Apple, the iPod, the Mac and the Future

[seand]

One can't argue viruses because "if you build it they will come." The only reason Macs are not riddled with viruses now is because there's not much of a point. Going forward that could easily change.

This is from a while back, but I thought I'd mention it, as it seems to be a common thought - it's not quite true... OS X and other UNIX based operating systems have a better security and user model than XP (or 9x, which basically forces you to be root, all the time). It is possible to have a limited access user in XP, but you can't as easily control exactly what they can do or edit access permissions, and as far as I know you have to log out and log in again (or switch user) to do anything as a root. This and the way applications are often written for Windows mean it's less practical to use administrator accounts only for administrative tasks. It is also still possible to mess up the system with limited access.
Here's an interesting, if old, article on why even if every system were UNIX based, we wouldn't have the same problem we do with Windows.

 

[thegreatunknown]

What I would like to know is this: What does OS X offer over Windows to the common user? I know why I like OS X but many here seem to think it's the end all be all. So why should the average computer user want to switch to OS X?

not sure what your definition of "never" is.

anyway. you have succeeded to start an arguement. by the looks of it, its not the first time. apple software and apple hardware work together seemlessly. for the few people that take the time to build their own computer even less of them could build a system that worked as flawless with apple software.

continue.

 

[SpankWare]

OK, Sorry I was ranting off topic.
so how do we get users to switch? Well, start off with making the cheapist mac ever (I mean the cost$$). Mac Mini. Now, for a few $$'s more than replacing your dead Dell(not picking on Dell, it could be a HP, or a Gateway machine), you buy a mini. Hook it up to your old monitor, mouse and keyboard. That was the point of the Mini, reuse some old parts, upgrade the important part, the CPU. Next, Apple needs to advertise more. Most people don't know about their choices, so they end up with another XP box (usually from the same vendor their old system was from, unless they were very dissatasfied with the previous system). I like the idea of a "Live" version of OSX that could be run from a iPod. Once they get the virtualization working (and we can run native Windows apps. in a window of OSX), the excuse of needing XP to run a app (I have a Dell laptop so I can run PC Anywhere) goes out the window. That's a start.

And that almost worked for me. I was all set to get a mini. I didn't care for the form factor i just wanted an economical buy in for a modern day Mac (i currently have aged iMacs). But I knew that we'd be getting Intel chips so I waited. Finally the announcement came and I was ready to pull the trigger despite the fact that a system configured how I wanted would be more than I would like to spend. Then I find out they jacked up the price another $100 which blew my buy in even higher. At that point I was priced out of the market because I just couldn't justify spending that much money for the power when I could easily do it for less. As an exercise I priced out what I could live with in PC parts that are compatible with OS X. I spec'd out a intel board and CPU (celeron but good enough) with a gig of ram, 160gig SATA drive and a DVD burner. All that with case was $300. The minimum buy in on a mini is 600, configured as I want it's around 800 to 850. If I can achieve what I want for 300 then it doesn't make sense to go with the mini. I would LOVE for them to license out OS X and I would support it myself. That would be something nice. Unfortunately until then i'm stuck because Apple priced me out of their hardware. (For the record I didn't even spend that much on my wife's laptop)

 

[BenRoethig]

Ah ah, so funny, and so wrong

Ten years ago, it was System 7/System 8 against Windows/WindowsNT, with lots of pros and cons just like today, and there were as many people as now saying that one side was better than the other one, with as many "good" reasons... "My Wysiwyg works better", "my ADB works better than your serial", bla bla bla... Results: both systems are outdated, all former standards are gone anyway.

History always takes a turn of "it failed then, but it will work now" - depending on one's own interests.

I was there. Compared to offerings from Umax and PowerComputing, Apple was overpriced and under equipped.

 

[manu chao]

Really? It hasn't happened to me on Windoze.

I agree OS X is more robust, but it is not like Windoze is giving me BSOD every other day or something. Or like zoombies and virus come and attack me or something. I have used several flavors of windows and it works too..

No, I do not mean crashes, just these little annoying messages popping up in Windows saying 'Syntax error' when you try to close a window, or these 'Sharing violation'.

 

[strydr]

The point I was trying to make is it will take a good argument in advertising to get existing Windows customers to switch to licensed OS X on their existing equipment.

As much as I want to run OSX on my AMD system, I do not want to see it licensed for other hardware. Sure, this means some people will never switch. Sure, people will still compare initial cost of ownership. I actually owned a Mac Clone (Power Computing)- it was made cheeply, and died by the time Apple pulled it's license. One of the best reasons to own a Mac, is it really "just works" When you throw in the slew of 3rd party hardware configurations for PC's, you induce more issues. You want OSX, buy a Mini, hook it up to your "existing equipment", and there ya go, you've now switched. Enjoy.
When my mom wanted/needed a new system, I promptly brought her my Mini. Left it with her for a few weeks, and she wouldn't return it. I ended up selling it to her, and bought myself a new Mini (Duo). Done the same with my dad, although he's more of a build-it-yourself guy. Last time I talked to him, he expressed interest in my Powerbook. As soon as the Rev. B MacBook Pro's come out, he'll be gettin my old Powerbook. This is my own personal switch campaign- I loan out a spare Mac, give a little instruction, and let r rip.

 

[Detlev]

Why the hell do they need to keep growing? They are making healthy profits ($250 million last time i saw), so why not just make quality and innovative hardware and software and stick with your market share? Is it because the board members are a bunch of greedy bastards? Probably.

That is one of the biggest traps in business. When things get going, and going well, executives become conservative. The danger is of course that the company that is holding its own is not growing, and a company that is not growing is dying. Others are not going to be nice and let you be a leader for long. It's grow or be old. Nothing to do with being a greedy bastard—directly.

 

[digitalbiker]

Apple's hardware quality has dropped the last 6 years!

Licensing OS X would most likely hurt Apple more than help.

Recently Apple hardware quality has dropped. If Apple licensed OS X and iLife to Sony or Dell, Apple would lose 95% of their hardware sales.

I have been an Apple user since 1984. My older systems not only lasted but many still work great.

But I have had nothing but trouble with Ti Books, iBooks, and the ipod. I have never gotten any of these machines to last over 4 years. Most have died after 3 years of use, just after my AppleCare went out of date.

My Ti 500 died with bad hinges, poor back light and failed logic board. My Ti 800 died with a bad logic board and failed GPU system. My Ti 1 ghz died same issue. My wife's iBook G3 800 died of bad logic board, repaired by Apple and died 4 months later of failed backlight.
I am on my third ipod. First two died with hard drive failures.

Trust me. I am not hard on these devices. I carry them in Timbuk2 cases with padded custom liners. I still have two old Gateway protables, and two old Dell portables that are over 8 years old and work fine. I used them more than I probably did the Apple computers.

Lately, I think Apple quality control and components haven dropped a lot in quality. If not for OS X, I would switch hardware.

 

[backdraft]

Or though entirely unrelated...

I find this story funny: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/85527/microsoft-employees-call-for-ballmer-to-go.html

 

[billyboy]

Apple sells hardware and subsidizes its pretty much world class software to make those hardware sales happen. So it is no surprise that Apple has ported iTunes to Windows to sell hardware (iPod) , (surprisingly it hasnt ported iPhoto to sell iPod photo?) but oh well.

OS X is a great product but as such isnt really that easy to advertise. Obviously it lies at the core of the wonders of Macs (multi tasking, non-crashing, high security) but it is so good because it is part of a great hardware/software mix, and it would be a big ad to get across the full Mac multimedia experience (and as far a sbeing super creative, many people either arent that interested in it, or cant believe it is so easy and have professional slideshows etc within their grasp).

If Apple licensed OSX to any old manufacturer that inherent stability would be at risk. And to be honest, with 8 billion bucks in the bank and a very slick manufacturing process in place, Apple can crank up their own production of high value Macs to meet rising demand inhouse.

Picking up on the heated debate, what OS X does do that Windows users without degrees in computer science cannot do, is spend an easy hour "setting up" ie installing OS X. then thereafter they can turn their computer on everyday, do what they like on the internet, install any old freeware, and generally not need a useful neighbour to get them out of trouble. Unfortunately the majority of computer users only surf and email and listen to music and for the most part, those functions are pretty slick on a Windows box. What isnt slick (and what Windows users seem to defend as "no big deal really" is keeping the OS up and running/ fighting viruses, reinstalling.)

 

[strydr]

Unfortunately until then i'm stuck because Apple priced me out of their hardware. (For the record I didn't even spend that much on my wife's laptop)

I spent way too much on my Powerbook- the other day I was lookin through my records, $3,500 for my PowerBook, plus Applecare, and a bag, now I'm over $4K. I tell you what, my PB has more that paid for itself by not having to replace it. At my old job (where they gave me **** about having a Mac everyday), I had to build my boss a new laptop every 6 months. I remember one day, he was futzing under the hood- the video cable had single loose pin, and the video was fading in/out. He ended up with duct tape, and cardboard sandwiched under the keyboard to keep a video signal. The day I droped my PB (while running, open, and working hard) I was soo afraid it was dead. The result, well unless I showed you the damage, you'd never know. No crashed OS, no scratches, just a tiny bend.

For the record, I have no wife, no kids, and expendable income. I have invested a healthy (maybe not so healthy) chunk of my $$ on computers. I don't mind spending $$ on quality work. Not everyone is in my boat, but I know I'm not alone.

Both the BMW and the Ford are governed to a specified speed limit- but wouldn't you rather drive the BMW, than the Ford??

 

[jaredbbauer]

Why the hell do they need to keep growing? They are making healthy profits ($250 million last time i saw), so why not just make quality and innovative hardware and software and stick with your market share? Is it because the board members are a bunch of greedy bastards? Probably.

If you don't know anything about business you should not comment on it.

Go to school. Then come back and post.

 

[strydr]

It is possible to have a limited access user in XP, but you can't as easily control exactly what they can do or edit access permissions, and as far as I know you have to log out and log in again (or switch user) to do anything as a root.

Actualy, you can use the "run as" command to run anything needing Admin rights from a (non-privileged) user account.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I was there. Compared to offerings from Umax and PowerComputing, Apple was overpriced and under equipped.

I was there, too. The UMAX machines were basically garbage, but they were cheap, just like in the Windows PC world. PowerComputing, if you don't recall, was set up with Apple money. Motorola did zero advertising for their clones outside of Mac magazines. None of the cloners were doing a single thing to help Apple build market share for the MacOS.

There's a reason why companies don't create competitors for their own products. The reason is, it doesn't work. In fact, it's kind of crazy to think that it would.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Tired of this argument...

See this is what I don't get. I've never once had a difficult time with a Windows machine. I should again remind anybody reading this that I'm not a Windows fanboy. I run what I need for a particular job. Sometimes that Windows and sometimes it's not. I have a mac, i run OS X.

That said I have never had a hard time with a Windows machine. Everything works just as smooth as a Mac. I really dig OS X. I think it's a great OS and if I had my druthers it would be my main OS. I can't however justify spending that kind of money on a machine when I can get more for less anywhere else. As a result my "big" box runs Linux. And just for the record my Linux is just as smooth as my OS X. Go figure.

As Consumer Reports was mentioned earlier, I must pipe in.

1) I find Consumer Reports annoying because all it ever looks at is quantitative measures. True, those are important but so are lots of subjective measures. Everybody wants bang for buck. However, when I have gotten into some heated arguments about cars and it often comes back to C.R. rated something so & so. Bottom line is people buy things for different reasons and C.R. doesn't examine those subjective reasons.

2) You are obviously much better at computers than the average person. Just because you do not have a problem does not mean that the problem does not exist. Lots of people run into problems every day with computers, cars, plumbing, heating etc. It is often easier to pay somebody to fix a problem than it is worth the time and energy to save a few dollars. That is why many people take their cars to Jiffy Lube for an oil change or call a plumber to fix a leak, when both are much cheaper to do yourself.

3) Finally, who cares!! You use what you like to use. I'll use what I like to use. Microsoft and Apple both have a place in the marketplace just like Wal-Mart and Nordstroms do. There are obviously reasons why both exist and thrive that cannot be measured in dollars and cents.

 

[seand]

Actualy, you can use the "run as" command to run anything needing Admin rights from a (non-privileged) user account.

Ah. I'd never really investigated that, I usually just leave my XP accounts as admin. Since a number of applications won't run in limited access mode anyway, it seems kinda silly to run as a limited access user and run everything as admin anyway. There was a time I tried the limited access thing, but I remember it being more annoying than useful.

 

[Maxiseller]

This has turned into the official "lets bitch about each other" thread!! Gonna head over to the nice community boards after this for a relax...

I thought however in the meantime, I'd just firmly throw my hat in the "I've switched, used windows since 3.1, XP sucks - get over it" category.

SpankWare...

95% of people use windows because its nice and comfortable. I see people loading up a webpage, clicking on pop up menus around 300 million times to "allow" an image to load - Ive never not ONCE done this in safari...and Ive never had a pop up. Explain this?

Explain why the other day I spent three hours just trying to get XP to recognise a usb input (music) keyboard that was supposed to not need drivers - but the same thing worked on mac.

Explain that when it did finally work, windows puts up a little fanfare "Hey, Ive just installed your new device - boy, aren't I good" and yet OSX...well, I just loaded up sibelius and played in some notes. No setup.

Explain why, in the past 12 months Ive reformatted dads XP system over 5 times. Mom's mac mini? Thats right...not once.

There are millions of reasons people switch. If you want to boast about windows, you're in the wrong forum. Most of us have switched because we need a better computing experience.

I literally couldn't write music without my mac. On a PC Id spend the best part of a morning trying to load up my latest score, get the external plug ins to work just right - get the outboard equipment to register with XP and vice versa...

And now? Well, I wander down to my studio a little later than I used to, click the mouse to wake my powermac from sleep and I'm writing music within ten seconds as I can leave logic open with no loss of ANY data.

try doing THAT on windows.

 

[Arnaud]

I was there. Compared to offerings from Umax and PowerComputing, Apple was overpriced and under equipped.

I was there, too. The UMAX machines were basically garbage, but they were cheap, just like in the Windows PC world.

Er, I was also there, which allows me to write what I wrote in my previous posts...
I'll second Reilly on his last comment: the clones were cheap machines, looking and feeling like a cheap PC, so that the "over-priced and under-equipped" argument is not correct - cheap plastic cases derived from the PC world, etc.
Actually, a good picture of what the future might be if someone had the idea of licensing Os X: cheap machines stealing the market from Apple, so that in the end nobody is satisfied anymore.
I'll keep on buying Apple stuff from my Apple shop, and with Apple-agreed parts.

Additionally: the strategy of Apple for the moment is to let somebody come up with booting Windows on a Mac (so that there is no official political issues with Microsoft) and strongly attack (legally) anyone trying to boot OsX on a Windows platform. Would they really do that if they wanted to submerge the PC market with Os X?

 

[BornAgainMac]

I can only assume you've never used Windows XP

I've been using Windows since 95. All of my XP machines have never ever NOT ONCE given me a blue screen or some cryptic error message that I didn't understand.

Windows ME saw MS try to clear up alot of the stupid error messages that were all over 98, XP was another step in the right direction in that regard.

I have just as many apps QUIT on me in 10.4.5 than I do in XP Pro SP2

I have been using Windows since Windows 3.1 up to Windows XP. I would agree with you but this morning I booted up and Windows would bring up a dialog box telling me to run chkdsk to repair the drive along with a cryptic error. This was before I could sign in and do anything. It would repeat the message almost like a loop but eventually it let me sign in. I tried to run the Disk Check program and it told me it needed exclusive access and needed to reboot. It rebooted and the problem was solved but I didn't see the disk get checked or anything. Note: I shutdown the machine normally the night before I got this error.

 

[Arnaud]

95% of people use windows because its nice and comfortable. I see people loading up a webpage, clicking on pop up menus around 300 million times to "allow" an image to load.

Explain why the other day I spent three hours just trying to get XP to recognise a usb input (music) keyboard that was supposed to not need drivers - but the same thing worked on mac.

Explain that when it did finally work, windows puts up a little fanfare "Hey, Ive just installed your new device - boy, aren't I good" and yet OSX...well, I just loaded up sibelius and played in some notes. No setup.

Explain why, in the past 12 months Ive reformatted dads XP system over 5 times. Mom's mac mini? Thats right...not once.

I literally couldn't write music without my mac. On a PC Id spend the best part of a morning trying to load up my latest score, get the external plug ins to work just right - get the outboard equipment to register with XP and vice versa...

This is quite pathetic. Say that you only have a PC instead of a Mac. Let's give you one week to set it up, i.e. get your proper music software installed, spend a couple of hours setting the proper drivers etc. Now it has become your machine, and you will only use it, every other day.
I don't imagine you have to install your drivers everyday, do you ?

About the pop-up windows: try Firefox on your pc or another one. Didn't Safari "acquire" the tabs and some other options from Firefox ?

I mean, this is not objective, and quite tiring instead.

I'm going to say it: I like my Os X, but:
- I've had incomplete drivers in the past, had to wait until a fix would be provided, sometimes because of a change in the Os;
- there are security flaws in the system, albeit few;
- the "Apple quality" is an arguable point, just check the thread about the whining sound in the Macbook pro.
Additionally, both my parents have a PC, and only my father has regular problems with his, mostly because he tries to fix things up. Er, I think he's more efficient in fixing the car than in fixing a computer, what with being 64 years old, not exactly the good generation.

Most of us do not like Windows because we are not used to it, and that's all. It always takes me ages to get what I want from Windows, but not only because it's "so bad".

This doesn't change the fact that I like Os X better; it's just that some argumentations suck a little...

 

[Maxiseller]

This is quite pathetic. Say that you only have a PC instead of a Mac. Let's give you one week to set it up, i.e. get your proper music software installed, spend a couple of hours setting the proper drivers etc. Now it has become your machine, and you will only use it, every other day.
I don't imagine you have to install your drivers everyday, do you ?

About the pop-up windows: try Firefox on your pc or another one. Didn't Safari "acquire" the tabs and some other options from Firefox ?

I mean, this is not objective, and quite tiring instead.

I'm going to say it: I like my Os X, but:
- I've had incomplete drivers in the past, had to wait until a fix would be provided, sometimes because of a change in the Os;
- there are security flaws in the system, albeit few;
- the "Apple quality" is an arguable point, just check the thread about the whining sound in the Macbook pro.
Additionally, both my parents have a PC, and only my father has regular problems with his, mostly because he tries to fix things up. Er, I think he's more efficient in fixing the car than in fixing a computer, what with being 64 years old, not exactly the good generation.

Most of us do not like Windows because we are not used to it, and that's all. It always takes me ages to get what I want from Windows, but not only because it's "so bad".

This doesn't change the fact that I like Os X better; it's just that some argumentations suck a little...

OK, you know what insults are not required on a forum that people view for pleasure. I'm not trying to upset anyone, or indeed argue; I'm very simply telling you my experience.

And, In my experience:

1) There are SO many things you have to worry about with windows. There are so many system drivers that run in conflict with each other; and a lot of the time the audio drivers are the first thing to suffer. It's amazing, but installing a mouse once cost me an entire three days to sort out - and that is loss of severe funds and time if you're gotta finish a score in two weeks.

2) Hardware is ok; not great - ive had my problems...but the powermac is a solid machine and I wouldn't swap it right now for the world.

And so, thats just me. But it's a lot of people here too and thats why there is such an avid community base for mac users and fans. Calling an argument (which is based on personal experience and not the need to prove you wrong] "pathetic" or flawed is in itself an entire miscomprehension of my post; and more than that, it's downright insulting.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I use ibook at home and xp at work.

The so called mac experience is over-rated. Windoze just does fine too for me as well as over 90% of the world.

Let me expand on this...

I have a laptop running XP. Getting the laptop was one of the worse decissions that I've ever made- Not because of XP though. I assumed that because it was a gateway branded Samsung computer, it would work well. The hard drive ribbon constantly fails on me, and it's had over 5 hard drives in it. For a time, I was wishing I had gone with an iBook or Powerbook and was enjoying myself.

Then Gateway found a fix. It's a little extra padding near the cable. I don't remember the last time I needed a new hard drive, or reinstalled XP, or even got an error*! I use firefox and get just as many pop ups with forefox as I do with Safari. I prefer XP for writing websites, where as OS X is better at looking sexy. I can take my laptop to school with me every day, and come home and get on my mini and use OS X. I can suspend my laptop and when I turn it back on, everything's still there.

So my point is...I miss expose. I miss being able to write the "e" with an accent. and I miss the snazzy "flurry" screen saver that comes with OS X.

Otherwise a computer is a TOOL. Tea-Oh-Oh-El. Tool. You use it to do what you need to do. RIght now I'm a little pissed because my mac mini doesn't do what I want it to do, and I'm off to my custom built computer (it cost $500) to play Guild Wars. In the mean time, QUIT WITH THE DAMN BICKERING!

Apple makes it sexy, but Windows does what you need to do JUST AS WELL. Expose may be sexy, but a taskbar does things just as well! XP has the briefcase, which I can't go without, but then OS X has dashboard which I can't go without either. So I guess what I'm trying to say is...A computer is a damn TOOL, don't idolize it!



*That is a lie- I do things on my computer all the time that it isn't capable of doing (ie running Guild Wars) which causes a lot of crashed drivers due to overtaxing of the hardware. But the last time that I was trying to work and XP crashed on me...I can't remember. and a BSOD? I havn't had one of those since XP couldn't find my hard drive after a resume from suspend, but that's been fixed by the padding...

***Edited to make more readable and stuff.***

 

[yac_moda]

I LOVE THIS !!!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62295

The employees at MS are talking about CANNING Balmer -- FINALLY they reap what they a have sown !!!

AND THIS IS THE BEST OF ALL ...
"Meanwhile, another poster claiming "inside" knowledge said Apple is preparing to stomp Microsoft with its next major operating system upgrade, Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard. "Apple is preparing a big attack against Vista with Leopard. They are preparing this for over 3 years now," wrote the anonymous poster. "Tiger's under-the-hood improvements make it possible to keep any significant feature secret until a month or two before shipping"

I bet Apple is using fast user switching and virtualization for multiple environments so that they can keep the new Leopard and its features from people that might be looking over their shoulders, like MS employees that they might have to work with -- HA, HA, HA ...

... APPLE Wins

 

[WeeManDan]

First comment

Have just spent the best part of an hour reading all the comments and thinking about them. I am a switcher of about 9 months now and the only crashes I have ever had on my Mac mini have been due to a cheappy cheap USB 2 hub that didn't like dealing with more than a few tracks at a time, Windows XP I cannot say the same.

One thing that really appeals to me is you pay a premium for a Mac, but then I payed a premium for my last bike. I bent the gear mechanism and took it to the shop and the man got a hammer out and fixed it, to date it still works perfectly. The gear mec being bent was my fault but the man fixed it free of charge. When and it does happen you get a bad bit of software on a Win XP machine, how many people have had to wait, 10-15+ minutes before they are able to get on with there computing tasks? You can get dud (or should that be FUD??) on a Mac and I have come across them but the OS holds up, and like the man with the hammer fixes it. Admittedly this is down to the way UNIX is and works but then whom here would think that there Granny could operate UNIX?

I would rather pay a premium for a Mac for it to be on hardware developed next door to the software and the two work in harmony. When people are trying to create something that will run on something else that is when problems creep in. How can you have a bit of software work perfectly on a million+ different combinations of machines? You cant and it is for that reason I do not want to see OS X shipped out.

Going back to the Granny, my Grandma has finally succumbed and decided she wants a PC for email and the web, to which I said no problem get a Mac mini for a little over £300 and I'll sort you out an old monitor and the rest. I wish they had kept the mini at that really low entry price as now a Dell with a flat screen looks (in her eyes with a flat screen) a whole chunk better than a little white box! I feel Apple missed a trick there. Why do I want her to have a Mac and OSX? Simple viruses, she wont remember to keep updating her Anti-virus and why should she have to, especially when there is a credible alternative?

There is though one thing that I feel a Windows machine would do better for an IT novice, installing new software. I know it is simple on a Mac but a guided walkthrough makes it easier for someone whom doesn't know what the Applications folder is or it's purpose. As far as I can see that is its only plus point.

Another thing I seem to have picked up on is that it tends to be IT literate people whom go for Macs. We buy them and we can explain why, and often convince others of forking out a bit more but I wonder how an IT novice would do? That is partly why I want to get my Grandma a Mac, to see if it really is as simple as it claims to be.

Just some thoughts

Dan

 

[mark88]

One of the things I like most about Macs is that they have a small market share, it's like a little community that easy to follow and live in.