky than smart I skipped this generation of MBP's.

 

[Maconplasma]

I find it so funny how people still dig at Apple over a damn keyboard but the Samsung forums have gotten way past the exploding phones that caused fires and 3rd degree burns on people. But hey let's keep harping on a damn keyboard. After all this forum is built on pettiness. SMH.

 

[ilikewhey]

They have repair extension programs for many devices. I’d bet they do this out of doing the right thing and taking care of their customers because it’s the right thing. Not because they “had” to. The buck stops at one year. Everything else is gratuity. Check out competitors sites and see how often they offer something out of warranty. News flash — they don’t. You throw them away and buy a new one.

Actually yes they kinda “had”to, apple was facing multiple class action and this repair program was somewhat of a settlement for them

 

[ilikewhey]

I find it so funny how people still dig at Apple over a damn keyboard but the Samsung forums have gotten way past the exploding phones that caused fires and 3rd degree burns on people. But hey let's keep harping on a damn keyboard. After all this forum is built on pettiness. SMH.

This is called macrumor after all, not Samsung rumor, if you wanna pull in other shenanigans why stop there, I find it so funny how people still dig at Samsung exploding phones when there are tankers spilling oils in the oceans and killing wild life 🙄

 

[Tooldog]

Let's try to remember that this filing doesn't represent the absolute truth. It is only advertising. No matter that it is required by rule. We all know how Apple feels about other people's rules.

 

[farewelwilliams]

As I said, only Apple knows the actual data. This doesn't mean the many reports of reliability issues, although anecdotal, cannot be taken into account to try to gauge the situation.

You can try using anecdotal points, but you won't conclude anything with it. It doesn't move the needle one way or the other.

I've had issues with my old Alienware X51 R2. Had it replaced 7+ times (have the receipts for all replacements). Looking online, there are many reports of overheating and random shutdown issues. Was a design failure? I want to say yes, but thinking objectively, I can't say yes or no without hard data.

Nobody claimed it is a "guarantee", but it is definitely a telltale sign.


Again, it's not "proof" but it's definitely yet another telltale sign.

That pretty much says you're just as potentially wrong as I am. See above.

The main issue with your reasoning is that you are trying to explain the issue with an explanation which is more far-fetched. This doesn't mean your explanation is impossible, but to summarize:

• There is significant anecdotal evidence reported that there are issue with the keyboard design.
• Teardowns confirmed that the keyboard design is indeed particularly susceptible to failure.
• Apple modifies the design, the new design being more protective of the keyboard from dust.
• Apple launches a repair program.

The simplest explanation is that the keyboard was especially unreliable. This explains all points above quite neatly.

"Far-fetched" is subjective.

Again, anecdotal points cannot possibly move the needle significantly one way or the other without additional data. "Significant anecdotal evidence" isn't scientific at all.

You want to believe it so much that it is a design fault but it's entirely possible Apple replaced the design because people simply didn't like it. People vote with their wallets and Apple listened.

Is your alternative explanation possible? Definitely, but it's definitely more convoluted, needing an explanation as of why there are so many reports of unreliability when the reliability is not an issue, or why the teardown shows susceptibility to failure wheares there is none, etc...

Evaluating the two explanations objectively, Occam's Razor points clearly at the "simplest" explanation being the more likely to be correct.

According to a report by Consumer Reports 2016 (I don't have the link anymore as I'm no longer a CR subscriber, but I can point you to a publication that reported on this), Apple has a 10% breakage rate by the end of a 2nd year of ownership.

Butterfly switch MacBooks were sold since 2015. Apple sells about 18 million Macs per year, but let's just say 10 million per year are MacBooks with butterfly switches (that's being conservative, Apple says MacBooks are the most popular Macs they sell). That's 50 million MacBooks with butterfly switches. That's about 5 million broken MacBooks out there in the world right now.

So at a 10% failure rate, 5 million MacBooks are bound to have MANY reports of keyboard failures, especially when each of those 78 keys are a movable part compared to, say, a camera.

So when you ask "why there are so many reports of unreliability", there's your answer. This is objective.

I can hypothesize that the combination of these reasons is why keyboard issues are overblown:
- It's a new piece of technology and therefore gave people a thing to blame
- People generally don't like the feel of the keys and therefore have an overall negative feel to the keyboard
- Social media growth gave customers a megaphone for any issues (Twitter grew from ~30 million active monthly users in 2010 to 300 million in 2015, for instance)

If you are a CEO and there are rumors that your product is unreliable, the last thing you would do is to issue a repair program, because it's bound to be interpreted in the obvious way: "if the product needs a repair program, it's unreliable. Confirmed!". It would be the dumbest PR move ever.

If I saw the data showing it's not an issue, I'd launch a program to back the keyboard reliability and ease the minds of current and potential customers. It's subjective of whether it's the dumbest PR move ever. Saying "you're typing it wrong" would be the dumbest PR move ever IMO.

Apple is much more likely to have issued the repair program because... the keyboard needed a repair program.

To back the product and ease the minds of current and potential customers. Good PR move to keep the trust of customers.