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Reflection happens at all angles.
Specular reflection happens only where the surface normal is halfway between the light source and the viewer--in other words, off-center vantage points.

This is why all the exaggerated photos of the horrors of glossy screens are always taken from the side, above, or below a center viewing angle.
I think you're thinking of the angle where a majority of the light hits your face.
And I think you're using the wrong definition of reflection, as motulist was.

Everyone complaining of reflection here is complaining of specular highlights, and not plain reflection of scattered photons. No one here is complaining about the fact that monitors don't absorb more than 4-8% of incoming light.
LOL ... So I sit off-square to my notebook? Nice solution.
No, you sit directly square to the display. If you do that, the only possible way to see a reflection is with a light source
And FYI I've used a friends glassy MacBook Pro for several days when my older one was in for repair and if I remain square-on to the laptop, no amount of vertical rotation of the screen eliminated reflections in my office
If you're truly square-on, there wouldn't be any visible reflections to eliminate.
And by the way, every promo shot I've seen with the glassy screens in has a massive stripe of light diagonally across the screen which
Citation needed. One that's not added in post-production.
Glossy just doesn't cut it for people in the graphic and photographic fields. I'm going to have to go with a LaCie 324 instead.
Oh not that old chestnut again. No graphics professional with a brain has ever conflated these two issues--just Internet people recycling a meme. The LaCie is an excellent display, which has nothing to do with whether it's glossy or not. It's also $200 more than the Apple display, and thus no wonder that it should be superior.
While it's good that Mac has acknowledged the problem, until they bring back the matte option on all their screens it will be too little, too late to make much of a difference for graphic intensive users.
Actually, if you read the professional reviews, you'd know that the 2009 notebooks, glossy though they may be, are the most accurate displays Apple has shipped in notebooks since the Intel switch. The current iMac panels are also quite highly regarded for consumer displays, though they're not quite as good as a few years ago when the iMacs shipped with IPS panels.

If they brought back the matte displays of 2008, you'd be taking a step backward as a professional.

If you don't like glossy displays, that's perfectly legitimate. There's no need to spread misinformation to others to justify it, though.
 
Actually, if you read the professional reviews, you'd know that the 2009 notebooks, glossy though they may be, are the most accurate displays Apple has shipped in notebooks since the Intel switch.

I think you're talking about the Apple's most accurate panels, to date. Whether or not it is still colour accurate when you put it behind a glass, that I don't know.

Also, shame that Apple killed the brilliant 23" display they had (or was it 24"?) I wanted to get one - great design, matte and moreover IPS. Now we have the mirror.

And all this dispute about reflections is POINTLESS. You may argue semantics to the death if you wish, but whatever I choose to call it reflections or specular highlights or "OMFG it burns my eyes! The glare burns my eyes!" it still doesn't change the fact that I don't want it. And no amount of definition throwing will change this.
 
Specular reflection happens only where the surface normal is halfway between the light source and the viewer--in other words, off-center vantage points.

Hmm, I dont think you know what youre going on about. The normal does NOT HAVE to be half way. All you have to be is at the angle of reflection and BAM! Glare.

This is why all the exaggerated photos of the horrors of glossy screens are always taken from the side, above, or below a center viewing angle.

It can still happen perpendicular to the screen, unless the angle of incidence is at the glass' critical angle where total internal reflection occurs.

And I think you're using the wrong definition of reflection, as motulist was.

The definition of reflection is light bouncing off a surface. Theres no way you can get that wrong. You are assuming the panel is a perfectly flat surface as well. Must I draw scientific pictures.

Everyone complaining of reflection here is complaining of specular highlights, and not plain reflection of scattered photons. No one here is complaining about the fact that monitors don't absorb more than 4-8% of incoming light.

Umm it doesnt matter. At all. Scattering photons from a irregular surface is still a pain. "Specular" is what you are limiting yourself too. It is also the one which has the most affect.

No, you sit directly square to the display. If you do that, the only possible way to see a reflection is with a light source

If you're truly square-on, there wouldn't be any visible reflections to eliminate.

Citation needed. One that's not added in post-production.

I think I do have to draw pictures. Light is emmited in 360 degrees. Some light will always be reflected into your eye.

Oh not that old chestnut again. No graphics professional with a brain has ever conflated these two issues--just Internet people recycling a meme. The LaCie is an excellent display, which has nothing to do with whether it's glossy or not. It's also $200 more than the Apple display, and thus no wonder that it should be superior.

Yet the ACDs are better than the LED ACDs...

Actually, if you read the professional reviews, you'd know that the 2009 notebooks, glossy though they may be, are the most accurate displays Apple has shipped in notebooks since the Intel switch. The current iMac panels are also quite highly regarded for consumer displays, though they're not quite as good as a few years ago when the iMacs shipped with IPS panels.

If they brought back the matte displays of 2008, you'd be taking a step backward as a professional.

Umm, you just countered your own points. You do realize that don't you???
These professionals, they would be freelancers... yes?

If you don't like glossy displays, that's perfectly legitimate. There's no need to spread misinformation to others to justify it, though.

What misinformation!? We all know your love for glass. The good thing about Matte is that it doesn't interfere with the picture. Thats what real pros (Like my sister) have gripes about. The saturation that glossy glass causes.
 
This may sound like a silly question,

but what about non-reflective glass?

This would allow the great look of glass, but without the reflections
 
That's not true. The lack of choice is an unfortunate side effect we have to deal with if we want Apple products, not a reason why they're good. A few years ago Apple used to give consumers relatively more choice in their computer products, and their computer products then were at least as good as they are today.

Eh, I have seen people cite the mess that was the performa days as an example where less choice is better.
 
This may sound like a silly question,

but what about non-reflective glass?

This would allow the great look of glass, but without the reflections

I think then you would get into the dreaded "sparkle display" that resulted from over coating screens like we saw on the 2.33 mbp and cinema displays.
 
I think then you would get into the dreaded "sparkle display" that resulted from over coating screens like we saw on the 2.33 mbp and cinema displays.

Cinema displays were IPS panels which tend to exhibit the "sparkle" effect on a black background. That's inherent to the technology and you need some fancy polariser (the expensive NEC IPS panels have it) to get rid of that.
 
The odd thing is that the choice of glossy vs. matte doesn't included all of the possibilities. Nowadays multi-coatings exist that fix the air/glass boundary so almost no reflection happens, all light enters the glass.

So that is without the blurryness of matte, and without the reflectivity of glossy. One example I know of is Schott Mirogard and Amiran. But other glass producers have developed similar coatings.
 
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I think you're talking about the Apple's most accurate panels, to date. Whether or not it is still colour accurate when you put it behind a glass, that I don't know.
The reviews are of the computers, calibrated with the glass in place. There's no other way to review a shipping product.
The glare burns my eyes!" it still doesn't change the fact that I don't want it. And no amount of definition throwing will change this.
That's fine. The issue isn't whether you should want it or not, but rather whether you're supporting your hatred with fake "technical" justifications where none exist. It's a subjective preference. There is no inaccuracy or technical inferiority of one over the other. You do not gain "more accurate" color on the 17" MBP by ordering it with the anti-glare option.
Hmm, I dont think you know what youre going on about. The normal does NOT HAVE to be half way. All you have to be is at the angle of reflection and BAM! Glare.
No. Sweet jesus, have you ever dealt with optics before? Your attempts at mockery fall flat when you fail to present even a basic awareness of the issue. We all took high school physics. The cocktail napkin reflection formula doesn't explain what people complain about wrt media surfaces.

Specular reflections occur at the half-angle.
www.eng.utah.edu/~jlanders/paper.doc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specular_highlight
http://people.csail.mit.edu/wojciech/BRDFValidation/ExperimentalValidation-talk.pdf
It can still happen perpendicular to the screen, unless the angle of incidence is at the glass' critical angle where total internal reflection occurs.
No, it can't. Total internal reflection has nothing to do with specular vs. diffuse reflection. You're talking about combined total reflection, i.e. number of photons.

This has already been covered by at least one poster offering false "corrections".
The definition of reflection is light bouncing off a surface. Theres no way you can get that wrong.
No, the definition of "reflection" as used in discussions about shiny displays is specular reflection. You're densely refusing to acknowledge this, and you're not the only one. It's asinine, and it must stop. Absolutely no one is talking about the total amount of reflected light--they're complaining only of the specular highlights that appear on the screen at certain angles.

That's largely the point: reflected light is problematic with either a glossy or a matte surface. You can either accept image reflections on the display (and reposition to eliminate), or you can take diffuse reflections, which wash out the display and ruin calibrated displays (and recalibrate in every new environment to eliminate). Which is better for you personally is solely based on personal preference and work environment.
I think I do have to draw pictures. Light is emmited in 360 degrees. Some light will always be reflected into your eye.
No one's talking about light. The same amount of light is reflected by a matte display and a glossy display. People are complaining of the images. It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp.
Umm, you just countered your own points. You do realize that don't you???
I did nothing of the sort.
What misinformation!? We all know your love for glass. The good thing about Matte is that it doesn't interfere with the picture. Thats what real pros (Like my sister) have gripes about. The saturation that glossy glass causes.
I have no love for glass. What I have is no hatred for it, which you seem to confuse for a love of it.

Matte does interfere with the picture. It has to. You're taking a surface and texturizing with the intent of smearing light across it, which obviously interferes with the transmission of light through that surface. Panels are usually manufactured to run "hot" to compensate, so non-anti-glare, non-matte displays will need to be adjusted downward. An accurate panel with a matte surface will be negatively impacted by the application of either a matte finish or an anti-glare coating.

Glass does not cause saturation. It removes the loss of saturation caused by the matte finishing process.
This may sound like a silly question,

but what about non-reflective glass?

This would allow the great look of glass, but without the reflections
There's no such thing as non-reflective glass that's optically clear. You can make less-reflective glass, but that's called a matte finish.
 
Eh, I have seen people cite the mess that was the performa days as an example where less choice is better.

Hey now, I'm not talking about THOSE days. You're right, the performa era was a complete mess, and really it on;y offered the appearance of choice, rather than actually offering any real choice. I'm talking about the original Jobs' return era, like when you could get a mid priced tower.

http://lowendmac.com/ppc/sawtooth-power-mac-g4-agp.html
 
And I think you're using the wrong definition of reflection, as motulist was.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?! ARE YOU TRYING TO PICK A FIGHT?! I told you I didn't want to discuss this with you anymore because I didn't think it was furthering the discussion here, and I told you I wouldn't be responding to anymore posts of yours, and when you responded after that I held my tongue to let the issue go to rest, and now when you're talking to someone else you call me out by name? What is wrong with you?
 
Hey now, I'm not talking about THOSE days. You're right, the performa era was a complete mess, and really it on;y offered the appearance of choice, rather than actually offering any real choice. I'm talking about the original Jobs' return era, like when you could get a mid priced tower.

http://lowendmac.com/ppc/sawtooth-power-mac-g4-agp.html
Those were the days when you could get a base tower from Apple for $1,599.

Apple effectively killed the entry level tower in the G5 era when you had to pick between the 2.0 GHz iMac Rev. B or a 1.8 GHz Power Mac G5.
 
I hate my glossy screen. At some angles and color conditions its unbearable, and at others is amazing. The matte too me may not be as vivid but it works under almost every condition which I would rather have.
 
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?! ARE YOU TRYING TO PICK A FIGHT?! I told you I didn't want to discuss this with you anymore because I didn't think it was furthering the discussion here, and I told you I wouldn't be responding to anymore posts of yours, and when you responded after that I held my tongue to let the issue go to rest, and now when you're talking to someone else you call me out by name? What is wrong with you?
I fail to see how you've been "called out" on anything at all.

It's a simple observation that you were proceeding under an inapplicable definition, just as MorphingDragon is doing now. You're absolutely correct that it adds nothing to the discussion to consider total reflected light, because by that measure matte and glossy displays are effectively identical. What has mattered from the start is only the manner of reflection, either specular or diffuse, which neither of you are prepared to discuss and instead resort to puzzling freak-outs or misguided offers to provide "drawings". You've been provided resources to help you learn more and have a constructive discussion if you wish, but you've declined to do so, because frankly there's nothing with which to contend.

It certainly wasn't an attack, unlike your bizarre and hyper-sensitive response.
 
Specular reflection happens only where the surface normal is halfway between the light source and the viewer--in other words, off-center vantage points.

This is why all the exaggerated photos of the horrors of glossy screens are always taken from the side, above, or below a center viewing angle.

Are you suggesting reflections don't occur when the display is at a certain angle..? That is only true if there is one light source. You aren't taking into account multiple light sources.

Multiple windows, a skyline etc. There is plenty of places I've been to where I've not been able to adjust my screen so I can actually work without getting reflections from everything.

Working with the screen pointed 30 degrees down isn't a solution..
 
The reviews are of the computers, calibrated with the glass in place. There's no other way to review a shipping product.

That's fine. The issue isn't whether you should want it or not, but rather whether you're supporting your hatred with fake "technical" justifications where none exist. It's a subjective preference. There is no inaccuracy or technical inferiority of one over the other. You do not gain "more accurate" color on the 17" MBP by ordering it with the anti-glare option.

No. Sweet jesus, have you ever dealt with optics before? Your attempts at mockery fall flat when you fail to present even a basic awareness of the issue. We all took high school physics. The cocktail napkin reflection formula doesn't explain what people complain about wrt media surfaces.

Specular reflections occur at the half-angle.
www.eng.utah.edu/~jlanders/paper.doc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specular_highlight
http://people.csail.mit.edu/wojciech/BRDFValidation/ExperimentalValidation-talk.pdf

No, it can't. Total internal reflection has nothing to do with specular vs. diffuse reflection. You're talking about combined total reflection, i.e. number of photons.

This has already been covered by at least one poster offering false "corrections".

No, the definition of "reflection" as used in discussions about shiny displays is specular reflection. You're densely refusing to acknowledge this, and you're not the only one. It's asinine, and it must stop. Absolutely no one is talking about the total amount of reflected light--they're complaining only of the specular highlights that appear on the screen at certain angles.

That's largely the point: reflected light is problematic with either a glossy or a matte surface. You can either accept image reflections on the display (and reposition to eliminate), or you can take diffuse reflections, which wash out the display and ruin calibrated displays (and recalibrate in every new environment to eliminate). Which is better for you personally is solely based on personal preference and work environment.

No one's talking about light. The same amount of light is reflected by a matte display and a glossy display. People are complaining of the images. It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp.

I did nothing of the sort.

I have no love for glass. What I have is no hatred for it, which you seem to confuse for a love of it.

Matte does interfere with the picture. It has to. You're taking a surface and texturizing with the intent of smearing light across it, which obviously interferes with the transmission of light through that surface. Panels are usually manufactured to run "hot" to compensate, so non-anti-glare, non-matte displays will need to be adjusted downward. An accurate panel with a matte surface will be negatively impacted by the application of either a matte finish or an anti-glare coating.

Glass does not cause saturation. It removes the loss of saturation caused by the matte finishing process.

There's no such thing as non-reflective glass that's optically clear. You can make less-reflective glass, but that's called a matte finish.

You know this how, or is this in your world again. Theres a difference between saying and doing. "Top Notch" review sites dont usually calibrate the screen.

Wikipedia great source :rolleyes:

Yes I do, infact I was one of the top in my year 12 physics class. Light and waves being my second strongest. Quantum and Nuclear Physics being my strongest. No they dont, thats true. You just limit yourself to specular reflection being the only thing present. That and the normal doesnt need to be half way. Only the object being in-line with the reflected rays. The General Populace complain about "specular reflection". Pros complain about what the properties of glass do to the image and the reflection cause the blacks to be whited out and the highlights over exaggerated. Unfortunately the only way around that is no covering which is unsafe.

I didnt say "Specular Reflection" I said reflection. Umm yes refraction does when you account for the total system.

I never did say that it wasnt specular reflection. I said that there is more than one aspect at work. You refuse to accept that. In theory you can assume that there is no other aspects at play. In real life that is not the case.

I was talking light being emitted onto the screen from a light source. Im not talking about the back lighting of the screen.

Yes you did.

I never said Matte didnt interfere with the picture. Youre assuming again.

What puzzling freakouts? All I have to do is scan notes from last year. I dont have a scanner though. I could download the GIMP but the GIMP sucks on Mac OSX. More insults dont add to the discussion our our argument. Further calling of names will be reported to mods. I also dont know if youve realized but Ive put redundant information in my last post. See if you can spot it with a level head.
 
Are you suggesting reflections don't occur when the display is at a certain angle..? That is only true if there is one light source. You aren't taking into account multiple light sources.

Multiple windows, a skyline etc. There is plenty of places I've been to where I've not been able to adjust my screen so I can actually work without getting reflections from everything.

Working with the screen pointed 30 degrees down isn't a solution..

He assumes a lot doesnt he.
 
Are you suggesting reflections don't occur when the display is at a certain angle..? That is only true if there is one light source. You aren't taking into account multiple light sources.
Not exactly, no, that's not what I'm saying. It doesn't matter whether there is one light source or many. What matters is the angle of the light source and the angle of the viewer. If you adjust the screen to be perfectly square to your line of sight, there is a specific set of locations from which light can be an issue, and adjusting the display is only a matter of getting the light source out of those particular locations relative to the screen.

It truly is a matter of adjusting the angle of the notebook to be exactly plumb with your line of sight, rotating the base, and adjusting the notebook's distance by an inch or two. Once you know what you're doing, it only takes a moment, even in a corner office with two walls of windows.

There are a few environments where it's not possible to do so, just as there are some environments that have too much ambient light for a matte finish display, anti-glare or otherwise, to work. You have to choose which is best for you based on your work environment, as I've been saying all along.

With a wall of bright windows in my office, I personally find it easier to adjust my glossy machine than my matte one--which is simply not bright enough at any angle. Other people may not have to work in such intense ambient light, but might have a line of irregularly-positioned track lights that are hard to avoid. They'd personally be better served by a matte display.

I have and use both, and each has its strengths and weaknesses, and neither is inherently better or worse at anything performance-related solely because of its surface finish.
Working with the screen pointed 30 degrees down isn't a solution..
That would hardly be an ergonomically appropriate position.
You know this how, or is this in your world again. Theres a difference between saying and doing. "Top Notch" review sites dont usually calibrate the screen.
The links, with gamut comparisons to sRGB, are already in this thread. Rob Galbraith is a respected photographer who knows how to calibrate the screen, which is, in fact, the point of his review.

If you're going to accuse him of not calibrating the screen, have at it, but be prepared to be confronted with your apparent refusal to read the posted reviews. You're arguing without knowledge and without apparent purpose to boot.
Wikipedia great source
In this particular case, the information it contains is correct, and there are two academic papers also linked to confirm it. Or is MIT not good enough for you? Compared to your...nothing, it'll do fine. My general preference to avoid Wikipedia is well-known, but as a primer for novices, it'll do.
Yes I do, infact I was one of the top in my year 12 physics class. Light and waves being my second strongest.
Congratulations. That's not sufficient for this discussion--but it does indeed show that you know the basic formula for combined total reflection. Now if only you'd realize that total reflection requires a few more steps into optics and physics. The Fresnel equations seem to have been lost on you.
You just limit yourself to specular reflection being the only thing present. That and the normal doesnt need to be half way.
The discussion is about mirror-like properties of shiny screens. That is, by definition, specular reflection. Specular reflection, by definition, occurs at the half-angle.
Pros complain about what the properties of glass do to the image and the reflection cause the blacks to be whited out and the highlights over exaggerated.
The whole point of using glass is that it doesn't do anything to the image, unlike both an anti-glare coating or a hypersaturation coating. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, because you're frankly unfamiliar with the issues, terminology, and technology of this subject.

The reflections don't cause anything to be over-exaggerated on a glossy surface. You're referring to the effect of a matte display, which redirects some of the reflected light and interferes with transmission from the monitor itself. A glossy display shows surface reflections that cover the image. Seeing the reflection is an obvious cue to reposition the display. A matte display may not offer any such indication of ambient light washing it out, but it too may need to be repositioned.
I didnt say "Specular Reflection" I said reflection.
And for at least the ninth time in this thread, combined total reflection is not an issue when dealing with mirror-like reflection. Stop trying to make it one.

General reflection theory provides absolutely no insight into the cause or management of specular reflections, i.e. the only ones that are bothersome on glossy displays.
I never did say that it wasnt specular reflection. I said that there is more than one aspect at work. You refuse to accept that.
No, in fact I am the only one who is discussing the entirety of the issues in displays. You're just throwing sand.
I never said Matte didnt interfere with the picture. Youre assuming again.
Allow me to quote you: "The good thing about Matte is that it doesn't interfere with the picture." That statement is false, but you definitely said it.
What puzzling freakouts?
It's motulist's post I'm replying to. I'll let it speak for itself.
Further calling of names will be reported to mods.
Further? One would first have to start. Feel free to report to the moderators. There is nothing for them to address in my posts. The same can't be said for a few others.

Notice how you've not actually provided any counterarguments, or even bothered to check on the review. You've not demonstrated any knowledge whatsoever of the optics of media coating, and you've certainly not presented a grasp on the needs or utility of true professionals. Now you're just turning to bogus threats to report me. When you can put together a rational, supported argument, this can continue.

A rational, supported argument does not involve trying to turn the discussion of the mirror-like properties of glossy displays into one of the index of refraction or how much total light is bounced off the surface, which for hopefully the last time, is of no particular use in this discussion.
 
Not exactly, no, that's not what I'm saying. It doesn't matter whether there is one light source or many. What matters is the angle of the light source and the angle of the viewer. If you adjust the screen to be perfectly square to your line of sight, there is a specific set of locations from which light can be an issue, and adjusting the display is only a matter of getting the light source out of those particular locations relative to the screen.

It truly is a matter of adjusting the angle of the notebook to be exactly plumb with your line of sight, rotating the base, and adjusting the notebook's distance by an inch or two. Once you know what you're doing, it only takes a moment, even in a corner office with two walls of windows.

You also need to bear in mind - no (human) user is ever going to motionless for any lengthy period of time. Every time he/she sat upright, or slumped down a little, slid a little to one side or other on their chair or leaned forward or backwards - then he/she might well need to adjust the notebook/screen again. That could be many dozens of times a day.

In addition, if there are multiple lightsources it becomes more difficult to manoeuvre the screen so none of them are at those difficult angles.
 
You also need to bear in mind - no (human) user is ever going to motionless for any lengthy period of time. Every time he/she sat upright, or slumped down a little, slid a little to one side or other on their chair or leaned forward or backwards - then he/she might well need to adjust the notebook/screen again. That could be many dozens of times a day.

In addition, if there are multiple lightsources it becomes more difficult to manoeuvre the screen so none of them are at those difficult angles.

That's only an issue if the user is, in fact, placing the notebook on their lap, which has been highly discouraged for a very long time now (in addition to the inherent danger to the laptop and the poor viewing angle at most positions, there is danger especially to men in the... lap area). Of course, if you move a reasonably small distance and pick up a reflection again, it might be a good idea to then adjust the display slightly more than the previous time, but it should be rare that slumping slightly or any other small motion like you're referring to should cause a reflection to be visible again.

Basically, all you matte lovers need to realize that there is nothing inherently bad about a glass display (and in fact some nice advantages). It may not be your preference, but stop trying to convince everyone else that there's something objectively wrong with having glass over the display. I'm not going to try to convince you that having an anti-glare coating on the display is wrong either.

jW
 
Basically, all you matte lovers need to realize that there is nothing inherently bad about a glass display (and in fact some nice advantages). It may not be your preference, but stop trying to convince everyone else that there's something objectively wrong with having glass over the display. I'm not going to try to convince you that having an anti-glare coating on the display is wrong either.

jW

And all you glossy lovers need to stop telling us how the reflections aren't that bad and that we should be able get used to them. As I've said before, I shouldn't have to "get used to" anything on a $2k laptop, we should have the option to get what we want just as you should have the option to get what you want.
 
And all you glossy lovers need to stop telling us how the reflections aren't that bad and that we should be able get used to them. As I've said before, I shouldn't have to "get used to" anything on a $2k laptop, we should have the option to get what we want just as you should have the option to get what you want.

So buy a different 2 grand laptop. No one forces you to buy Apple. :p
 
While I personally am really "meh" about the whole Glossy vs Matte issue (I have never seen the difference and I certainly am not a photo expert or whatnot) I still am for this decision if it is true. People will complain no matter what, but this is something that is relatively easy to address and should make people happier with an addition BTO choice.
 
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