Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

[idiiamots]

Now say Walmart demands a higher cut of the distribution fee, poop stool says OK, no more for you, starts shipping more to Target.

Hold on, doesn't this statement in your example invalidate the rest of your post? Apple is exactly like Walmart in your example. They have a distribution fee for the right to sell to Apple customers. This fee is the same for any developer. To ensure developers don't pass the fee to Apple's customers, Apple explicitly prohibits doing so if the app is sold elsewhere. Just like poop stool in your example, Epic can say "no more for you, Apple", remove their app from Apple App Store and sell through Google/Steam (Target, in your example).

Apple competes in the "computing device" market. Apple doesn't prevent any developer from selling on any other platform. Apple sees their customer base as something of value and it charges for the privilege to access that customer base. Why can't Apple decide how much to charge and let the market (developers/users) decide whether it makes Apple ecosystem an attractive place?

 

[nitramluap]

In progressive countries we pay proportionally more income tax the more we earn - it’s only fair. For that we get universal healthcare, good public transport & pensions. Perhaps Apple should apply that idea to their App Store - millions of small developers (like me) will be very happy and the big greedy ones can suck it up.

But the USA also needs to overhaul its company & income tax system, and add a decent *living* minimum wage. With the way everything is going on in the USA, I don’t think you’re capable of doing it which is really sad for you, because it’s one of the ways the USA will get out of the horrible hole it’s in...

 

[sdz]

The EU Commission will solve this swiftly.

 

[Altivec88]

Argument is that consoles are sold at a loss (or close to it) and that software sales cut make up for that. And most publishers negotiate the cut given to Microsoft, Sony, etc. Epic certainly does not pay 30% tax to console makers.

That is a company's decision. They don't have to sell it for a loss if they don't want to. The pros of selling it at a loss is that more people can afford to buy your product and therefor you can make more money in your store. Apple could choose to do the same thing if they wanted to. So if they lowered each iPhone's price by $300 to sell it at cost, then all of sudden you are okay if they charge 30% in their store. What I am getting at is, its irrelevant if the hardware is sold at a profit or at a loss. You either believe a company has a right to control their own platform or you don't. The PlayStation Store is no different than the Apple store in this regards.

If what you are saying is true (which I haven't seen any facts yet), that Sony, Microsoft and all are making special deals for some developers, then that is a where the abuse of power that stifles innovation happens. How is that fair to a much smaller company that wants to create a game that competes with fortnight. if Epic is only paying 10% and they have to pay 30% they won't be able to do it. The rules need to be applied the same to everyone regardless if you are big or small, just like Apple is doing. Bravo to Apple for following through and taking big flack for this. Smaller developers thank you for keeping things fair.

 

[TiggrToo]

I've avoided adding my 2 cents to this whole debacle, but I've had enough reading the pro-Apple comments here.

Here's the truth, chew on it.

For all those who want to claim that Apple is right and fair in its offering, your sadly wrong. Let's use this Walmart example, and let's say its the poop stool from Shark Tank as the product. Poop stool can be sold at any brick and mortar store, any online only storefront, and directly from their website. Of course selling it directly nets more profit, but they pay a fair negotiated price to be distributed. Now say Walmart demands a higher cut of the distribution fee, poop stool says OK, no more for you, starts shipping more to Target. It can control its distribution costs by leveraging a fair, marketplace of plentiful retailers.

Now look at Apple's Eco-system. They are the ONLY distributor, warehouse, and payment system available. They are the gatekeeper to the Apple system. They didn't develop the game, they didn't write the code, however they DID provide the tools to make such game work on their Eco-system. Epic didn't rely on Apple tools to make Fortnite, they used the developer tools to make it for work for Apple products. Hence the developers covert the game for every other platform too PS,XBOX,PC,NINTENDO, ANDROID, Etc.

With Apple, you can't sell the software without going through them, you can't change retailers, you can't change app stores, you can't use any other way to reach the customer except through them. There's no negotiating at the table, so every developer loses 30% of their revenue to Apple in return for access to these customers. The Apple developer tools for most are just ways to convert the app to work on ios, so bigger companies like Epic could absorb this revenue loss, but smaller John Doe's in a basement are stuck losing the same amount. 30% makes a difference when you sell millions a year vs $50k/yr on an app.

I believe in the end if the governments of the world aren't paid off, that Apple will lose this fight. They ARE the only way to access the customer base of Apple products. They are anti-competition, and they know it. By trying to shoo these developers under the rug, they're only getting more intensely investigated.

Maybe we need a developers union? To fight for the rights of all developers. Because if every developer got together and collectively pulled down the #1 revenue source of Apple, I think they might come back to the table. Otherwise, we all just eat what's served. "Everyone ignore the problem, until it shows up on your doorstop."

You've a better chance herding cats than to expect developers to join a "Union".

Also, Walmart's power and control over wholesalers and distributors is legendary.

Just ask Rubbermaid. Oh wait, too late. Walmart destroyed the original company in the late 1990s.

 

[redneckitengineer]

Before setting up a developers union, I suggest doing some research into how it was for developers before the App Store and the outrageous % games distributors took from developers. You might actually find over the years Apple has done far more for developers than any other company. Bit like how apple music pays artist far more than Spotify does, Spotify might claim apple has an unfair advantage in music but that give that back to artists. Of course thats never is reported as it doesn't fit the Apple is bad narrative thats fashionable to push these days

I'm sorry, did you install the Amazon App Store, Samsung Galaxy Store, GetJar, whatever Huawei store on your iPhone that "competes" with the Apple App Store? Oh wait...you can't. Therefore my point is valid. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVE ROUTES TO REACH THE CUSTOMER ON IOS. THIS IS FORCED MONOPOLY.

Epic didn't like Steam prices, so they made their own store, lowered the developers fees, and is taking Steam to the cleaners. You can't do that with Apple devices, you can't go make a competitor. Your stuck.

 

[tranceme]

I hope Apple gets split like they did with Microsoft back in the days. They abused their vast sphere of influence enough already. Maybe then they’ll finally start caring about their primary audience again: their customers.

What? How are they not thinking about their customers? How are they abusive?

 

[redneckitengineer]

You've a better chance herding cats than to expect developers to join a "Union".

Also, Walmart's power and control over wholesalers and distributors is legendary.

Just ask Rubbermaid. Oh wait, too late. Walmart destroyed the original company in the late 1990s.

Like I said.. we all eat what's served until somebody has the balls to stand up and say the food sucks.

 

[sdz]

That's perfectly fine and the right mechanism for resolving Epic's problem is letting the market decide. If Epic isn't happy with 30% "tax", they are free to remove their app from Apple's platforms. If lack of Fortnite (or whichever other developers decide to leave the platform) causes a dip in iDevice sales, Apple will react as appropriate for their business strategy. As it stands now, Apple's position is that with over 1.4B devices their platform is still represents an attractive opportunity for developers.

Furthermore, Apple's 30% cut is in line with other major platforms:

Google Play Store	30% (15% for subscriptions after 12 months)
Amazon App Store	30% (20% for video streaming subscriptions)
Samsung Galaxy Store	30% (or otherwise agreed-upon)
Microsoft Store	30% on games 30% on all sales in Business and Education stores 30% for Windows 8 devices 15% otherwise
Apple App Store	30% (15% for subscriptions after 12 months)

Oligopoly price determination.

Nothing to be proud of.

Let the market price this service. So, open up the app store market.

 

[4jasontv]

I really, really hope epic submits fortnight via a different developers account.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

It is inevitable that Apple will lose this war. It's a shame that Apple will waste millions only to lose in court over something we already know. Facebook just proved that Apple is engaged in censorship by denying a Facebook app update that simply said "30% of fee goes to Apple". Stating the truth and showing customers transparency is now against app store rules. Where does this end?

This is going to be a watershed ruling when it occurs and I suggest that everyone dump their AAPL shares on the wind-up. A jury trial will not go in Apple's favor.

 

[TiggrToo]

Like I said.. we all eat what's served until somebody has the balls to stand up and say the food sucks.

Difference being Walmart dictates the wholesale price of the products they sell.

Not seeing Apple do the same.

 

[rafark]

Let’s see how many iPhones Apple sells with only 1st party Apple apps on them.

I’ve been saying this for years. An iPhone without apps is just a fancy and pretty piece of metal and glass. Apple needs third party developers more than they need Apple.

 

[TiggrToo]

It is inevitable that Apple will lose this war. It's a shame that Apple will waste millions only to lose in court over something we already know. Facebook just proved that Apple is engaged in censorship by denying a Facebook app update that simply said "30% of fee goes to Apple". Stating the truth and showing customers transparency is now against app store rules. Where does this end?

This is going to be a watershed ruling when it occurs and I suggest that everyone dump their AAPL shares on the wind-up. A jury trial will not go in Apple's favor.

Actually it's not inevitable in the slightest. It's certainly possible, maybe probable. But inevitable? Nope.

 

[idiiamots]

THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVE ROUTES TO REACH THE CUSTOMER ON IOS. THIS IS FORCED MONOPOLY.

What law says that there has to be? iOS can die due to market forces (like Windows Phone did) if developers abandon it because the fee is too high and users decide that lack of certain apps is reason enough to switch to alternative product.

 

[Abazigal]

It is inevitable that Apple will lose this war. It's a shame that Apple will waste millions only to lose in court over something we already know. Facebook just proved that Apple is engaged in censorship by denying a Facebook app update that simply said "30% of fee goes to Apple". Stating the truth and showing customers transparency is now against app store rules. Where does this end?

This is going to be a watershed ruling when it occurs and I suggest that everyone dump their AAPL shares on the wind-up. A jury trial will not go in Apple's favor.

It’s going to be incredibly ironic if a jury ended up ruling that 30% was not unreasonable and Apple could actually charge more if they wanted.

 

[ohmydays]

 

[Stromos]

There's a key difference between a Playstation and an iPhone. A Playstation is sold as specialist gaming hardware, whereas a phone has become essential to everyday modern life. Those are taken into consideration when antitrust proceedings take place. It's the reason Microsoft lost 20 years ago as the web became more critical

Yes and anyone who understands cyber security understands the benefits of a closed ecosystem. It’s a selling point of the device.

This alone will make Apple always win.

 

[m11rphy]

I'm sorry, did you install the Amazon App Store, Samsung Galaxy Store, GetJar, whatever Huawei store on your iPhone that "competes" with the Apple App Store? Oh wait...you can't. Therefore my point is valid. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVE ROUTES TO REACH THE CUSTOMER ON IOS. THIS IS FORCED MONOPOLY.

Epic didn't like Steam prices, so they made their own store, lowered the developers fees, and is taking Steam to the cleaners. You can't do that with Apple devices, you can't go make a competitor. Your stuck.

Congrats on ignoring everything I said in my post, Amazon App Store, Samsung Galaxy Store, GetJar, whatever Huawei store cant be installed on an Xbox or a playstation, or an LG webs TV or Nintendo Switch Or Samsung fridge, or a Fitbit or 100 of other products which offer apps. Non on these are a FORCED MONOPOLY.

 

[Michael Scrip]

It's only tied to your Apple ID because Apple made that requirement. It's an artificial limitation.

Applications are more than capable of processing a transaction without Apple acting as the middle man and taking a cut in the process.

ALL rules are artificial. Somebody just makes them up. And companies can choose to follow those rules... or not.

It's funny that Epic Games didn't have a problem with Apple's rules back when they were up on stage demoing Infinity Blade 10 years ago... or when they were making millions per month with Fortnite on iOS...

If Epic didn't like the rules... they shouldn't have played ball with Apple AT ALL.

But they did... and they eventually decided to disobey the rules... and they got hurt.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for Sweeney and Co.

 

[Altivec88]

It is inevitable that Apple will lose this war. It's a shame that Apple will waste millions only to lose in court over something we already know. Facebook just proved that Apple is engaged in censorship by denying a Facebook app update that simply said "30% of fee goes to Apple". Stating the truth and showing customers transparency is now against app store rules. Where does this end?

This is going to be a watershed ruling when it occurs and I suggest that everyone dump their AAPL shares on the wind-up. A jury trial will not go in Apple's favor.

Give me a break... That's not censorship. What company in their right mind allows merchants to state their business dealings. Are you saying that DELL should be allowed to put up a sign in Best Buy that says "if you buy our computer here, you give best buy 30%, please visit our website and d3ll.com and save". If Best Buy doesn't allow that sign, they are now censoring their merchants. That's ridiculous.

 

[m11rphy]

There's a key difference between a Playstation and an iPhone. A Playstation is sold as specialist gaming hardware, whereas a phone has become essential to everyday modern life. Those are taken into consideration when antitrust proceedings take place. It's the reason Microsoft lost 20 years ago as the web became more critical

A phone as a communication device may well be essential, being apple to play fortnite on said phone is not and never will be classed as essential

 

[osm70]

Give me a break... That's not censorship. What company in their right mind allows merchants to state their business dealings. Are you saying that DELL should be allowed to put up a sign in Best Buy that says "if you buy our computer here, you give best buy 30%, please visit our website and d3ll.com and save". If Best Buy doesn't allow that sign, they are now censoring their merchants. That's ridiculous.

Facebook's sign does not say that you can go to them to save, though. So, yes, DELL absolutely should be allowed to put up a sign that says "30% of your money goes to Best Buy".

 

[idiiamots]

So, open up the app store market.

Isn't it open already? We have a number of stores on the Android and Windows platforms. Consumers have an alternative to choosing an iOS device. If Fortnite isn't available on iOS and that's a deal breaker for them, that consumer will not chose iOS device. If the consumer doesn't care, then no harm is done. It's not like Apple's policy of locking down software distribution on their platform leads to higher app prices for Apple customers.

Let Facebook, Epic, other developers exercise their right not to develop for Apple platforms. Let the customers decide if that makes Apple products less appealing to them and vote with their wallets.

 

[m11rphy]

Facebook's sign does not say that you can go to them to save, though. So, yes, DELL absolutely should be allowed to put up a sign that says "30% of your money goes to Best Buy".

Then lets force all retailers to put stickers on their products stating how much of each product they sell go to them,.
Walmart would not let a company put a sign on any of the products they sell informing the customers that Walmart take X% of the price they are paying. Walmart would say this is not relevant. In fact these things are purposely kept quiet so different suppliers dont what % the other are getting. At least Apple is fair any everyone is paying 30% and the few times it forced to offer the big boys a reduction there is uproar on the forum. Yet because apple wont give Epic or FB a special deal as they dont add the same value to apple as Netflix and Amazon these other billion dollar companies and spitting their dummy out