Apple vs. Samsung Lawsuit Over iPhone Design Officially Reopened

[paul4339]

It's not disputed if Samsung copied or not.
It's already decided what aspects Samsung copied and which aspect they didn't (at least from a legal perspective).

This is about damages and how it's calculated.

 

[JHankwitz]

This entire case has now existing for over half as long as the iPhone has. It's been around longer than the era of the iPod (2001 - 2007).

And it will continue for as long as Lawyers are able to make money off of it. The ultimate cash-cow. The world's second oldest profession, like the oldest profession, will continue to find ways to make more until the customer's money dries up.

 

[69Mustang]

I agree with your argument, but the other problem here is that we're ignoring missed profits and bought time in the market. What Samsung did was sell iPhone copycats at much much lower margin than Apple does, which means that the missed profit opportunity for Apple was potentially much higher. The other thing that these calculations do not account for is that Samsung's steeling enabled them to stay alive and competitive in the market for years until they could figure out how to work around the patents and create their own iconic phone design. It's impossible to predict exactly what would have happened in the parallel universe where Samsung didn't copy Apple, but I suspect Apple would be sitting on $50 - $100 billion more in cash.

What you're saying requires a lot of leaps in logic that aren't based on any factual information. Lower margin? Samsung the company has overall lower margins than Apple. That doesn't mean Samsung sold their flagship devices at a lower margin. Remember Sammy sold budget, mid-tier, and flagship devices. Missed profit? This presumes customers chose the S2 instead of an iPhone. More likely they chose an S2 instead of an HTC, Motorola, or any of the other Android phones. Allowed them to stay alive? In 2011-12, Samsung already owned the Android market. Would Apple have sold more iPhones to people buying Androids? That's debatable. Android users have always been accused of being spec whores and tinkers. If that's was the case, what do you think they would be buying, an iPhone 4/4S or this S2?
2011 S2

 

[manhattanboy]

Would you give up on a chance to win $399 million?! Over someone who stole your ideas?

They are not going to win that much. Moreover the law firms are not operating on a contingency basis for this case. So in real life, its pretty much 10's of millions to lawyers with likely nothing resulting out of it in the end for either Apple or Samsung. How is that productive for either company?

 

[dontwalkhand]

The funniest part of this all that Samsung did copy Apple in the early days. Fast forward today it's Samsung who's got innovative ideas and Apple same old, same old (+ expensive).

Samsung is just as expensive. Though I really wish iPhones got MST from Samsung Pay. It'd make Apple Pay pretty much work anywhere.

 

[Delgibbons]

And yet the new iPhone 8 is going to use curved screen tech from the s6 and s7 edge made by....Samsung.


Bizarre.

 

[Klyster]

If this is a new case, I wonder if the prototypes that were not allowed in the original case, will be allowed?

 

[lauramayer]

Yuck. No one like copy cats!
[doublepost=1484346583][/doublepost]

I'm wondering if Apple and Sammy aren't already tired of this

The only winners are the lawyers

 

[ActionableMango]

Anyone talking about rounded corners does not understand the comprehensive evidence in this case.

There is a ton of evidence against Samsung, and that's why Apple rightly won. In my mind there are three particularly damning pieces of evidence that came to light in the case:

1. By far the worst in my opinion is the design presentation where Samsung management had hundreds of slides, with each slide showing a specific design feature of their phone and how it compared to the iPhone. On almost every single slide is some sort of instruction from management to engineering to "make it more like iPhone". Over and over and over again, from hardware design to software features, to UI, and even down to the little things like color tint and icon orientation..."More like iPhone".
2. The internal Samsung memo that kicked off the whole effort to change their smartphones is replete with language about how they needed to stop what they are doing and copy Apple.
3. The memo from Google to Samsung where Google warned Samsung that the designs they were seeing from Samsung were way too similar to the iPhone. So even Google, Samsung's partner and Apple's competitor, felt that Samsung had gone too far in copying Apple.

My "favorite" story about Samsung:

One day in March 2011, cars carrying investigators from Korea’s anti-trust regulator pulled up outside a Samsung facility in Suwon, about 25 miles south of Seoul. They were there ready to raid the building, looking for evidence of possible collusion between the company and wireless operators to fix the prices of mobile phones.

Before the investigators could get inside, security guards approached and refused to let them through the door. A standoff ensued, and the investigators called the police, who finally got them inside after a 30-minute delay. Curious about what had been happening in the plant as they cooled their heels outside, the officials seized video from internal security cameras. What they saw was almost beyond belief.

Upon getting word that investigators were outside, employees at the plant began destroying documents and switching computers, replacing the ones that were being used—and might have damaging material on them—with others.

A year later, Korean newspapers reported that the government had fined Samsung for obstructing the investigation at the facility. At the time, a legal team representing Apple was in Seoul to take depositions in the Samsung case, and they read about the standoff. From what they heard, one of the Samsung employees there had even swallowed documents before the investigators were allowed in. That certainly didn’t bode well for Apple’s case; how, the Apple lawyers said half-jokingly among themselves, could they possibly compete in a legal forum with employees who were so loyal to the company that they were willing to eat incriminating evidence?​

 

[code-m]

Yeah, the drama continues.

 

[9081094]

The answer to both of these questions is well documented and the fact that you are asking it on MacRumors means you are not aware how much this site has become a magnet for trolls or you just like baiting them (which, admittedly, has a certain entertainment value).

Here is a very well researched article about the famous "Jobs visit to Xerox PARC". Here is an article about the Mac OS vs. Windows issue.

There is no single sentence answer to any of these issues however it is worth noting what seems to be escaping most posters on this forum that it has already been decided that Samsung blatantly copied the iPhone, it is simply a matter of damages.

I'm so tired of for putting out persons with different opinions as trolls. It's too easy. Use arguments instead please, thank you
[doublepost=1484348500][/doublepost]

Samsung is just as expensive. Though I really wish iPhones got MST from Samsung Pay. It'd make Apple Pay pretty much work anywhere.

Not over here it is. Apple is considerable more expensive than Samsung. Also Apple services are not in sync with what google has to offer.

 

[fyun89]

And their cheap marketing continues...

 

[iZac]

Before everyone complains, remember this is Apple and Samsung helping the fragile US economy by keeping underpaid lawyers in work that might otherwise be living destitute.

 

[DVNIEL]

Pay them back in the form of Galaxy Note 7's.

 

[WRChris]

The funniest part of this all that Samsung did copy Apple in the early days. Fast forward today it's Samsung who's got innovative ideas and Apple same old, same old (+ expensive).

Explosive phones aren't really innovative either(joking). Not sure what ideas Samsung has had that were innovative, specs that look good on paper? Or is it the oled panel that is innovative? TW is 100% not innovative. They piggybacked on apples hardware designs and use googles OS. Where is the innovation Samsung has done?

 

[Labeno]

It is not illegal to copy ideas. It I only illegal when you copy patented ideas and we have seen many of Apple's patents ruled invalid.

You forgot copyright law, which protects works of text and works of art.

 

[coolfactor]

Yes stealing isn't right, how dare you steal rectangular shapes and rounded corners? Please this so ridiculous, by this metric Apple stole phablet idea from Samsung, and Samsung should sue right?

Fun living in your world? Just take one look at those two phones. It goes WAY beyond just shapes, but a complete replica of an entire device — form and functionality. Samsung needs to pay up, because they built up their mobile business on Apple's back, while Apple PAID them for their technology and services (chips, manufacturing, etc.).
[doublepost=1484354099][/doublepost]

Oh the irony...Samsung makes phones with the better design these days...

And you are here because.... you have a Mac, or are you "stuck with a poorly-designed iPhone"?

 

[Billsofat]

Samsung should stop giving apple phone parts... Or supply them with Note 7 batteries.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Loool these two like a bitter divorced couple :'D

Yeah, where one abducted their firstborn and moved to Korea...
[doublepost=1484357652][/doublepost]

Is this case going to ever be settled?Can't wait to see how Macrumors members feel about this latest development.

Maybe Apple will FINALLY get some Justice, that's how.

I mean, really? Who can look at those two pictures and NOT see design-theft?
[doublepost=1484357974][/doublepost]

The funniest part of this all that Samsung did copy Apple in the early days. Fast forward today it's Samsung who's got innovative ideas and Apple same old, same old (+ expensive).

ORLY?

The GN7 (remember, the "Grenade Edition"?) actually costs MORE than an iPhone 7 PLUS. And, with TWICE the battery capacity, actually gets a little LESS run-time than the 7 Plus!!!

And according to review after review, the difference in performance between the iPhone 7 and the S7 is simply embarrassing. For Samsung.

Oh, and guess what? The S8 is rumored to have a USB-C connector ONLY. No headphone jack.

Sound familiar?

And then, let's talk about the ghost of Windows-Past Malware-fest that is Android...

Yeah, where do I sign?

 

[djgamble]

Is this case going to ever be settled?Can't wait to see how Macrumors members feel about this latest development.

I don't think the author quite understands how the legal system works (they're clearly not a lawyer and have just thrown around words like certiorari, amicus curiae , overturned...etc).

My understanding is that Apple have won the case in terms of the substantive legal issues. The issue is now what's called a 'quantum meruit'. That is, the Court is trying to decide how much money Samsung owes Apple.

There's no exact science in this, but that's what we're waiting for - damages to be decided. As there is no exact science, Apple are calling in 'amicus curiae' (i.e. 'friends of the court') to backup their claim that Samsung should essentially have to give them all their profits from all phones that copied the iPhone (which I'd suggest is ~10 years of profits and would kill Samsung).

I think it's a tough call for the Court because the decision is pretty damning - Samsung's last ~10 years worth of profits and their entire foothold into the 'premium' phone market relied on copying Apple in a significant way (whether you agree or not - the Court has made this decision already and it cannot be appealed). But... is it fair for the Court to kill a successful company over this (and open the door for just about every Android handset manufacturer to also die out)? I dunno.

Different type of IP but with music, copying a few bars then writing a new song on top (and playing your own version using different instruments...etc) can be enough for you to lose all your profits from that song. In my opinion, IT deserves the same kind of treatment.

IMO Samsung and Google have in my opinion done to Apple what the Verve did to the Rolling Stones. That is... stolen a catchy tune, played it using a different instrument and added some cheesy lyrics on top. The Samsung Galaxy is a Bitter Sweet Symphony...

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Yawn.... ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz

As I remember SCO vs IBM. 13 years and counting.

Except SCO was a desperate, lying, litigious scam-artist.

Whereas, Apple is a CLEAR victim of IP Theft.

 

[trifid]

Fun living in your world? Just take one look at those two phones. It goes WAY beyond just shapes, but a complete replica of an entire device — form and functionality. Samsung needs to pay up, because they built up their mobile business on Apple's back, while Apple PAID them for their technology and services (chips, manufacturing, etc.).

I disagree, superficially they look similar, functionally they are worlds apart, a grid of icons and colors DOES NOT determine usability and experience, the apps behave and look completely different and that's what really maters. There a ton of products that look similar in appearance, just look at Google's Pixel, or HTC's phone, they look extremely close to iPhone, yet they each offer a different experience.

Google Pixel vs iPhone:

HTC vs iPhone

 

[MacBH928]

personal best interest is an interesting idea...

We will sue one of our main suppliers that we rely on to make a living...
And Samsung will continue to supply products to Apple while they continue to lose money in court for lawyers

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

It is not illegal to copy ideas. It I only illegal when you copy patented ideas and we have seen many of Apple's patents ruled invalid.

I remember Jobs' initial Keynote, demoing the original iPhone. Apple was still smarting from the B.S. judgment that Creative won against Apple's iPod for Apple SUPPOSEDLY copying Creative's "non-obvious" organization of Genre, Artist, Album, Song in their **itbox Music Player.

About halfway through the demo, Steve was ticking-off the innovations in the iPhone, and he looked at the audience and got one of those wry-smiles, saying "And you better believe that we have Patented this thing six-ways from Sunday!"

So, yeah, there wouldn't have BEEN a lawsuit originally if Apple HADN'T Protected SEVERAL aspects of the iPhone with both Design and Utility Patents.
[doublepost=1484358635][/doublepost]

Yes stealing isn't right, how dare you steal rectangular shapes and rounded corners? Please this so ridiculous, by this metric Apple stole phablet idea from Samsung, and Samsung should sue right?

OMG! STOP IT! JUST. STOP!!!

LOOK at those two images! DO you REALLY believe what you are saying?!?

 

[iGeek2014]

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.