Apple, the iPod, the Mac and the Future

[SpankWare]

Watch my father behind his Dell and that will be your answer.

FUD

Give me some specifics and don't blame Dell or the OS for a poorly configured system.

 

[jbooo]

Re:

I was, however, referring to people switching to OS X. That was the point of my initial question. The topic included licensing out OS X to PC makers and that's where I'm talking. In that case iLife would be a seperate purchase. I would bet it would be MUCH easier to get somebody to switch to OS X than it would be to Apple. Why? I can get the same spec hardware cheaper if I avoid Apple. Me personally? I don't really care for Apple hardware though I might if it was competitively priced. The MINIMUM buy in for a new user is $600 US which is for a base single core mac mini. I can build my own competitive box with more RAM and disk for $300. This is why there's a question about licensing OS X to PC makers.

So, do you feel more ripped off waisting $300.00 and countless hours FORCING Windows to work on it, or would you like something you can actually use out of the box to do real computing for 600?
I think it's cute you can tinker all you want, but is that why you built your $300 computer or would you like to actually use it to get something done?
And I am not talking about playing games... what a waste of a perfectly good computer... If it's games you want buy a Playstation or XBox 360 or something...

 

[SpankWare]

So, do you feel more ripped off waisting $300.00 and countless hours FORCING Windows to work on it, or would you like something you can actually use out of the box to do real computing for 600?
I think it's cute you can tinker all you want, but is that why you built your $300 computer or would you like to actually use it to get something done?
And I am not talking about playing games... what a waste of a perfectly good computer... If it's games you want buy a Playstation or XBox 360 or something...

Countless hours doing what? That $300 price tag was for a box that would run OS X and from what I've read does so without issue. But if I was installing Windows it would work right out of the box as well. Are you suggesting that all Windows installs take hours and forcing to work? I don't know about you but i've NEVER had that type of problem.

As for getting something done I would have a better box than a mini for half the price and again from what i've read it would run OS X perfectly. These are the things consumers want. Bang for the buck. You don't really get that with Apple hardware.

 

[jbooo]

Countless hours doing what? That $300 price tag was for a box that would run OS X and from what I've read does so without issue. But if I was installing Windows it would work right out of the box as well. Are you suggesting that all Windows installs take hours and forcing to work? I don't know about you but i've NEVER had that type of problem.

As for getting something done I would have a better box than a mini for half the price and again from what i've read it would run OS X perfectly. These are the things consumers want. Bang for the buck. You don't really get that with Apple hardware.

OK, so for $300.00 you get the items required to install OSX or X86 Windows. Thats it... oh yeah the satisfaction of doing it yourself... $600 buys you the machine, the OS, the iLife apps, a year warranty and technical support via web, email and phone in. Sounds like as a general user I would want the $600.00 system over the one you described. You don't get the OS, you don't get the warranty (90 day warranty on a motherboard? CPU? pleeeeaseeee!) you don't get the technicall support, you don't get ilife. Do the math and you just suckered yourself into a more expensive system that might go poof before you even install anything on it...

 

[cgc]

Don't get mad at me. I'm just quoting

Wonderful quote there Beavis...

 

[SpankWare]

OK, so for $300.00 you get the items required to install OSX or X86 Windows. Thats it... oh yeah the satisfaction of doing it yourself... $600 buys you the machine, the OS, the iLife apps, a year warranty and technical support via web, email and phone in. Sounds like as a general user I would want the $600.00 system over the one you described. You don't get the OS, you don't get the warranty (90 day warranty on a motherboard? CPU? pleeeeaseeee!) you don't get the technicall support, you don't get ilife. Do the math and you just suckered yourself into a more expensive system that might go poof before you even install anything on it...

The point here is that the general user KNOWS that Apple hardware is overpriced. Try to justify it all you want but at the end of the day the same components elsewhere ARE cheaper. I was comparing apples and oranges because I spec'd out a system with a gig of ram and a 160gig SATA drive (which isn't even possible on a mini). So then let's up the ante to (and i'm being generous here) $800 for the mini. That's a $500 diff. If I was to add iLife and OS X seperately i'm STILL well under that $800. Now let's say I'm a major manufacturer who pays FAR less for those components. I can then make an OS X capable machine for FAR less than the MINIMUM buying of $600 for a mini.

The consumer knows all of this already. This is why they don't buy Apple systems. I can get the same power for less. It's a fact of life.

 

[jbooo]

Re:

Countless hours doing what? That $300 price tag was for a box that would run OS X and from what I've read does so without issue. But if I was installing Windows it would work right out of the box as well. Are you suggesting that all Windows installs take hours and forcing to work? I don't know about you but i've NEVER had that type of problem.

As for getting something done I would have a better box than a mini for half the price and again from what i've read it would run OS X perfectly. These are the things consumers want. Bang for the buck. You don't really get that with Apple hardware.

What I was saying is from OEM manufacturers. you know the ones that use sub-standard parts to shave even more off the bottom line to make a buck off of the purchaser. ie: integrated graphics, integrated this and that. I am not saying Macs are the end all but this argument is stupid. I happen to believe that my mac is superior to x86 because of the "TOTAL PACKAGE" and now that Apple is on intel the situation is even sweeter because the architecture is now on an even playing field and the costs are not really an issue. Why else would pc makers be saying that the macbook is faster than the OEM suppliers running XP. How is this possible on equivalent hardware??? You guessed it... the OEM's cut cornrns on some parts to save money and the macbook is actually cheaper that the OEM's. How do you explain that???

 

[shawnce]

FUD

Give me some specifics and don't blame Dell or the OS for a poorly configured system.

Not really FUD if you see it almost every day (I personally do)... often the systems are configured as Dell installed and configured the OS (or MS installer configured).

 

[Arnaud]

Compare Apple of then with Apple of now and you'll figure why it failed. In short, Apple didn't offer anything that couldn't be had elsewhere except a name.

Ah ah, so funny, and so wrong

Ten years ago, it was System 7/System 8 against Windows/WindowsNT, with lots of pros and cons just like today, and there were as many people as now saying that one side was better than the other one, with as many "good" reasons... "My Wysiwyg works better", "my ADB works better than your serial", bla bla bla... Results: both systems are outdated, all former standards are gone anyway.

History always takes a turn of "it failed then, but it will work now" - depending on one's own interests.

 

[SpankWare]

What I was saying is from OEM manufacturers. you know the ones that use sub-standard parts to shave even more off the bottom line to make a buck off of the purchaser. ie: integrated graphics, integrated this and that. I am not saying Macs are the end all but this argument is stupid. I happen to believe that my mac is superior to x86 because of the "TOTAL PACKAGE" and now that Apple is on intel the situation is even sweeter because the architecture is now on an even playing field and the costs are not really an issue. Why else would pc makers be saying that the macbook is faster than the OEM suppliers running XP. How is this possible on equivalent hardware??? You guessed it... the OEM's cut cornrns on some parts to save money and the macbook is actually cheaper that the OEM's. How do you explain that???

Clearly the average consumer doesn't care about these cost cutting measures. If they did they'd all be running Apple hardware but they're not. Clearly while it's a big deal to you and some others it's clearly not what the majority feels. At the end of the day I know I would be willing to spend half as much for only a slightly less powerful machine. Half is a huge difference to me and it is for every other cost conscious consumer.

 

[jbooo]

Re:

The point here is that the general user KNOWS that Apple hardware is overpriced. Try to justify it all you want but at the end of the day the same components elsewhere ARE cheaper. I was comparing apples and oranges because I spec'd out a system with a gig of ram and a 160gig SATA drive (which isn't even possible on a mini). So then let's up the ante to (and i'm being generous here) $800 for the mini. That's a $500 diff. If I was to add iLife and OS X seperately i'm STILL well under that $800. Now let's say I'm a major manufacturer who pays FAR less for those components. I can then make an OS X capable machine for FAR less than the MINIMUM buying of $600 for a mini.

The consumer knows all of this already. This is why they don't buy Apple systems. I can get the same power for less. It's a fact of life.

So all you have proven to me is that you are still in the cloud of FUD presented by Microshaft you to death. You are only worried about the "bottom line", not the total package. Do yuou buy cars the same way? How about a BMW for the price of a Ford??? Get a grip and learn to enjoy your computing experience instead of playing games on a computer learn how toreally use it. Does Windows allow you the power of UNIX at your fingertips? Can youi run a web server from Win XP home edition? No you have to buy more to get less. Windows is about micro payments for life. 7 Versions of VISTA??? Are you kidding me?

 

[SpankWare]

Not really FUD if you see it almost every day (I personally do)... often the systems are configured as Dell installed and configured the OS (or MS installer configured).

So give me some examples. How does it break every day? I know it's not the OS because as I said I run it every day. Therefore it must be the configuration. Try fixing it and not spreading FUD.

 

[bilbo--baggins]

The point here is that the general user KNOWS that Apple hardware is overpriced.

I've heard the same said of the John Lewis department stores in the UK. People that are after cheap stuff see the prices in John Lewis and say 'rip off'. The truth is that John Lewis sell quality stuff as cheap as anyone else does. If other manufacturers used the same quality components, included all the same range of components, plus spent a little money on getting someone to come up with a tasteful yet practical design, I honestly don't think Apple computers would appear over priced. Obviously someone on a budget could probably come up with a cheaper way of doing it, because they don't have the costs of marketing, aftersales support and other general overheads. Anyone 'building' cheap computers as a business and selling them at this sort of price is never going to make enough profit to stay in business - I know I would rather buy a computer from a company that hopefully isn't going to just disappear overnight.

An besides, it's the experience you're paying for - the whole package: functional, nice looking, trouble free - and that applies to both the software and the hardware.

If Apple started licensing OS X so people could sell piles of cheap junk running it, then Apple's OS X would start to get a bad repuation. Obviously, even on a pile of cheap junk it would still probably look and work better than Windows XP, but that wouldn't be hard would it?

 

[mackeeper]

My friend and I both think that everybody should own a Mac at some point in their life, especially those gross PC users. Some may find the Mac experience to be overrated, but at least they gave it a shot.

I'm frankly sick and tired of my roomates dissing Macs. I want to smash their giant (and I mean HUGE) CPUs over their heads.

 

[SpankWare]

So all you have proven to me is that you are still in the cloud of FUD presented by Microshaft you to death. You are only worried about the "bottom line", not the total package. Do yuou buy cars the same way? How about a BMW for the price of a Ford??? Get a grip and learn to enjoy your computing experience instead of playing games on a computer learn how toreally use it. Does Windows allow you the power of UNIX at your fingertips? Can youi run a web server from Win XP home edition? No you have to buy more to get less. Windows is about micro payments for life. 7 Versions of VISTA??? Are you kidding me?

Why is it when somebody presents a contrasting opinion you assume they're Windows users? I run more than Windows on a daily basis. I also use Linux, Solaris and OS X on a daily basis. Try not to make this about Windows.

And yeah at the end of the day it's the bottom line. If I can get a BMW for the price of a Ford I think I've managed to get a good deal. As long as Consumer Reports tells me it's reliable I'll buy it.

As for games I'm sorry I don't play them. I might play F1 Challenge occasionally but that's VERY infrequent. Don't try to label me as some winpunk. As a software developer and former IT manager I'm well aware how to harness the power of my machine.

Power of Unix? I don't need Windows for UNIX. That's what I have my UNIX systems for. But I must say that's what I love the most about OS X. The underlying core.

Vista is a joke and I have no plans to use it personally only professionally.

Try again.

 

[YoNeX]

OK, so for $300.00 you get the items required to install OSX or X86 Windows. Thats it... oh yeah the satisfaction of doing it yourself... $600 buys you the machine, the OS, the iLife apps, a year warranty and technical support via web, email and phone in. Sounds like as a general user I would want the $600.00 system over the one you described. You don't get the OS, you don't get the warranty (90 day warranty on a motherboard? CPU? pleeeeaseeee!) you don't get the technicall support, you don't get ilife. Do the math and you just suckered yourself into a more expensive system that might go poof before you even install anything on it...

Sorry but that is just not correct. Personally having built my own computer for the first time on my own, its not at hard as many people make it seems. Secondly for $300 buys you just hadware. You can get the OS OEM for windows for about 140 (Pro). So thats $440. Most of the iLife apps if not all has a Windows Open Source alternative. So you don't have to spend money on it. The support issue is pure FUD. You get support for each part you buy. Motherboards typically have ATLEAST 1 year warranty. CPU? 3 Years warranty. Ram? Atleast 1 year. Every part you buy atleast has some form of warranty, typically atleast 1 year. Saying otherwise is pure FUD. Additionally the more reputiable parts manufacturer have phone support, forums, and the tons of support from 3rd party forums. So to say you get no support is utter bs.

If you want to say fined-tuned integration between OS and hardware (engineer tweeking) for stability, thats fine. Go with the Mac. If you want customization and DIY, go with Windows / Linux.

Every OS has its own purpose, each OS has its benefit over the other. For the record, I've seen OS X choked horribly when I try to run certain apps, install drivers, etc. Windows typically chokes for me when I try to do network stuff and for the record, rarely do I get the typical Windows crashed that many people described. The only time I got it was when I was messing around at the kernel level, but that is already expected to crash. Linux also has some issues, a couple of times our CS lab full of Linux crashed, so no OS is perfect.

Props for Whistleway for clarifying things.

 

[jbooo]

Re:

So give me some examples. How does it break every day? I know it's not the OS because as I said I run it every day. Therefore it must be the configuration. Try fixing it and not spreading FUD.

NO, how about YOU give US some examples of why YOU think it's FUD. Most mac users ARE windows switchers, so if so many of us have switched there was more of a reason than "hey I got a bunch of money, I think I will go waste it on a MAC" mentality. I used windows and macs at the same time. I am an MCSE certfied Network Engineer. I use both everyday, but, when I work on my Windows machine I find myself getting frustrated when my computer freezes (computer is imaged from my work place for my field of work, meaning it has ONLY the programs I need to do my job), but when I use my mac at home I am delighted that it has NEVER crashed and I don't have to re-boot it constantly just to get some work done. I can burn a DVD, while rendering in the background, while I surf and write emails and nothing "BAD" happens. That in itself is priceless, but more so worthy of my time...
I rest my case

 

[SpankWare]

NO, how about YOU give US some examples of why YOU think it's FUD. Most mac users ARE windows switchers, so if so many of us have switched there was more of a reason than "hey I got a bunch of money, I think I will go waste it on a MAC" mentality. I used windows and macs at the same time. I am an MCSE certfied Network Engineer. I use both everyday, but, when I work on my Windows machine I find myself getting frustrated when my computer freezes (computer is imaged from my work place for my field of work, meaning it has ONLY the programs I need to do my job), but when I use my mac at home I am delighted that it has NEVER crashed and I don't have to re-boot it constantly just to get some work done. I can burn a DVD, while rendering in the background, while I surf and write emails and nothing "BAD" happens. That in itself is priceless, but more so worthy of my time...
I rest my case

Sounds like you need to reconsider that MCSE. My four year old has never crashed her XP machine and you can probably guess that a four year old would do some pretty messed up stuff to a computer.

Seriously though you should review your situation with your IT department. You must be running a poor configuration of the OS or the software they have selected for business is the problem. I am currently using a HP machine with Windows XP SP2. I currently have about 12 apps open which have been open for the past month. I have had no crashes and I can guarantee I won't have any crashes. I occasionally reboot due to power issues in the building or patch installation. Other than that my machine runs solid. I can say the same for each machine in my development lab, at home, etc.

It shocks me that you think a Windows PC couldn't burn a DVD and render whatever (you didn't specify) or that you couldn't surf and write an email. I do WAY more than that on a dialy basis and I've never had a problem.

So to answer your question, I think it's FUD because I see a LOT of machines running every day without a crash. I can't even recall the last time I saw a WIndows machine actually crash. So yeah, I say it's FUD.

 

[thegreatunknown]

woah, lovely, a stupid internet arguement. why would I buy mac hardware? so I don't have to pay a small amount for an OS and then pay lots for add on third-party bull that is not plug-in as M$ claims it to be. I'm paying for smoothness. I'm paying for ease. more for the buck isn't actually what everybody thinks. if it costs me a few dollars more to reduce hours of headache, I'm all in.

 

[jbooo]

Sounds like you need to reconsider that MCSE. My four year old has never crashed her XP machine and you can probably guess that a four year old would do some pretty messed up stuff to a computer.

Seriously though you should review your situation with your IT department. You must be running a poor configuration of the OS or the software they have selected for business is the problem. I am currently using a HP machine with Windows XP SP2. I currently have about 12 apps open which have been open for the past month. I have had no crashes and I can guarantee I won't have any crashes. I occasionally reboot due to power issues in the building or patch installation. Other than that my machine runs solid. I can say the same for each machine in my development lab, at home, etc.

It shocks me that you think a Windows PC couldn't burn a DVD and render whatever (you didn't specify) or that you couldn't surf and write an email. I do WAY more than that on a dialy basis and I've never had a problem.

So to answer your question, I think it's FUD because I see a LOT of machines running every day without a crash. I can't even recall the last time I saw a WIndows machine actually crash. So yeah, I say it's FUD.

I came in here to voice my opinions not argue. I have not tried to demean you by refering to my 4 year old bieng able to use a computer without crashing it. I can say that I have a nephew that crashews his computer ALL the time, constantly asking me to "fix" it for him. I did not insult your profession either so at this point I am bowing out of the discussion under these terms. When you can discuss this matter without taking it personal I would be delighted to discuss it further with you.

 

[SpankWare]

woah, lovely, a stupid internet arguement. why would I buy mac hardware? so I don't have to pay a small amount for an OS and then pay lots for add on third-party bull that is not plug-in as M$ claims it to be. I'm paying for smoothness. I'm paying for ease. more for the buck isn't actually what everybody thinks. if it costs me a few dollars more to reduce hours of headache, I'm all in.

See this is what I don't get. I've never once had a difficult time with a Windows machine. I should again remind anybody reading this that I'm not a Windows fanboy. I run what I need for a particular job. Sometimes that Windows and sometimes it's not. I have a mac, i run OS X.

That said I have never had a hard time with a Windows machine. Everything works just as smooth as a Mac. I really dig OS X. I think it's a great OS and if I had my druthers it would be my main OS. I can't however justify spending that kind of money on a machine when I can get more for less anywhere else. As a result my "big" box runs Linux. And just for the record my Linux is just as smooth as my OS X. Go figure.

 

[SpankWare]

I came in here to voice my opinions not argue. I have not tried to demean you by refering to my 4 year old bieng able to use a computer without crashing it. I can say that I have a nephew that crashews his computer ALL the time, constantly asking me to "fix" it for him. I did not insult your profession either so at this point I am bowing out of the discussion under these terms. When you can discuss this matter without taking it personal I would be delighted to discuss it further with you.

I'm sorry I offended you but having been an IT manager that's now moved on to software development I just have a really hard time buying into the idea of an MCSE (legitmate, not paper ... I gave you credit for that) that can't have a stable Windows PC. The reference to my four year old isn't an insult but more of a statement of reliability. She uses her PC freely without my supervision and with the exception of changing CD's or installing updates I let her do what she wants. It doesn't crash and that says a LOT about the reliability of the system.

 

[zac4mac]

Sorry for the "personal attack" but WTF Spankware... are you getting a commision on the term FUD? You on a crusade to save windoze from slander???

Windoze sux. period. I use it every day and it still sux. 3.11/95/98/ME/NT3/NT4-W2K/NT5-XP have all been inferior copies of an elegant OS and I think you know what that one is.

Apple is strong now, with a lot of brand recognition it needs to capitalize on.
I won't say things about stability, I haven't seen a BSOD in a couple of years; about the time I switched to W2K Pro. Last one I recall was on NT. It' still just a clunky, blocky no-class OS. Kinda like walking away from a Jag and stepping up to a Scion(sorry for the new car comparison)

 

[wkhahn]

Creative Advertising

...

The only thing I wish, is that they could get the word out about how fantastic OSX is....we know the iPod and iTunes is great....how about some creative ads telling the windows world what they're missing out on.

Apple is gonna need to step it up if they want to go forward. Intel is not exciting to 90% of people. iPods will, or have reached their peak ect..

We'll see.

How about this for creative advertising. Make an advanced iPod setting in iTunes for windows that would change the PC bios to boot from and attached external harddrive(iPod).It would leave the rest of the boot sequence in tact (CD, hard drive..) Call it "Boot Mac OSX". Reboot your PC and you get a Mac. The iPod would have a special build of OSX for "promotional" purposes. You could not save any work done to your iPod, but OSX would otherwise be full featured. Spotlight, Auotmator, Expose. It could look to the ipod for music and photos to fill iTunes and iPhoto. Once you start to shut down OSX you would get a message like, "Full Featured OSX available at you Apple Store" and it would set the bios back. Just a thought, and may have been mentioned before.

 

[thegreatunknown]

ok ok I'll keep playing. this is kinda fun. I hear ya. you are a professional with computers. thats exactly why your opinion is hard to take. put an 80 year old grandma in front of a windows machine when 12 different warnings and popups come flying up at her about viruses, updates, something here needs to be installed, something there needs to be checked and the old lady will wig out and not know what to do. therefore after slamming buttons the machine will turn to the blue screen of death. I too use all three (linux, window, OS X) and I too will claim with the right knowledge the OS's can be used very smoothly. the problem is the majority of people have no idea what is going on with a computer let alone what an OS is!

oh yea I would buy the mini for the entertainment center aspects, that being the wireless streaming of video and music. not for its computing capabilities.

enjoy.