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ChatGPT says:

What if Ed Zitron is completely right?​

If his thesis is correct, I think the likely outcome looks like this:

  • ❌ Standalone AI subscription businesses struggle or consolidate.
  • ❌ Companies building massive AI data centers may lose hundreds of billions.
  • ✅ AI models continue to exist.
  • ✅ Apple continues shipping AI features, but relies heavily on efficient on-device models and selectively uses cloud AI when necessary.
  • ✅ Cloud AI becomes a premium feature for tasks that truly require it.
In other words, Apple is probably one of the companies best positioned if the economics of cloud AI turn out to be worse than expected. It has a profitable hardware business that can absorb AI costs, whereas companies whose entire business depends on selling AI services have much less room for error.

My personal take? Back in the late 90's and early 2000's CPUs reached a state where you couldn't keep increasing the frequency rate due to energy and heat, so they became more efficient by instead making multicore processors.

In the same way AI will eventually get to a point where the energy it consumes it too much so they will have to make more efficient LLM models that can work on less powerful hardware. People running LLMs at home are doing just this thing.

Regardless, when AI hits that point, there will be a massive crash of memory prices when all the AI data centers go bankrupt and stop buying up all the hardware. In the end, it will work out for the better of us all.
 
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My point was: one company has lasted for over 30 years... and another company was gone in less than 3 years.

So this is what I'm asking: 👇

How many of these AI companies will last for 30+ years?

And how many of these AI companies will fizzle out in just a few years?

🤔
You're correct, I misread the initial post and I think you replied before I modified my comment 🙂
 
Interesting insights -- thanks for picking this up, MacRumors. Two observations:

-- It may be that in retrospect, one of the smartest and best things Tim did was to resist the urge to go all-in on AI. The pressure to spend Apple's money to win the AI arms race must have been intense. While staying out of the arms race, Apple is in a strong cash position to use pretty much anyone's AI product as it sees fit. And it can still buy a fully-developed AI product/company if it chooses.

-- This is spot on regarding the Vision Pro. It was simultaneously something that felt like a real leap forward but in a package that virtually no one would want to buy (or even use for long). If Apple can shrink that down to a pair of glasses, or even shrink something that borrows a bit of that, it will really have something. Vision Pro kind of reminds me of the Lisa, which was a beautiful and very advanced computer for its time, but which was the wrong package/price point. It ended up being essentially a proof of concept for the Mac.
 
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Pumping billions of dollars into an industry where roi is questionable isn’t a recipe for success.
I have been saying this for the past couple of years. Not until this year have any business analysts asked the obvious question, what is the ROI?
 
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People seem to think that the “AI bubble bursting” somehow means “AI goes away.” Stop and think. There was a dot.com bubble. It burst. Some dot.coms died. Others flourished in the aftermath. You are more dependent on dot.coms today than you were before the bubble popped. The pundits who said the internet would not be profitable and would largely go away were completely mistaken.

So, why is that? The companies themselves were overvalued, not the technology or the market. Investors had assumed that those companies were nearly guaranteed future profits. That drove larger investments, which in turn drove larger valuations. Rinse/repeat until investors noticed the returns weren’t materializing as quickly as they expected. Valuations collapsed. The internet did not. The opportunities and the markets were still there. What was left was an enormous amount of infrastructure, software, intellectual property, engineering talent, and business experience. Much of that investment became a sunk cost.

This is one of the things bubbles often do. They finance the rapid build-out of infrastructure far beyond what can be justified by near-term demand. Investors lose money, but assets are left behind that can be used for decades. Railroads, fiber-optic networks, and internet infrastructure all had bubbles. They did not vanish because their investors overpaid for them. They became the foundation on which later companies built profitable businesses.

I expect the AI bubble to follow a similar pattern. Some AI companies will fail. Some valuations will collapse. Some investors will lose fortunes. But the GPUs, hyperscale datacenters, models, algorithms, software, research, and engineers will still exist. None of that disappears just because the stock market reprices the companies that built them. Apple, with its cash reserves, will probably be a beneficiary of the collapse by being able to cherry-pick technology and talent at fire-sale prices.

A bubble is a statement about asset prices. It is not necessarily a statement about the long-term value or viability of the underlying technology.
 
People seem to think that the “AI bubble bursting” somehow means “AI goes away.” Stop and think. There was a dot.com bubble. It burst. Some dot.coms died. Others flourished in the aftermath. You are more dependent on dot.coms today than you were before the bubble popped. The pundits who said the internet would not be profitable and would largely go away were completely mistaken.

So, why is that? The companies themselves were overvalued, not the technology or the market. Investors had assumed that those companies were nearly guaranteed future profits. That drove larger investments, which in turn drove larger valuations. Rinse/repeat until investors noticed the returns weren’t materializing as quickly as they expected. Valuations collapsed. The internet did not. The opportunities and the markets were still there. What was left was an enormous amount of infrastructure, software, intellectual property, engineering talent, and business experience. Much of that investment became a sunk cost.

This is one of the things bubbles often do. They finance the rapid build-out of infrastructure far beyond what can be justified by near-term demand. Investors lose money, but assets are left behind that can be used for decades. Railroads, fiber-optic networks, and internet infrastructure all had bubbles. They did not vanish because their investors overpaid for them. They became the foundation on which later companies built profitable businesses.

I expect the AI bubble to follow a similar pattern. Some AI companies will fail. Some valuations will collapse. Some investors will lose fortunes. But the GPUs, hyperscale datacenters, models, algorithms, software, research, and engineers will still exist. None of that disappears just because the stock market reprices the companies that built them. Apple, with its cash reserves, will probably be a beneficiary of the collapse by being able to cherry-pick technology and talent at fire-sale prices.

A bubble is a statement about asset prices. It is not necessarily a statement about the long-term value or viability of the underlying technology.
Very well articulated. While it's not guaranteed that things always result in a bubble the size or likeness of the dot-com bubble or the housing debt crisis, many things especially in technology often follow the Gartner hype cycle in some form or another:
0x0.jpg.webp
 
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Very well articulated. While it's not guaranteed that things always result in a bubble the size or likeness of the dot-com bubble or the housing debt crisis, many things especially in technology often follow the Gartner hype cycle in some form or another:

Most recent image from Gartner's IG account related to Agentic AI. They claim:

Agentic AI has reached the Peak of Inflated Expectations, reflecting extraordinary market attention and aggressive adoption intent.

According to Gartner’s Hype Cycle for Agentic AI, the focus is shifting from initial excitement about AI agents to a deeper understanding of how agentic AI technologies are maturing.

747998442_18543381094076077_9101618746687606115_n.jpg
 
Nice interview!

I think one thing that is still missing to me, and nobody talks about, is that whatever the fate of AI is, hyperscalers will own pretty much all the hardware out there.

On the other hand, I think customer market for computers will not recover after this, we will never see 64G of ram for $120 and prices will never go down.

All together, makes me fear a future where hyperscalers will try to sell us simply terminals under subscription to being able to access the computing power on the Cloud. I hope not, but all is going into that direction.
I had wishful thinking that AI bubble crash would let tons of RAM etc flooding the market, drastically lowering their costs so they became more affordable again. But I think you are right: hyper scalers simply uses those hardware resources they hoard today into something else instead of selling them. It’s a grim picture and the winter for consumer electronics.
 
I get your points but it doesn’t mean AI isn’t going to “burst”.

Dot coms are still around but that bubble burst. I’m sure AI is here to stay but it doesn’t mean it’ll be a smooth ride.
I don't think the AI "bubble" will burst. I do think it will deflate. Anthropic is the preferred and in most cases superior enterprise AI solution. Google has Gemini inserted into most of what they provide and thus they have most consumer needs covered. Grok is a farce, as is Meta AI. They're both selling the compute assets that they have clearly over-invested in.

I question the long term viability of OpenAI. It almost seems like when the music stops, they'll be the ones without a chair.

I honestly don't know if the Apple approach to AI was a conscious strategic decision, some dumb luck, or (probably) both. Apple has a capable, privacy-forward AI at the OS level across their entire ecosystem. They can license anyone and everyone's models if they see fit, all while developing their own. That is a GREAT place to be strategically.
 
If you don't know, that tells me you don't work in any industry directly involved with building AI(s) or taking advantage of AI(s) in their products and services.

AI existed long before LLMs in the form of machine learning/learning engines and will only continue to evolve. My company has been heavily invested in and utilizing said technology for nearly a decade, always expanding its use as the tech advances, ensuring our products and services are cutting edge, industry leading offerings trusted by every Fortune 500 company, various governments, and countless enterprise-level players around the globe.
I work for a medical imaging AI company. I can tell you without hesitation that the current valuation of general, consumer-facing AI is MASSIVELY overstated. In specific areas like tech and healthcare, the value is immense, and will continue to grow.
 
to me, AI is like the dawn of the internet. Even if it’s not profitable, and even if the main driving force behind it goes down (like OpenAI), in some form it is here to stay. It’s too valuable. It’s disruptive technology and whoever can make it stay long term wields great power.
 
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How long was Amazon in the red? For how many years did they focus solely on growth?

I think only three AI providers will survive:

OpenAI, Anthropic, and Gemini.

How many active users do they have?
How many would be willing to pay 10–20€ per month if free access were increasingly restricted or eliminated?

All these people are hooked on AI for now, but what about later?

Who wants to go back to Google Search and wade through 10 pages of results?

Don’t forget:
People pay ridiculous prices at Apple for iPhone cases and stuff.
im quite happy I still use the old google search method and don't rely on chatgpt or any other ai apps to do my research or work. My wife on the other hand, she will struggle if they suddenly massively up the costs of subscriptions and its no longer reasonably affordable for her to keep using
 
I honestly think this is the best piece I’ve ever read on MacRumors.

More of this please and less annoying PR stuff for toxic companies like Amazon and Meta.
 
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Everyone who is calling for or expecting an AI bubble is missing one very important point. It's already too engrained in the average person. Students are learning this in their classrooms. People are using it for everything from research projects to asking relationship advice. It's become a friend, confidant, doctor, assistant, for too many people for it to just go away.
Well, I think there are two bubbles people are talking about:

With the bubble you refer to, regarding whether a massive number of people currently using AI will lose their interest in and use for it, you're right, that won't happen. At the very least, many people now using it but losing interest are likely to change their minds once AI has been better ironed out, and people who permanently don't want anything to do with it won't be needed by the AI companies to stay in business (once they figure out how to do that).

The other bubble many people see on the horizon is the financial one, which is what Ed Zitron is addressing in this interview, in which the massive capital expenditure by current AI companies probably can't pay off in the form of profits, or likely even break even, at which point the massive investments propping up these companies will taper off, maybe very fast, and some of these companies might be forced to sell themselves at a great loss (though their founders and early investors will make out like bandits).

That would be fine, in a sense, if the result is what happened with the early railroads, the initial large buildout of fiber optic cables, etc., in that they eventually became essentially utilities after the expense of their buildout contributed to their crash, but AI data centers as currently constituted with today's technology use too many resources every second they're running for their transition to utilities to follow quite the same path as the railroads, etc. AI data centers' excessive, constant, unsustainable resource consumption (much more costly even to just maintain post-buildout than what other technology buildouts required) is another contributor to their seemingly inevitable bust. For AI as a utility to really take off will require developing much lower power chips, more efficient AI software, etc., and using them to replace all the chips and software currently sitting in the AI data centers. This is kind of like the hardware transition that was needed to get the Internet to really take off, in which dialup modems, routers, and copper wires were replaced with DSL modems, then high-speed cable, satellite, optical fiber, etc.
 
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I still think the whole token economy thing is kind of a fake issue. A token isn't a real unit of cost like a gallon of gas or a kilowatt-hour of electricity. The clearest proof is that AI companies can charge wildly different prices for the exact same number of tokens depending on how they're processed.

That said, calling it a fake issue doesn't mean there are no real costs behind it. It feels more like the early days of mobile phones and the internet, when people were paying for text messages, call minutes, and data plans.

Right now, most of what users are paying for is basically helping cover the infrastructure. See the problem? If users are helping build the whole thing, then the cost is obviously going to depend on how much money each company has and how easily it can raise more.

That leads to another issue. If a company's financial strength changes how much it costs to run and build the service, then this whole market is clearly still being built. So saying the AI industry or LLMs are simply losing money feels like a huge jump.

He brings up OpenAI losing money, but honestly, I think that's a pretty weak argument. OpenAI's actual AI business seems to be making plenty of money. The ugly numbers mostly come from R&D spending and the cost of growing so fast. That's obviously real, but using that alone to say OpenAI is doing badly feels unfair and way too early.

As for the claim that enterprise demand isn't real, Microsoft and Google aren't perfect examples either. They usually mix AI numbers together with their existing cloud business. People have criticized them for that before, and personally, I think they do it on purpose.Still, even if we don't know exactly how much of their cloud profit comes from AI, the idea that enterprise demand is just an illusion doesn't really make sense anymore.

Anyway, I think this is a great time for all kinds of theories and opinions. But making a final call right now is way too early, especially when we're still basically paying to build the infrastructure.

Man, when you think about it that way, the people paying for this stuff right now are kind of getting a rough deal. But if nobody jumps in early, there might not be anything useful later. Guess that's just how it goes.

So as far as the author's main argument goes, he thinks the costs are high and hard to bring down. Honestly, that part disappointed me a little, because he doesn't seem to think this is only a problem right now. I think that's a pretty careless assumption.

He also argues that the revenue we're seeing today doesn't prove this is a workable business, because he doesn't see any clear business model behind it.

But here's the thing. Who really knows what the future is going to look like? Before the 24-hour economy became normal, most people probably thought there was no reason for stores to stay open after 8 or 9 PM. After all, hardly anyone went shopping that late. But now we already know how that turned out.

So what exactly is the business model going to be? That's a really hard question. You're not going to figure it out by reading a few articles, checking some comments, or arguing with an AI for a while.

The market size, the trends, the limits, and everything around them are still moving and changing. That's why I can't accept the idea that AI is going to become a bubble just because nobody can point to one clear business model right now.

I can agree with one thing though. The amount of hot money in this market is completely insane. Investors aren't just looking for stories anymore. They're making stories up.

But that and the real direction of the market or the economy are often two very different things. That's just dumb money and investors getting so desperate to make more money that they start making up stories, overpricing everything, and eventually creating a bubble.

I completely agree that this can happen, because we've seen it happen plenty of times.

But saying the AI industry itself will become a bubble because it doesn't have a clear business model yet? Come on. We already have more than enough people staring into crystal balls and pretending they can see the future.

I looked into this a little more, and I think there's another part that's worth questioning. It's the whole subscription and free usage argument.

If the idea is that giving users a lot of usage somehow proves the product isn't attractive enough on its own, I'm not really convinced. It actually reminds me of insurance.

In a simple example, an insurance company should lose money, right? But obviously that's not how it works. It would only collapse if everyone made a claim at the same time.

So when SemiAnalysis tests a subscription by pushing it all the way to the limit, then calculates how much that usage would supposedly cost, it makes the company look like it's giving away a crazy amount for free. But honestly, that looks a lot like insurance to me.

Heavy users can get that much value because the company knows most people won't use every last bit of it. As long as the AI company has done a decent job with its costs and pricing, wouldn't that already be part of the plan?

Also, one heavy-use test isn't a very good sample of the whole customer base. It only tells us what happened in that one use case. Saying the product must not be attractive because one person can max it out and get a lot of value feels like saying insurance isn't attractive because the payout can be much bigger than the monthly payment.

Unless everyone makes a claim at the same time, insurance companies can usually offer a deal that looks almost too good to turn down. That's kind of the point.

There's also another issue with taking subscription tokens and converting them directly into the listed API price. I don't think that makes much sense from a business point of view either.

With an API, customers only pay when they actually use it. But if you're running a SaaS company, of course you'd rather have people subscribe. Yeah, I know everyone hates subscriptions, but they do have a cute side sometimes.

The more subscribers you have, the better your margins can get, and your income and costs also become easier to track. That gives the company more room to offer subscribers a much better deal than the regular API price. And what happens if too many subscribers start using every last bit of their plan?

Ta-da, here come usage credits. Haha. These companies aren't stupid.
 
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I still think the whole token economy thing is kind of a fake issue. A token isn't a real unit of cost like a gallon of gas or a kilowatt-hour of electricity. The clearest proof is that AI companies can charge wildly different prices for the exact same number of tokens depending on how they're processed.

...

Too measured and reasonable, not enough doom and perennial crabbiness. Prepare for the disapproval crew.
 
The whole thing reminds me of the dot com bubble. There were crazy evaluations of companies losing money, and everyone was overexcited. The bubble burst and a lot went bust, but what followed was a new generation of companies that were profitable. I suspect something similar will happen with AI.

Also not forgetting that machine learning is not just LLMs, and there is already a lot of useful implementation in background services.

And then finally, if you’ve got good enough language models that can run locally (which do appear to be on the way) then that obviates the need for the huge data centres.
 
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Isn't anybody going to mention the arguably even more fundamental problem? Where is AI going to get its inputs when it's driven everyone who actually produced it out of business? When newspapers go bust because people are just asking Grok to steal the news for them, then who will actually be on the ground digging up new information? Until AI can do that, then it seems to be sowing the seeds of its own destruction, whilst unfortunately taking a lot down with it.
 
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