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Maybe its just me, but I fail to understand why Scotland Yard refuses to take more definitive action such as bean bag guns or water cannons. Initially I can understand such hesitation. I was listening to NPR today and one of the heads there stated he refused to be the first leader of Scotland Yards to resort to such methods. But with such extensive damage and increasing pressure from locals, I would think they would appreciate swift action rather than amiable means.

Explanation on the BBC website: The police _first_ has to keep the peace, _second_ to keep up the law. Makes for a tough job if people behave like animals and you still have to treat them like people. But in the end, it will just take a bit longer to clean up. Most of the people in these riots are idiots, so they are going to be caught. Many faces known to the police, many stolen mobile phones that will be tracked as soon as someone uses them, RIM's messaging archives available to the police, that means they will be busy arresting people in the next weeks.
 
It is not a ridiculous statement. Frankly you wouldn't know because you do not have the freedom.

It's called raising the risk to reward ratio. If you see me standing there with a rifle the chances of you trying anything and the risk has now gone away from the reward. It wasn't said to kill looters or rioters. It's a deterent, and a damn good one. Many did it during the LA riots years ago here in CA.


lol at your pathetic freedom its all paper talk, there are more civil rights abuses in your country then mine

lol violently at you:D
 
I would clear the store and put an M2 or a couple of 1919A4s at the back end of the store and just wait for the first pane of glass to be broken.

Yeah... and take out the cars and businesses across the street from you while you're at it. This isn't Iwo Jima, it's a city.
 
+1

When was the last time you heard of person who had the intent to perform a crime actually used a weapon they purchased legally? I would bet the number is extremely small.
The number is actually quite high. That's because the vast majority of people killed by guns (about 75%) are killed by a family member during a fight. About 12% are killed by a friend or acquaintance. And, finally, about 12% are killed by someone who is in act of committing another crime. These numbers are from King County, in Washington State and are pretty close to the National average. Guns used in the home during a domestic dispute are almost always there legally. The person using the gun is not a criminal, until of course they shoot their spouse or child or sibling.

In other words - in order to have the right to protect yourself from criminals, you need to accept that for every "bad guy" shot and killed by law-abiding citizens 7 innocent people are shot and killed as well.
... (Don't have one, to dangerous to have in the house with kids)
Good news.
Guns are not always the answer, though they can help at times.
 
The person using the gun is not a criminal, until of course they shoot their spouse or child or sibling.

Your whole post was very well said, and this part is what got me the most.

In America, we like to have the Good vs. Evil concept, it's somewhat entrenched in our culture: There are those who purposefully do mean things, and those who are innocent victims. There are "criminals" and then there's everyone else. There are those who are lazy mooches and those who work hard and earn a living.

But the reality is so much more complex than this. Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime the first time, and almost always this is a result of society/family/friends failing this person. I realize it's much easier to say "now there's an inherently bad person (a criminal! a hooligan!), and if I had a gun, by golly..." but the reality is that we all bear a certain amount of responsibility in keeping society running well and trying to minimize the chances people end up in situations where they do bad things.

We spend vastly more money on our prison system than we do on our mental health or social services. If someone commits a crime and you have them arrested, now your taxpayers go to keep this person alive in a concrete cell. Sure, it gives you an element of satisfaction of justice / revenge to know that the specific person who committed the crime against you has to suffer, but this extremely rarely helps this situation in general. Wouldn't it be better if we spent more up front to try to help prevent these issues in the first place?

It's so easy to push off or ignore people whose lives are different / harder / more confusing than your own, but we all pay for this model of shoving-under-the-rug. Irrational reactions inherently will flare up periodically.
 
Although, murder per capita is higher in the US, property crime and theft are considerably lower than the so-called civilized European countries including the Brits. So, in the US we care about the more important stuff like protecting our livelihood.

If the property owners had automatic weapons, then this riot would have ended some time ago. In L.A. 1992, only the Korean shop owners had weapons and they were the least affected of those in south central L.A. By the mid to late 1990s, people in L.A. became much better armed and hence rioting has not happened there since.

"As far as these so-called assault weapons, you say that they don't have any defense use. You tell that to the guy that I saw on a videotape of the L.A. riots, standing up on his rooftop protecting his property and his life from an entire mob with one of these so-called assault weapons. Tell me that he didn't have a legitimate self-defense use."

In certain southwest states of the US, carrying a concealed weapon is permissible and in Arizona, an open weapon is permissible. Soon these states will allow a student to carry a concealed firearm to their college campus. That should help in reducing hazing and general violence against women, plus the folks, including the teachers, will be a lot more friendly.

What we need in the US are laws that force a high school requirement of marksmanship training. If everyone was well armed, we would not have half the problems we currently do.
 
Although, murder per capita is higher in the US, property crime and theft are considerably lower than the so-called civilized European countries including the Brits. So, in the US we care about the more important stuff like protecting our livelihood.

If the property owners had automatic weapons, then this riot would have ended some time ago. In L.A. 1992, only the Korean shop owners had weapons and they were the least affected of those in south central L.A. By the mid to late 1990s, people in L.A. became much better armed and hence rioting has not happened there since.

"As far as these so-called assault weapons, you say that they don't have any defense use. You tell that to the guy that I saw on a videotape of the L.A. riots, standing up on his rooftop protecting his property and his life from an entire mob with one of these so-called assault weapons. Tell me that he didn't have a legitimate self-defense use."

In certain southwest states of the US, carrying a concealed weapon is permissible and in Arizona, an open weapon is permissible. Soon these states will allow a student to carry a concealed firearm to their college campus. That should help in reducing hazing and general violence against women, plus the folks, including the teachers, will be a lot more friendly.

What we need in the US are laws that force a high school requirement of marksmanship training. If everyone was well armed, we would not have half the problems we currently do.

... All I could think of while reading all of this is how our government blew a gasket when a man tried to teach ninjitsu in North Carolina... (which is, apparently, against the law) but federal government is a-okay with the grand majority being able to purchase firearms.

...

I mean, I get the whole notion behind the right to bear arms... but I can't help but think the "Us vs. Them" mentality it drives between the people and their government has actually reinforced the image of the average Joe/Jane being incapable of producing any measurable difference in the way we are governed as a society. 1984 is bad, yes, but you know what else is? War. We had a civil war HOW MANY years ago and it's STILL the number 1 on the casualty list even after both world wars? And that's what it comes to eventually when you rely on "Us vs. Them" and arm your hands quicker than your brain.

There's a lot to be learned here. I just hope we catch even half of it.

:apple:
 
plus the folks, including the teachers, will be a lot more friendly.

Hey, maybe they'll give higher grades, too! :rolleyes:

Over the years I've met many people that could have been more friendly, but I never once thought that if I only had a gun they would be more friendly (let alone a lot more friendly.)

That's messed up. All I could think of when I read that was the old Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life" with the omnipotent kid holding his family hostage to his every whim.
 
Although, murder per capita is higher in the US, property crime and theft are considerably lower than the so-called civilized European countries including the Brits. So, in the US we care about the more important stuff like protecting our livelihood.

Where are you getting this? Burglary rate per 1000 people in the US is about 7.1. It's higher in the UK (13) but lower than that in France, Ireland, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain (just 0.7 there) etc. In fact almost any Western European country!

In L.A. 1992, only the Korean shop owners had weapons and they were the least affected of those in south central L.A. By the mid to late 1990s, people in L.A. became much better armed and hence rioting has not happened there since.

Again, Korea Town was the most affected area! California is ranked 32nd in terms of gun ownership, not very high.

To say there have been no riots due to more guns is a massive leap. Can you provide evidence or causation not just correlation?
 
Although, murder per capita is higher in the US, property crime and theft are considerably lower than the so-called civilized European countries including the Brits. So, in the US we care about the more important stuff like protecting our livelihood.
Did you just say that it's more important to protect your stuff than people's lives? I'm going to assume that you may have misspoke yourself, and didn't mean your comment to actually say that.

As others have pointed out, your stats are not quite accurate. Also, don't confuse reported crime rates with actual crime rates. These threads themselves have lots of examples where - in the US - people are advised to not bother going to police for petty property theft since the cops are too busy dealing with the more serious crimes. Which is a far cry from the UK where people can still go in and report petty property theft and be taken seriously.
...
In certain southwest states of the US, carrying a concealed weapon is permissible and in Arizona, an open weapon is permissible. Soon these states will allow a student to carry a concealed firearm to their college campus. That should help in reducing hazing and general violence against women,
Oh boy... that's going to end well. Hazing already involves the suspension of rational thinking by a group of hyped up teenagers, who have convinced themselves that doing something stupid is a good idea, often under the influence of alcohol. Now, lets arm them. And - their intended victim. And I thought our legislators were pretty thick sometimes.
plus the folks, including the teachers, will be a lot more friendly.
Sarcasm, right?
What we need in the US are laws that force a high school requirement of marksmanship training. If everyone was well armed, we would not have half the problems we currently do.
And yet, in virtually every nation that has loose gun control, crime rates and murder rates go up, and in nations with strict gun control crime rates and murder rates go down. "Gun Control" is not the same as "Gun Ownership". The USA tends towards widespread gun ownership - and loose gun control. Other countries, like the Swiss, the UK and Canada, allow gun ownership - but under tight controls.

In the Swiss example, often cited to show that gun ownership doesn't actually mean murder crime rates, gun ownership is different. Handguns are not in wide circulation, and are heavily restricted. However rifles are assigned to people who have completed basic training in the army and are still part of the reserves. These rifles are rigorously inspected and controlled by the State, in home inspections, to make sure that they are stored properly. They are registered, and you need to register the ammunition you buy. Swiss can't just walk around with their rifles, they have to be either going to a shooting range or to their reserve unit on active duty. In other words, the reason Americans are supposedly given a constitutional right to bear arms does not apply at all in the Swiss model where the State can and does seize arms that don't meet it's requirements.

Plus the Swiss are now moving to reduce the numbers of guns held by the reserve because, ironically, they've decided that there are too many gun deaths at 1.42 per 100,1000 (The US rate is about 4x as high. Canada and the UK clock in at about 1/3 of the Swiss rate. And Australia sits at .07 per 100,00 people).
 
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Burglaries:

US # 17
UK # 7

You ignore- France, Ireland, Netherlands, Portugal, Greece, Spain which are all lower. Spain has a burglary rate of 0.6 compared to USA's 7.1, with much tighter gun controls.

You keep saying crimes are lower in the US because you have guns. However, you have failed to (a) show crimes that are actually lower, (b) show evidence of causation.

Care to try again...?

________

EDIT-

Car theft and general theft are higher in other developed countries in the world compared to the US because we can own guns here in America.

It's hard to get good comparable stats on "general theft" as you put it because definitions of what is theft and classifications vary between countries. However, I found a report on car thefts. In 1996 the car theft rate in England and Wales was twice that of the US, however, following various initiatives the car theft rate dropped below that of the US in 2006. It's now about 10% lower.
 
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Burglaries:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

US # 17
UK # 7

Car theft and general theft are higher in other developed countries in the world compared to the US because we can own guns here in America.

Not nearly as simple as that....
1) You have to account for demographics. Crimes occur more often in urban areas than rural. The UK is much more urbanized than the US, and therefore it's expected to see a higher incidence of crime.
2) Interestingly Arizona has one of the higher car theft rates in US, even though they have very lax gun control laws. Therefore you can't connect gun ownership to lack of crime.
3) As already stated, 'Burglary' is defined differently in different countries. So you aren't comparing apples to apples. In the US you can be charged with 'Burglary' even if nothing is stolen.
4) Most burglary and thefts occur when the homeowner is away. In fact, it's called 'Robbery' if you still from a person. Owning a gun, then, doesn't protect you from a burglary since there is no one there to protect the premises.

Plus - you are missing a really big point. For a society to accept the notion that it's acceptable to protect stuff with a gun, they must also accept that those guns will be used mostly to kill innocent people. About 7 for every criminal shot and killed.
 
You ignore- France, Ireland, Netherlands, Portugal, Greece, Spain which are all lower. Spain has a burglary rate of 0.6 compared to USA's 7.1, with much tighter gun controls.

You keep saying crimes are lower in the US because you have guns. However, you have failed to (a) show crimes that are actually lower, (b) show evidence of causation.

Care to try again...?

Your argument is false and you are attempting to make the US look like Somalia on law and order.

Think again my friend. Ireland and Portugal are statistically too small to matter. In Spain, Greece & France the local authorities are corrupt and property crime is under reported. The Netherlands is probably valid argument for low crime rates, but drugs and solicitation are legal there and eliminates crime related to that activity.

Car theft is quite high in Europe compared to the US:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-car-theft-rates.html

Ranked: Switzerland, NZ, England/Wales, Sweden, Australia, Denmark, Scotland, Italy, Canada and Norway.

The bottom line is that firearms do indeed protect against property crime. The rate of 7 innocents to 1 criminal killed in the US is also a slanted statistic. What you have to look for is the death rate per firearm and you will find that is quite low for the US. In the US we need better training, not more restrictions to our 2nd amendment rights.
 
Your argument is false and you are attempting to make the US look like Somalia on law and order.
I can't speak for the others, but I'm merely trying to make the point that guns do not make a country safer. Luckily, the US has a long ways to go before it even gets close to the horrors of Somalia.
Think again my friend. Ireland and Portugal are statistically too small to matter. In Spain, Greece & France the local authorities are corrupt and property crime is under reported. The Netherlands is probably valid argument for low crime rates, but drugs and solicitation are legal there and eliminates crime related to that activity.

Car theft is quite high in Europe compared to the US:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-car-theft-rates.html

Ranked: Switzerland, NZ, England/Wales, Sweden, Australia, Denmark, Scotland, Italy, Canada and Norway.

The bottom line is that firearms do indeed protect against property crime. The rate of 7 innocents to 1 criminal killed in the US is also a slanted statistic. What you have to look for is the death rate per firearm and you will find that is quite low for the US. In the US we need better training, not more restrictions to our 2nd amendment rights.
And as for the rest of the post, it just shows a not great grasp of statistics, and that you will believe what you want to believe regardless of any evidence to the contrary. And that is your right as well.

I have often wondered, however, why Americans cling to the right to own a weapon that was current more than 200 years ago. It would be like showing up at the revolution in 1776 with a pike and broad sword. If you want to read a fine speculative fiction book about how a government may take over in our current times, read "A Handmaid's Tale". It was also made into a movie, but in the movie some of details of how citizens lost their freedom is lost. It's a good read.
 
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Just a bit of fun!!

04fedf4a.jpg
 
Your argument is false and you are attempting to make the US look like Somalia on law and order.

Think again my friend. Ireland and Portugal are statistically too small to matter. In Spain, Greece & France the local authorities are corrupt and property crime is under reported. The Netherlands is probably valid argument for low crime rates, but drugs and solicitation are legal there and eliminates crime related to that activity.

You keeping making these claims without evidence. Ok, Iceland is small but Portugal has 11 million people. I know little about Greece, but where on earth did you get the idea France and Spain are corrupt? France, Spain, UK and Germany are the 'big 4' in the EU and have effective law enforcement.

Plus why do drugs mean Netherlands have a low burglary rate? Source?

Car theft is quite high in Europe compared to the US:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-car-theft-rates.html

Ranked: Switzerland, NZ, England/Wales, Sweden, Australia, Denmark, Scotland, Italy, Canada and Norway.

Your evidence has the UK in the 700s, I fear it is outdated (it doesn't state a source) as my international report shows it dropping from 1500 to 360 in 10 years, dipping below the US at 390.

Plus, where is the evidence that guns have caused this "low theft rate" in the US? Correlation is not causation. You've failed to demonstrate either.

The bottom line is that firearms do indeed protect against property crime. The rate of 7 innocents to 1 criminal killed in the US is also a slanted statistic. What you have to look for is the death rate per firearm and you will find that is quite low for the US. In the US we need better training, not more restrictions to our 2nd amendment rights.

The bottom line is you haven't shown that.

Considering how many people own a gun in the US and how many guns there are it shows many own more than one- so I'd expect the death rate per weapon to be low. Simply, the US has 250 times as many gun homicides than the UK, but only 5 times the population. Plus you have 4 times the murder rate.
 
I was there last year, at the same time, it was crowded but the staff was nice. I met one german speaking Genius there. He was very kind.

No I am in the its-never-gotten-any-problems-USA and everything seems to be peaceful there in San Diego. In fact, the people are more kindly than people in my home country Germany... what a surprise. Europe sucks.
 
I was there last year, at the same time, it was crowded but the staff was nice. I met one german speaking Genius there. He was very kind.

No I am in the its-never-gotten-any-problems-USA and everything seems to be peaceful there in San Diego. In fact, the people are more kindly than people in my home country Germany... what a surprise. ....

I agree - San Diego is nice. I've visited a couple of times. Good weather, good food, they've redeveloped a lot of waterfront as parks, trails, restaurants, etc. It's like a Vancouver-south, but with good weather. I also thought the people there were friendly. I put it down to them being really happy.
 
Yeah... and take out the cars and businesses across the street from you while you're at it. This isn't Iwo Jima, it's a city.

Definitely don't wanna take out the krispy kreme shop just opposite. I need my fix.

As someone who often works in toxteth and the city centre I'm glad to see the issue didn't escalate in liverpool.
 
You keeping making these claims without evidence. Ok, Iceland is small but Portugal has 11 million people. I know little about Greece, but where on earth did you get the idea France and Spain are corrupt? France, Spain, UK and Germany are the 'big 4' in the EU and have effective law enforcement.

Plus why do drugs mean Netherlands have a low burglary rate? Source?



Your evidence has the UK in the 700s, I fear it is outdated (it doesn't state a source) as my international report shows it dropping from 1500 to 360 in 10 years, dipping below the US at 390.

Plus, where is the evidence that guns have caused this "low theft rate" in the US? Correlation is not causation. You've failed to demonstrate either.



The bottom line is you haven't shown that.

Considering how many people own a gun in the US and how many guns there are it shows many own more than one- so I'd expect the death rate per weapon to be low. Simply, the US has 250 times as many gun homicides than the UK, but only 5 times the population. Plus you have 4 times the murder rate.

The so called "big-four" of the EU have far more inequity between ethnic minorities and the general populace that much crime is simply not reported or the police look the other way. Why else would you have these large disenfranchised Islamic groups running so rabid only to be countered by unemployable skin heads in the EU?

The amount of robberies and assaults in the EU that go unreported aren't even funny. Hate crimes are also unreported. If you're a non-white in Europe who is a citizen and is following the law, life in the EU is a bitch and comparable to a 3rd world country.

I'll take my guns any day, and the next time the UK is in trouble, don't ask to be bailed out by the US.
 
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