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I'm legit laughing that you think $85,000 is a going wage for a software engineer in *San Francisco*. I'm also absolutely certain because of that that either you don't work in this field or you are on something like low end IT and all of your posts on this thread are from a place of complete ignorance
No I don’t work in software and have never professed to have. I picked a figure out of the air which was pretty irrelevant to the point of suggesting cheaper wages can be found in other countries.

I’m a Senior Mechanical Design Engineer and notice how calm I remain when the likes of you and a couple of others resort to insulting my character and posts. That’s the difference my friend.
 
I dress in gym shorts or jeans and support an enterprise platform just fine. Who the hell needs a dress shirt and slacks to project professionalism? Also, apparently you haven't set foot in, well, any tech company's office outside maybe IBM in a long time, dress codes are mostly gone beyond "don't wear offensive stuff on your t-shirt"
No I am thankful I have never set foot inside a ‘tech company’ like IBM or the like and have never had any interest in a career developing software. I prefer using it to make components and products in physical form. Nothing wrong with your profession though but it’s not for me. Again, notice how I’m not putting you down whilst I remain respectful in this debate :)
 
No I don’t work in software and have never professed to have. I picked a figure out of the air which was pretty irrelevant to the point of suggesting cheaper wages can be found in other countries.

I’m a Senior Mechanical Design Engineer and notice how calm I remain when the likes of you and a couple of others resort to insulting my character and posts. That’s the difference my friend.

So you know nothing of the field, even to the point of thinking that somehow 1950s dress codes are still relevant, and don't understand recruitment (like why devs in the US are in demand), and don't understand people who don't want to be forced to go to an office, and think that the right management style for fixing that is just to keep firing people and locking folks down until morale improves? Gee, I wonder why people aren't respecting your posts.
 
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No I am thankful I have never set foot inside a ‘tech company’ like IBM or the like and have never had any interest in a career developing software. I prefer using it to make components and products in physical form. Nothing wrong with your profession though but it’s not for me. Again, notice how I’m not putting you down whilst I remain respectful in this debate :)
IBM builds a lot of hardware, my friend.
 
So you know nothing of the field, even to the point of thinking that somehow 1950s dress codes are still relevant, and don't understand recruitment (like why devs in the US are in demand), and don't understand people who don't want to be forced to go to an office, and think that the right management style for fixing that is just to keep firing people and locking folks down until morale improves? Gee, I wonder why people aren't respecting your posts.

I just have a different opinion to you. If I’ve managed to argue my point without insulting others and labelling their views as ‘ignorant’ then why can’t you do the same? Plenty of others seem to respect my posts judging by the reactions thank you :)
 
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they will soon have computers that can code, make apps and solve i.t problems! then they can all learn to be plumbers!
 
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I just have a different opinion to you. If I’ve managed to argue my point without insulting others and labelling their views as ‘ignorant’ then why can’t you do the same? Plenty of others seem to respect my posts judging by the reactions thank you :)
Lol all you’ve done is act condescending and mock throughout this thread. Not sure if you’ve called anyone a name, but that’s hardly the bar for being respectful.
 
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Nobody is indispensable and desks will always be filled with quality people willing to be given the chance. Apple aren’t going to have an issue tempting personnel to Cupertino to fill those desks left void by those preferring to work from their sofa or garden. I can’t see Apple struggling and being held to random by a young generation of people who don’t want to come to work somehow.
I’m not saying they can’t replace a few people here and there, because you’re right, no one is indispensable. At some point though, if you’re having a constant churn, or only able to hire B and C level employees, then ya it’s going to effect things. You’re right, I’m sure the guy at Wendy’s would love to work at Apple, that doesn’t make him qualified though.

you’re betting one a back to status quo work environment in which the younger generation will fall in line. I’m betting on a younger generation who is less impressed by the name of the company and more about “what can you do for me”.

if Apple wants to outsource all their work to India, that’s something they can certainly do, but only makes my point stronger that a business does not care about your well being, so why should you care about theirs. Both sides just want to make money and do what’s best for them. If Apple really saw a benefit from outsourcing their labor to other countries, they would have done it already. There’s a reason why we don’t see very many Apple factories here in the states.
 
Because there is a huge difference, especially to large corporations, imo, of “just working” and “just working optimally”.

Puzzling that some don’t see that.
 
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I'm legit laughing that you think $85,000 is a going wage for a software engineer in *San Francisco*. I'm also absolutely certain because of that that either you don't work in this field or you are on something like low end IT and all of your posts on this thread are from a place of complete ignorance

If they’re making a lot more than $85,000, then that proves our point even more. Why pay $150,000 to an American malcontent when there are people overseas who’d be thrilled to have the job at $50,000 or less?
 
If they’re making a lot more than $85,000, then that proves our point even more. Why pay $150,000 to an American malcontent when there are people overseas who’d be thrilled to have the job at $50,000 or less?
If you think being in an office is the only thing stopping them, then I think you have it wrong. Apple already outsources its factory work, if they felt there was an advantage to moving software and design overseas, then they would have done that as well.

part of the issue with that is it’s a terrible look. Companies already get a bad wrap for outsourcing their labor, Apple doesn’t want the negative press of firing all their American workers just to save a few bucks and make a point.
 
If you think being in an office is the only thing stopping them, then I think you have it wrong. Apple already outsources its factory work, if they felt there was an advantage to moving software and design overseas, then they would have done that as well.

part of the issue with that is it’s a terrible look. Companies already get a bad wrap for outsourcing their labor, Apple doesn’t want the negative press of firing all their American workers just to save a few bucks and make a point.

The average American isn’t going to care if a bunch of whiny employees get fired for — gasp — refusing to work in their cushy, billion-dollar office.
 
The average American isn’t going to care if a bunch of whiny employees get fired for — gasp — refusing to work in their cushy, billion-dollar office.
Lol there’s a lot of things I’d think the average American wouldn’t care about, but somehow do… so don’t sell America short on that one. My point wasn’t about these 80 employees getting fired… the point was if they started outsourcing all their jobs because it was cheaper than paying people who are working from home. You’d have politicians screaming for days about that
 
Lol there’s a lot of things I’d think the average American wouldn’t care about, but somehow do… so don’t sell America short on that one. My point wasn’t about these 80 employees getting fired… the point was if they started outsourcing all their jobs because it was cheaper than paying people who are working from home. You’d have politicians screaming for days about that

What’s so special about tech workers? Millions of American jobs have been outsourced and everyone mostly shrugs. Factory workers are a lot more sympathetic than Apple employees.
 
In light of the recently concluded WWDC keynote, what are your thoughts on continuing to allow Apple employees to work from home if the trade off is a slower pace of innovation for Apple products?
 
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In light of the recently concluded WWDC keynote, what are your thoughts on continuing to allow Apple employees to work from home if the trade off is a slower pace of innovation for Apple products?
Especially the part on Health, where MDs came together with Apple's engineers to collaborate. I thought that part was excellent.
 
In light of the recently concluded WWDC keynote, what are your thoughts on continuing to allow Apple employees to work from home if the trade off is a slower pace of innovation for Apple products?

Forget simply moving the current staff back to the office. I’m in favor of a round of firings to send a message. It’s clear that innovation is low on the list of priorities for a non-trivial percentage of Apple employees these days.
 
In light of the recently concluded WWDC keynote, what are your thoughts on continuing to allow Apple employees to work from home if the trade off is a slower pace of innovation for Apple products?
I really missed the announcements, so I say hurry up, instead of being content with slower innovation.
 
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Forget simply moving the current staff back to the office. I’m in favor of a round of firings to send a message. It’s clear that innovation is low on the list of priorities for a non-trivial percentage of Apple employees these days.
Ah yes, because the best way to recruit talent and motivate your existing workforce is mass layoffs based purely on "sending a message"
 
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Lol all you’ve done is act condescending and mock throughout this thread. Not sure if you’ve called anyone a name, but that’s hardly the bar for being respectful.
I’ve maintained my opinion throughout the thread and done so in much more respectful manner than yourself and one other. You don’t agree with my view and got frustrated I haven’t changed it for your benefit. Not my problem :)
 
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I’m not saying they can’t replace a few people here and there, because you’re right, no one is indispensable. At some point though, if you’re having a constant churn, or only able to hire B and C level employees, then ya it’s going to effect things. You’re right, I’m sure the guy at Wendy’s would love to work at Apple, that doesn’t make him qualified though.

you’re betting one a back to status quo work environment in which the younger generation will fall in line. I’m betting on a younger generation who is less impressed by the name of the company and more about “what can you do for me”.

if Apple wants to outsource all their work to India, that’s something they can certainly do, but only makes my point stronger that a business does not care about your well being, so why should you care about theirs. Both sides just want to make money and do what’s best for them. If Apple really saw a benefit from outsourcing their labor to other countries, they would have done it already. There’s a reason why we don’t see very many Apple factories here in the states.

I think the proposal Apple have outlined here is very generous. A lot of companies are telling workers to come back to work or face redundancy. Asking workers to come back but still provide the option to work from home 2 days a week is a very good deal and not one they are obliged to offer.

Not sure what sourcing people from fast food restaurants has to do with this? Do you think if these people left Apple because their demands were not met, somehow Apple would look to recruit completely unqualified people? That doesn’t sound at all feasible or realistic to me.
 
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Mentality doesn’t preclude you from being able to use technology. My comments were more to highlight that times change, society and technology evolves, and there is ALWAYS someone that fights it. Remember when suits in the office were a requirement? Then eventually people realize how stupid that is in most situations (not saying all, but most). Did you embrace that change or did you act like anyone who pushed for casual dress was a entitled snowflake?

without pushback, nothing ever changes. If nothing ever changes then society can’t move forward. If you can do your job remotely, then it doesn’t matter where you are.. just get the work done!
I’ve always worked in an office where a shirt was a requirement except on a Friday but you still come in smart casual. People don’t walk in wearing shorts and T-shirt’s and sit on meetings with companies like Bentley and Aston Martin, as it wouldn’t be at all appropriate. I’m sure for those people who just have contact with their colleagues and image is not at all important in the general working day, they can wear what they like. When you work in a sector where it’s a mix of internal and external meetings, a level of professionalism is required. It comes back to that old point, it ‘depends on the job’.

Working from home full time and wearing your beach wear isn’t always appropriate for everybody.
 
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Ah yes, because the best way to recruit talent and motivate your existing workforce is mass layoffs based purely on "sending a message"

Apple has $195,570,000,000 in cash on hand. Their problem isn’t an inability to recruit talent. Their problem seems to be that they’re recruiting the wrong people.
 
But why not get rid of the real estate? Cost-cutting is usually one of the best ways for management types to distinguish themselves in the eyes of their superiors.

Because, even if a company suddenly had zero need for the office space and they could "save the company some $$", then the manager still has to understand what the **** their underlings do.

I think you're grossly underestimating how much middle managers rely on "well bob is in the office 9 hours a day so bob must be productive".
 
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