Apple, the iPod, the Mac and the Future

[SpankWare]

Sorry for the "personal attack" but WTF Spankware... are you getting a commision on the term FUD? You on a crusade to save windoze from slander???

Windoze sux. period. I use it every day and it still sux. 3.11/95/98/ME/NT3/NT4-W2K/NT5-XP have all been inferior copies of an elegant OS and I think you know what that one is.

Apple is strong now, with a lot of brand recognition it needs to capitalize on.
I won't say things about stability, I haven't seen a BSOD in a couple of years; about the time I switched to W2K Pro. Last one I recall was on NT. It' still just a clunky, blocky no-class OS. Kinda like walking away from a Jag and stepping up to a Scion(sorry for the new car comparison)

ZZZzzzzz ...... Wow that was boring. If you would bother to read I never brought up Windows originally. That was done by others. I did defend it but the original point of all this was to discuss OS X licensing and how do you get non OS X users to make the switch. It was the zealots that made this OS X vs. Windows. Say what you want about it sucking but it still has market share and there are millions of users who disagree. That being said I still like OS X and would LOVE for them to license it. I need the OS not the hardware.

 

[Counter]

In short, because Apple is a corporation.

Great documentary.

As cool as Apple are (usually), bottom line is still: $$$$

 

[jbooo]

Re:

I'm sorry I offended you but having been an IT manager that's now moved on to software development I just have a really hard time buying into the idea of an MCSE (legitmate, not paper ... I gave you credit for that) that can't have a stable Windows PC. The reference to my four year old isn't an insult but more of a statement of reliability. She uses her PC freely without my supervision and with the exception of changing CD's or installing updates I let her do what she wants. It doesn't crash and that says a LOT about the reliability of the system.

I appreciate your appologie but again you are obviously not here to discuss but rather defend your choice. It is obvious, anyone willing to discuss would not discount the point of view of another just because thier 4 year old has Never crashed her (or your) COMPUTER. If you are really interested you would accept that not everyone is going to or has had your experience when it comes to computing, but I refesu to believe off of your word only that XP does'nt crash when thousands or possibly millions of other users beg to differ. If I can crash a computer so can someone else. I have however never crashed my mac, maybe I am just lucky... but still everyone has a pont of view and it is ot always the same as our own... just a little prospective. And by the way I am not an IT guy, I design the networks for companies such as qwest, covad etc. So yes I have an education and I know how to use computers. more than one or two os's just like you...
And one more thing... just because I am an MCSE doesn't give me the right to make changes to an imaged computer. I may be the boss but I use the tools given to me. An MCSE certification isn't your average everyday user either so to say that I should know how to fix my machine just proves my point even more, users want a machine they can use with minimal intervention. If I want to send email to my mother in law I don't want to have to waste time (many hours?) just to fix a problem so I can send email to someone...

 

[Macky-Mac]

I for one would ove to see Mac OS X's market share rise to about 20%.

First of all more punch again M$ monopoly is a good thing
Second, a lot more Mac-techs could get jobs
Third: More Macs mean more happy people. The world would simply be a better place.

fourth (and more important to me!); more software would be written for Mac OS meaning we wouldnt have so much "we have to keep windows because autocad (or whatever) doesnt run on Macs"

 

[kresh]

Sounds like you need to reconsider that MCSE. My four year old has never crashed her XP machine and you can probably guess that a four year old would do some pretty messed up stuff to a computer.

I also have children. I have five. I will concede that you obviously know more about computers than I do. You probably could correct any issue that pops up, so your four year old can have free reign.

My wife and I thought that it would be really nice if each of our home schooled children had their own computer. Not to play games and such, but for internet access and to make sure they stayed current in the digital age.

We bought each of them a Dell. It was a horrible experience for me. Almost every single day one of my kids came to me "Dad my computer is not working again". Sometimes I could fix it, sometimes I called friends for help. Several times a month we reformatted a drive and reinstalled the operating system. (Not on each machine).

In March of 2005 I bought a Mac Mini based on a recommendation from a friend. I loved the Machine. My wife would not stay off of it. She went literally crazy with the picture stuff and making these DVD's to send to grandparents, ect...

Over the next several months we replaced the Dell machines with old and outdated iMac DV's. Two are 450Mhz(Indigo), and three are 500Mhz (Snow) machines. I purchased a 5 user license of Tiger.

We sold the Dells on eBay and bought the iMacs on eBay. Including the cost of Tiger, we just about broke even.

I know I'm not the typical switcher. Apple only sold me a $499.99 Mac Mini and a $199.99 license of OSX. They didn't make a lot of money on me so far. But they will.

I have not had a single child of mine come to me in many, many months telling me their computer is not working.

It's kind of esoteric sounding, but for me it really does "Just Work".

edit: just curious. Is OS X pronounced: OS "ex" or OS 10

 

[ScubaDuc]

Apple has . .....Apple's hardware is no longer appreciably more expensive than PC counterparts, but the quality is head-and-shoulders above the rest. ...

It's a good day to be among the Mac Faithful...

Z

Really? I thought we could at least be honest with ourselves... Apple's harware is not as troble free as it used to be. Read the complaints in other threads

As for the hardware, does 32 mb video card ring a bell? Hardly superior... Look at the ibook: you could get a dual core Dull for the same kind of money Not that I would really want to but I am intellectually honest enough to admit it

 

[nxent]

Why the hell do they need to keep growing? They are making healthy profits ($250 million last time i saw), so why not just make quality and innovative hardware and software and stick with your market share? Is it because the board members are a bunch of greedy bastards? Probably.

geez guy, calm down. keep in mind, it's a business. apple went with that very strategey 20 years ago by not licensing its OS and it nearly took them out. innovative hardware and software require R and D, and funding from for comes from increased sales. and we all like to see innovative products from apple. now i'm not saying i want apple to license it's os out (and risk becoming a msoft), but you can't shun growth because of fear.

 

[amateurmacfreak]

Growth and Spread of Apple Comps = good
But imo Apple on other hardware = bad

Apple has always had so much control over their hardware which to be seems to make the spread of innovation be more widespread. Anyone get what I mean?

 

[strydr]

Never. I can't say i've ever seen this "error 47" you mention. Unknown errors i've seen but hey that would be application specific.

I use Windows daily and I personally don't have a single problem with the OS. Same for Linux, Solaris, and OS X. People who suggest otherwise deal in FUD. I deal in facts.

OK Spank,
Here's my two cents. I too, use OSX, XP, and Linux. I have also spent most of my adult life working in various help desk positions. Out of the box (and after several security updates, including SP2), XP is a good OS. The problem is, most users (read, not you or I) can do more harm to their XP load, than a average user on OSX does. Personally, my XP systems are rock solid. I have taken my own precautions to make this a reality. My XP boxes are not used to surf the internet. I do not install random software (without first taking a OS snapshot) on my XP boxes. On the other hand, my powerbook needs no such precautions. I browse suspect websites, download and install whatever software I want, and have only had to reinstall OSX twice (both times I royally screwed up things- I'd also like to point out that if I didn't have root access, I could not have caused these problems).
You mention App. specific errors. How many of these lock the entire XP up?? Whenever I have a App. cause problems in OSX, I just force quit it, and I'm right back where I was before I launched the App. Just the other day, I was trying to "End Task". in XP. It took 20+ times telling Windows to quit the App, before it actually did. This is a productivity loss to the user. They spent 10 min. before calling me over- this ='s a 30 min. productivity loss for that user.
All in all, I would rather my mom use a Mac than a PC based solely on my availability for tech support. In fact, I have offered free tech support to any of my friends who switch to OSX. All those poeple that have switched, no longer need my support services (well, very rarely).

 

[YoNeX]

I also have children. I have five. I will concede that you obviously know more about computers than I do. You probably could correct any issue that pops up, so your four year old can have free reign.

My wife and I thought that it would be really nice if each of our home schooled children had their own computer. Not to play games and such, but for internet access and to make sure they stayed current in the digital age.

We bought each of them a Dell. It was a horrible experience for me. Almost every single day one of my kids came to me "Dad my computer is not working again". Sometimes I could fix it, sometimes I called friends for help. Several times a month we reformatted a drive and reinstalled the operating system. (Not on each machine).

In March of 2005 I bought a Mac Mini based on a recommendation from a friend. I loved the Machine. My wife would not stay off of it. She went literally crazy with the picture stuff and making these DVD's to send to grandparents, ect...

Over the next several months we replaced the Dell machines with old and outdated iMac DV's. Two are 450Mhz(Indigo), and three are 500Mhz (Snow) machines. I purchased a 5 user license of Tiger.

We sold the Dells on eBay and bought the iMacs on eBay. Including the cost of Tiger, we just about broke even.

I know I'm not the typical switcher. Apple only sold me a $499.99 Mac Mini and a $199.99 license of OSX. They didn't make a lot of money on me so far. But they will.

I have not had a single child of mine come to me in many, many months telling me their computer is not working.

It's kind of esoteric sounding, but for me it really does "Just Work".

edit: just curious. Is OS X pronounced: OS "ex" or OS 10

I too have seen computers like this. I've seen adware/spyware count up in the thousands. But the easiest solution is just lock down the computer by giving them a Limited Access account instead of Admin and install a non-Norton antivirus and MS Antispyware and you should be set. If it gets really bad, i don't bother using tools, I just go straight to reformatting.

 

[StarbucksSam]

Why the hell do they need to keep growing? They are making healthy profits ($250 million last time i saw), so why not just make quality and innovative hardware and software and stick with your market share? Is it because the board members are a bunch of greedy bastards? Probably.

Yah, god forbid a company try to be successful. Capitalism is a terrible being.

 

[strydr]

The point here is that the general user KNOWS that Apple hardware is overpriced. Try to justify it all you want but at the end of the day the same components elsewhere ARE cheaper. I was comparing apples and oranges because I spec'd out a system with a gig of ram and a 160gig SATA drive (which isn't even possible on a mini). So then let's up the ante to (and i'm being generous here) $800 for the mini. That's a $500 diff. If I was to add iLife and OS X seperately i'm STILL well under that $800. Now let's say I'm a major manufacturer who pays FAR less for those components. I can then make an OS X capable machine for FAR less than the MINIMUM buying of $600 for a mini.

The consumer knows all of this already. This is why they don't buy Apple systems. I can get the same power for less. It's a fact of life.

Spank,
the "average user" knows nothing about building a budget PC. The average user looks at price as the deciding factor. This is why Dell has the market share it does. Most of my friends are "average users". They are terrified of even opening up their PC. Sure you can build a comperable system for less. Part of the problem is, you are only looking at the "initial buy in" cost. Compare the costs over 3 years, and I bet (again, for the average user, not you or I) the PC costs them more that to have bought a Mac. At my previous employ, we used to charge $150 to reload/fix a broken Win. install. Some customers came back 1-2 times a year to fix. This all adds up to a higher final cost. Look at the school districts that have debated over iBooks and PC-based laptops. They all agree (well, their IT dept. does) that the total cost over lifetime is less for the Mac.

 

[andrew050703]

edit: just curious. Is OS X pronounced: OS "ex" or OS 10

personally i say 'os ex' - so does steve jobs sometimes; it just refers to everything after os9, just omitting the version.

Anyway, to the matter in hand; if OSX goes on PCs will we not get the 'big companies have enough money; i'll just copy my friend's OS X' mentality creeping in as so many people have for MS? Personally, I'm not a fan of MS but wouldn't like to see the same thing happening to Apple.

I guess I'd just prefer 10.5 to be able to run XP apps without having to go through XP (roll out darwine?). Apple will seriously have to do something about the anti-mac view from the windows techies - showed my new mbp with mighty mouse to a software engineer friend of mine, and he dismissed it out of hand because "I don't like macs - they only have one mouse button". That kind of thing really jibes - surely he could at least wait for me to explain...

 

[FF_productions]

Spank,
the "average user" knows nothing about building a budget PC. The average user looks at price as the deciding factor. This is why Dell has the market share it does. Most of my friends are "average users". They are terrified of even opening up their PC. Sure you can build a comperable system for less. Part of the problem is, you are only looking at the "initial buy in" cost. Compare the costs over 3 years, and I bet (again, for the average user, not you or I) the PC costs them more that to have bought a Mac. At my previous employ, we used to charge $150 to reload/fix a broken Win. install. Some customers came back 1-2 times a year to fix. This all adds up to a higher final cost. Look at the school districts that have debated over iBooks and PC-based laptops. They all agree (well, their IT dept. does) that the total cost over lifetime is less for the Mac.

Couldn't agree with you more...Slowly, windows users will start to see the light, and will soon switch to the Mac because they'll realize how stable OSX is. I'm getting sick of fixing all my friends pcs's and checking viruses and running in safe mode, etc. (Last night I had to fix my friends pc for about 2 hours for some stupid reason)

Macs are so simple to use, the only reason people pass them by is because of the price tag and the ads in the papers/t.v. "Oh would you look at that, it's a 300 dollar dell!! Pentium Processor!! FREE LCD MONITOR! OH! It runs WINDOWS XP TOO!!"

Then the mac ad comes up talking about the switch to intel "What's A Mac?"
By the time all the computers are transitioned to INTEL, I'm expecting some advertisements out of Apple, or else they will continue to be forgotten by the average customer.

 

[strydr]

I too have seen computers like this. I've seen adware/spyware count up in the thousands. But the easiest solution is just lock down the computer by giving them a Limited Access account instead of Admin and install a non-Norton antivirus and MS Antispyware and you should be set. If it gets really bad, i don't bother using tools, I just go straight to reformatting.

The only problem I have with this, is now your user needs you every time they need to install a app. I have users just like this. They load up there system with "free" games from the internet, and kill their PC (IE hijacking, spyware, etc...). So, I reformat, and reinstall their OS, and lock them down (no admin rights). Now, I get calls all the time from them, "can you please install a printer for me?", "I want to play my game, can you re-install it for me?". This gets way old.

 

[Photorun]

ZZZzzzzz ...... Wow that was boring. If you would bother to read I never brought up Windows originally. That was done by others. I did defend it but the original point of all this was to discuss OS X licensing and how do you get non OS X users to make the switch. It was the zealots that made this OS X vs. Windows. Say what you want about it sucking but it still has market share and there are millions of users who disagree. That being said I still like OS X and would LOVE for them to license it. I need the OS not the hardware.

Thanks for your opinion, it's noted, and it's noted opinions are like body openings of which you make a strong connection. I do know it takes the college I work at 11 IT people to maintain 4200 peecees and only 1 IT person to maintain 1800 Macs, and that those Macs are often in service for four, sometimes five years and the Dull (Dells) are usually garbage by the third year or made into paperweights... of course, that's if they're not DOA, about one in four are DOA where as maybe one in 20 Macs. So you're either disingenous, ill-informed, or a just a troll who's not dealing with the real world.

 

[jbooo]

RE: Total Cost of Ownership

Yeah it's like gambling, only a few bucks to get "in" on the game, but when they go to cash out they realize they owe thousands of dollars to the "house"

sad but true...
Oh look honey, I can get a dell for 500.00 bucks (read the fine print, it's the slowest worst graphics, integrated this and that for 500.00) if you want to get something on par to Mac the price just skyrocketed... unless you build it yourself... but still you have to buy the software. Price out ALL the software that comes pre-installed on the mac and compare it to software that you would have to buy for the windows machine and the price just scares most to the point of tracking down free-ware (wich exists on the mac platform as well)

oh, and don't give me the "i can get an oem copy of windows xp for 140.00, the mac retail (read unrestricted) is only 99.00. Or free if purchasing a new computer

 

[IJ Reilly]

Compare Apple of then with Apple of now and you'll figure why it failed. In short, Apple didn't offer anything that couldn't be had elsewhere except a name.

A gross over-simplification. As I said before, no model for successful cloning exists. Companies rarely create competitors for their own products, for obvious reasons.

 

[iGuy]

Ten !!

just curious. Is OS X pronounced: OS "ex" or OS 10

it is pronounced Oh Es TEN (as in the number) it followed OS 9

Apple simply used the roman numeral (a capital letter X) to imply that the new OS was more than just than just a minor update.

For those who would dispute this, and there's always a few pour, uneducated souls, Steve Jobs himself has always referred to it publically as OS TEN.

~iGuy

 

[bretm]

Why the hell do they need to keep growing? They are making healthy profits ($250 million last time i saw), so why not just make quality and innovative hardware and software and stick with your market share? Is it because the board members are a bunch of greedy bastards? Probably.

How old are you, 13?

 

[strydr]

ZZZzzzzz ...... Wow that was boring. If you would bother to read I never brought up Windows originally. That was done by others. I did defend it but the original point of all this was to discuss OS X licensing and how do you get non OS X users to make the switch. It was the zealots that made this OS X vs. Windows. Say what you want about it sucking but it still has market share and there are millions of users who disagree. That being said I still like OS X and would LOVE for them to license it. I need the OS not the hardware.

OK, Sorry I was ranting off topic.
so how do we get users to switch? Well, start off with making the cheapist mac ever (I mean the cost$$). Mac Mini. Now, for a few $$'s more than replacing your dead Dell(not picking on Dell, it could be a HP, or a Gateway machine), you buy a mini. Hook it up to your old monitor, mouse and keyboard. That was the point of the Mini, reuse some old parts, upgrade the important part, the CPU. Next, Apple needs to advertise more. Most people don't know about their choices, so they end up with another XP box (usually from the same vendor their old system was from, unless they were very dissatasfied with the previous system). I like the idea of a "Live" version of OSX that could be run from a iPod. Once they get the virtualization working (and we can run native Windows apps. in a window of OSX), the excuse of needing XP to run a app (I have a Dell laptop so I can run PC Anywhere) goes out the window. That's a start.

 

[bretm]

it is pronounced Oh Es TEN (as in the number) it followed OS 9

Apple simply used the roman numeral (a capital letter X) to imply that the new OS was more than just than just a minor update.

For those who would dispute this, and there's always a few pour, uneducated souls, Steve Jobs himself has always referred to it publically as OS TEN.

~iGuy

You mean POOR uneducated souls, right? And also, "publicly" would be correct spelling. So much for education.

 

[bretm]

Thanks for your opinion, it's noted, and it's noted opinions are like body openings of which you make a strong connection. I do know it takes the college I work at 11 IT people to maintain 4200 peecees and only 1 IT person to maintain 1800 Macs, and that those Macs are often in service for four, sometimes five years and the Dull (Dells) are usually garbage by the third year or made into paperweights... of course, that's if they're not DOA, about one in four are DOA where as maybe one in 20 Macs. So you're either disingenous, ill-informed, or a just a troll who's not dealing with the real world.

5% of your macs come DOA???!!!!!! 25% of your Dells come in DOA? What Pawn shop does your school do it's purchasing at?

Maybe you don't know what you're saying. DOA means dead on arrival. A computer can't be DOA after 3 years.

 

[SpankWare]

Thanks for your opinion, it's noted, and it's noted opinions are like body openings of which you make a strong connection. I do know it takes the college I work at 11 IT people to maintain 4200 peecees and only 1 IT person to maintain 1800 Macs, and that those Macs are often in service for four, sometimes five years and the Dull (Dells) are usually garbage by the third year or made into paperweights... of course, that's if they're not DOA, about one in four are DOA where as maybe one in 20 Macs. So you're either disingenous, ill-informed, or a just a troll who's not dealing with the real world.

I know all about the real world and I don't have to give my pedigree to prove it. What everybody seems to keep missing is I'm not claiming to be pro Windows or pro Dell or Pro anything. I use the tools to get the job done. What I did bring up was that if Apple was to license OS X to other manufacturers there would have to be a good argument to switch. The comments seen earlier made vague references to OS X's superiority and how people would switch after merely seeing it and talk of more advertising for the OS itself. The point I was trying to make is it will take a good argument in advertising to get existing Windows customers to switch to licensed OS X on their existing equipment. On a regular basis many people here talk about how OS X is far better than Windows but in order to get a licensed OS X to succeed your advertising would have to give legitimate validated reasons why it's a better choice. I never brought up Windows and I didn't start comparing OS X to Windows. I like OS X and I think it's a great OS. However, in order to successfully market it you'll have to give really good reasons why and that's what I asked for. Unfortunately others made it into a Windows vs. OS X argument.

I like OS X and I want to run OS X. I don't care about Apple hardware because I can get a better system for less either from another manufacturer or building it myself. This is why I was discussing the licensing of OS X. I know I would buy it but in order for this argument of "once they try it they'll switch because windows is crap" will have to be justified and I was just curious what if anything people could use to justify it.

 

[ingenious]

I for one would ove to see Mac OS X's market share rise to about 20%.

First of all more punch again M$ monopoly is a good thing
Second, a lot more Mac-techs could get jobs
Third: More Macs mean more happy people. The world would simply be a better place.

Yeah, Apple's market share needs to be higher, but we want them to continue to innovate, so we don't want it to be like M$'s. Nor do we want M$'s to be at where it is.