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It seems you are all expecting Apple to absorb the costs of R&D and make them accessible to everyone for free, regardless of whether they use Apple products or not
Given all the monopoly rents Apple has raked in with their App Store monopoly for iOS, it‘s fair to „share“ the costs of their R&D with the developers they‘ve extracted these rents from.

Until Vestager (or her successor) decides that they are, you know like iPadOS.
These decisions are taken based on market investigations.
Not based on a whim of one EU commissioner.

Just as regulatory action in the US isn‘t taken by one…
Wait…. with your process of appointing United States attorneys and chairpersons of regulatory authorities, I‘m not so sure…

They’re not stifling competition. If they are, please explain why Spotify had 56% of the E.U. market despite being less well integrated than Apple Music.
A better service can still prevail in the market, even under stifled competition.
Just as a better sports team can beat a weaker one - even when the referees unfairly disadvantage the latter.
 
"iOS and iPadOS are two separate operating systems"
is just as honest and truthful a claim as your banana republic dictator claiming:
"I'm not benefitting and I've got nothing to do with the companies that receive government contracts".

Apple "forking" their operating systems after the DMA came into force, would most certainly swiftly be dealt with as a means of circumventing the DMA by artificially segmenting its business.

Since Apple did so before the DMA entered into force, iPadOS had to be retroactively designated as a covered core platform service.

Given how Apple "forked" the two (only) in 2019, and in little else than name, it can be surmised they may have done that exactly just for this purpose: Segmenting their business and pre-empting impending regulation.


Versus developers that are making apps to be sold, they aren't.
Apple represents roughly half of the market to them.
iOS and iPadOS ARE two separate operating systems and always have been. They share similarities yes but that doesn't change the fact that, while sharing various ui-elements, they're fundamentally different. It's like identical twins - similar in many respects but fundamentally different at their cores.
 
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Apple Watches work only with phones
…and they can continue to do so.
They’re not a covered core platform.

Apple may just have to allow other smartwatch makers to integrate with the iPhone.
It‘s about enabling competitors to compete with the watch - that doesn‘t mean Apple will have to give up its level of integration.
 
iOS and iPadOS ARE two separate operating systems and always have been
Next, you‘d be claiming MacBookOS is different from macOS, if Apple were to fork the two in name?

No, they’re not. They are basically the same operating system running on differently sized screens - they also were called and marketed the same until 2019.

they're fundamentally different
They are not „fundamentally“ different. There are slight differences between them - but the „fundament“ or „core“, the architecture, kernel, BSD userland and APIs are the same. And iOS apps can run on iPadOS entirely unmodified.

They‘re less fundamentally different than Microsoft Windows in its different editions - which also is a designated CPS under the DMA.
 
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Apple may just have to allow other smartwatch makers to integrate with the iPhone.
It‘s about enabling competitors to compete with the watch - that doesn‘t mean Apple will have to give up its level of integration.
Which is the whole issue behind the DMA.

Apple uses integration as a key differentiator to sell its hardware at premium prices. Take away that level of differentiation, and what's left, if any smartwatch is able to get the same degree of access to the OS?

Either way, come Monday, people in the EU will get third party app stores and the ability to swap out default apps (regardless of hardware age). Meanwhile, Apple Intelligence will slowly come to everyone else, everywhere else, with the caveat that you need to have a compatible device (for me, this means I won't get to experience it on my 13 Pro Max, which I have no plans to upgrade this year, but my M4 iPad Pro and M1 MBA would qualify).

I know living here in Asia, I probably won't get to see AI for maybe 6 months at least. So for now, 1 point for the EU?

May we each get the Apple experience we deserve.:)
 
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I don’t get the hype. These will be apps that have not been reviewed by Apple, will most likely cause problems for the iPad and make it easier for hackers to install malware etc. Or am I missing something?
 
Direct quote from your link (emphasis mine):


How this any different than a banana republic where the dictator’s friends’ companies get all the contracts and the opposition’s supporters’ companies get nothing but investigations?
FALSE - provides link to information that shows it’s true. :)
 
In truth, it is essential the same operating system. Apple's been marketing it as such And you know it.
And so are the many apps that are cross-purchases and sold through the same store.
And, strangely enough, NONE of what you have written, which, by the way, makes some sense, is in the DMA. They had years to work on this and they were so laser focused on reducing Apple’s profits, they threw common sense out of the window. Some would wonder why it feels that this regulation was rushed.

Some would then recognize that Vestager’s term ends in October of 2024, and it makes sense why they just tossed it out there, unfinished and incomplete with wide gaps between what the DMA says and what they actually want companies to do. Makes perfect sense why companies are holding off releasing features in the EU until they get a formal definition of what’s allowed and what’s not allowed. It’s a lot easier to just NOT introduce a feature to a region than to introduce a feature then have to rework it once the regulators make up new rules.
 
They’re not a covered core platform.
Until they say they are. The way the DMA is being used, they can apparently ignore the metrics defined in the document and call anything a covered core platform if they like. They’ve already done it before. However, as Vestager is leaving, (on bad terms) it’s actually likely that the replacement won’t be as focused on reducing the profits of the companies and, instead, work with them.
 
Bring windows to iPad in the eu.


The TestFlight Beta ist full at the moment, but I have it.
 
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Which is the whole issue behind the DMA.

Apple uses integration as a key differentiator to sell its hardware at premium prices
Which is the issue behind the DMA:

One operator leverages leverages his dominance in one market (core platform service, here: the OS) to charge premium prices in another smartwatches. By you call „integration“ - yet what truly amounts to locking out competitors from offering a better product or service to interface with the dominant platform.

Whereas the DMA enables fair competition in the market for smartwatches.
I don’t get the hype. These will be apps that have not been reviewed by Apple, will most likely cause problems for the iPad and make it easier for hackers to install malware etc. Or am I missing something?
You‘re missing the part where Apple will still review these apps.
Also, Apple has been technically allowing for installation of unreviewed apps onto any iPad (or iPhone) for a long time.

They had years to work on this and they were so laser focused on reducing Apple’s profits
Neither is it singularly focused (as a laser) on Apple, nor is it focused on reducing profit.
They could reduce profits much simpler by introducing a digital tax or something.

It‘s about enabling and safeguarding competition in digital markets (that are not competitive).
 
Which is the issue behind the DMA:

One operator leverages leverages his dominance in one market (core platform service, here: the OS) to charge premium prices in another smartwatches. By you call „integration“ - yet what truly amounts to locking out competitors from offering a better product or service to interface with the dominant platform.

Whereas the DMA enables fair competition in the market for smartwatches.
You are missing the point which I have been trying to made, which is that fair competition doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is equally ahead, but that they are all equally behind.

You seem to assume that forcing everybody (including Apple) to compete on a level playing field means that everyone will be able to release their own Apple Watch clones that are able to integrate as closely with the iPhone as the original, resulting in greater variety and possibly lower prices for consumers.

I feel it would instead only result in the opposite. I owned a Pebble Watch prior to the Apple Watch, and it was basically limited to managing calls and receiving notifications. Apple went ahead with the Apple Watch because they saw the opportunity to do something more with the deep level of system-level integration they had access to (and charge handsomely for it). Imagine an alternate reality where Apple never bothered with releasing the Apple Watch because they realised that legislation like the DMA would simply force Apple to make available to competitors all the progress they had made with their R&D, and there would be no ROI in this regard. We would not have the Apple Watch Ultra 2 today, and would still be counting steps and syncing notifications with Fitbit trackers.

What incentive would there be for Apple to keep innovating if they are obligated to now share those innovation with its competitors? Everyone would just sit back, wait for Apple to release a new product category like AirPods or the Apple Watch, then copy it and undercut Apple because they now no longer need to spend on R&D themselves, knowing that it would just work as well anyways.

Or let's use Spotify (the EU's darling poster child) as another example. Maybe it is "cheating" that Siri can only be used to stream music on Apple Music, but if you give me the option between being able to do only this, and not even having said option (because Apple would rather not let you control Spotify in this manner), I fail to see how consumers are better off by not having even one superior alternative, if it locks them in to Apple's platform, and even if it does disadvantage every other alternative. At least I have the option of paying for an integrated experience, unlike with Android or Windows.

Like, would you be happy only when I can't even use Siri to start music playback or dictate messages on a cellular Apple Watch just because you currently can't do likewise with Spotify or WhatsApp? That's what you all basically believe, right? That Apple somehow has to suffer and to lose in order for consumers to win, whereas in reality, I find that our incentives are more closely aligned than most here would care to believe.

"Unfair" is nothing more than a meaningless buzzword used by companies looking for someone to blame for market failures when the problem is (more often than not) found internally with a bad vision, inadequate corporate culture, and lack of understanding as to what makes Apple unique.
 
What incentive would there be for Apple to keep innovating if they are obligated to now share those innovation with its competitors?
The argument can easily be reversed:

What incentive is there for other potential smartwatch manufacturers to keep innovating - if they can't compete with Apple anyways, due to being locked out of interoperability?

We're now living in a world where hardly anyone will invest in R&D for smartwatches - and people are fooling themselves if they believe that only Apple can make "the best" watches.

Furthermore and over the longer term, what incentive is there for Apple to invest into their own smartwatch line and come up with real innovations - when they can just "go through the motions" of delivering only incremental updates. Because they can lock out the competition from interfacing/interoperating with their core platform product anyways?

This in unhealthy for the smartwatch market and competition in it.

but if you give me the option between being able to do only this, and not even having said option (because Apple would rather not let you control Spotify in this manner), I fail to see how consumers are better off by not having even one superior alternative
They are better off. But they would be even "more better off" if it wasn't restricted to Apple Music.

Just as they would be better of if they were offered payment options in the Spotify app. And no, Spotify paying 30% "tax" on their app revenue to Apple isn't reasonable in today's competitive environment, where Apple Music has grown to become one of their largest competitors.

would you be happy only when I can't even use Siri to start music playback or dictate messages on a cellular Apple Watch just because you currently can't do likewise with Spotify or WhatsApp?
No. I would be happy if we both, you and I, had options to choose our preferred messaging or music streaming app - and be able to control it with a voice assistant.

That's what you all basically believe, right? That Apple somehow has to suffer and to lose in order for consumers to win
No - I believe that consumers do suffer from the anticompetitive restrictions imposed by Apple today. And that more competitive choice would be win for consumers.
 
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Imagine an alternate reality where Apple never bothered with releasing the Apple Watch (...) and there would be no ROI in this regard
The assumption is baseless.

There evidently is a market for smartwatches.
Apple have the technology and ability to design and make premium smartwatches.
And they'd still benefit from the iPhone "halo effect" in selling their own watches to consumers - profitably.

They're "only"... about the biggest and most hugely profitable consumer electronics company on earth.
 
The argument can easily be reversed:

What incentive is there for other potential smartwatch manufacturers to keep innovating - if they can't compete with Apple anyways, due to being locked out of interoperability?
If only there was another operating system where competitors weren’t limited to what Apple would and wouldn’t support. Maybe that operating system would get over 70% of the market, allowing competitors a huge opportunity to make a product that shows what they can do and all the great features Apple won’t allow.
 
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If only there was another operating system where competitors weren’t limited to what Apple would and wouldn’t support. Maybe that operating system would get up to 70% of the market
I assume (yes, assume) that "attach rates" for smartwatches are higher for iPhone users (due to different demographics of the user base and higher average purchasing power) than for phones on other OS. Probably more alike to a 50-50 split, just like for mobile app spending.

And you're missing the part where that "other" operating system developer is selling their own smartwatches - and has gobbled up one of the most well-known fitness tracking/smartwatch companies in the process.

Smartwatches serve as an extension of their respective ecosystems and prevent people from switching. And without regulation, it's only a matter of time before that company. anticompetitively self-preference their own smartwatches with their core platform services.

In short: similar business environment for third-party smartwatch manufacturers (with the exception of Samsung, who kind of seem in bed with Google for the time being). And it's not limited to smartwatches.
 
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The argument can easily be reversed:

What incentive is there for other potential smartwatch manufacturers to keep innovating - if they can't compete with Apple anyways, due to being locked out of interoperability?

We're now living in a world where hardly anyone will invest in R&D for smartwatches - and people are fooling themselves if they believe that only Apple can make "the best" watches.

Furthermore and over the longer term, what incentive is there for Apple to invest into their own smartwatch line and come up with real innovations - when they can just "go through the motions" of delivering only incremental updates. Because they can lock out the competition from interfacing/interoperating with their core platform product anyways?

This in unhealthy for the smartwatch market and competition in it.

The best counterpoint is always what’s happening on the android side. Anyone can make an android wear device. What happens is that this all just results in a race to the bottom. Cheap, uninspiring hardware with little differentiation to show for it. With no profits to be made, there’s even less of an incentive to invest in said platform. It’s probably second only to the state of the android tablet market in terms of “deadness”, and guess which one is “open” and which one is “closed” again?

Just like how the ability to sideload means piracy tends to be more rife on android compared to iOS.

Not once have I looked at the state of the android market and gone “wow, I wish I could have some of that over here on iOS”. Yet somehow you believe things will be different because …?
 
False:

Commission designates Apple's iPadOS under the Digital Markets Act
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_2363

LOL you are arguing about something and you didn’t even bother to pay attention to what we were talking about to begin with?!?

We all KNOW the EU did this. The issue is that they did so even though the iPad doesn’t meet their already arbitrary numbers (and Spotify does). That’s what this ENTIRE discussion has been about. Keep up or stay out of it.
 
I was never a fan of the app store for iphone and ipad. I wish Apple would treat it like Mac OS and I can install what I want when I want from where i want.
You have every right to feel that way.

What you (and the EU) shouldn’t be able to do is MAKE Apple do that.

That’s like forcing Tesla to make a gas car.

Or Beyond Meat to start selling animal based products.

Or McDonalds to start having to let Burger King sell Whoppers in their stores.

Regulation should protect customers in three ways:

1. Prevent dangerous products from being on the market or ensuring they are properly limited.
2. Ensure companies accurately describe what their products do
3. Prevent companies with monopolies from abusing their power.

What the EU is doing meets none of those criteria when it comes to most of the DMA.
 
Regulation should protect customers in three ways:
According to you?

What the EU is doing meets none of those criteria when it comes to most of the DMA.
The EU doesn’t meet your preferred criteria?

Really, your post amounts to your idea of what should be, and then lambasting the EU for not adhering to it.

That’s not really saying anything about anything.
 
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The issue is that they did so even though the iPad doesn’t meet their already arbitrary numbers (and Spotify does)
What‘s arbitrary is the „distinction„ between iOS and iPadOS, given how they are basically the same OS for different screen sizes.
Regulation should protect customers in three ways
Regulation should also protect competition in important markets from companies abusing their dominant position.
That‘s what the DMA does.

What the EU is doing meets none of those criteria when it comes to most of the DMA.
It‘s not really consumer protection legislation - is antitrust and competition legislation.
 
Like, would you be happy only when I can't even use Siri to start music playback or dictate messages on a cellular Apple Watch just because you currently can't do likewise with Spotify or WhatsApp? That's what you all basically believe, right? That Apple somehow has to suffer and to lose in order for consumers to win, whereas in reality, I find that our incentives are more closely aligned than most here would care to believe
Weird view. Not a single person is saying Apple can’t do anything within their own ecosystem, or Apple has to ‘suffer’. Rather they must allow competitors to be able to compete within their eco system.

That way, I can buy a different watch if I want, to work with my iPhone.
Or use a different music provider with the same level of integration. Or use a different digital assistant that is superior to Siri.

I can’t see why one wouldn’t want these choices.
 
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