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jav6454

macrumors Core
Nov 14, 2007
22,303
6,256
1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
Fair enough. But, you were exactly the type of person the H1-B program was designed for, in theory. However, the vast majority of H1-B visas are abused. They are grabbed up by outsourcing firms and a few very large corporations; IBM being notorious for this. And here's how the abuse goes: they bring in new graduates, fresh from India, for example; have them shadow an American worker for some time, learning his job; then send them back to India and fire the American.

Currently, the H1-B is designed to be entirely corporate driven. H1-B via holders can only work for the company that gets them the visa. That sounds as though it is "keeping down immigration", but in fact it works against AMERICAN workers. The H1-B workers are essentially slaves who have no wage bargaining power; therefore they are much cheaper than American workers. Why wouldn't a corporation prefer that?

The H1-B program would be much better if it were re-purposed to be more about attracting high skilled foreign workers to American and increasing the pool of top talent. All or some of it could be replaced by such things as:

- Work permits for new STEM graduates of American universities. We train the top foreign talent in our best universities; and rightfully so, since the top talent is what keeps these universities great. But why don't we retain it? A total waste.

- Easily-obtained visas and work permits for foreigners with advanced STEM degrees from top foreign universities. These should NOT be tied to a specific company.

- Some flexibility of H1-B visas to move with the worker, even if s/he switches to another company.

As you say, we don't have enough native-born STEM talent. STEM workers in general are critical, because each STEM worker creates a whole bunch of supporting jobs. If you have the primary STEM workers elsewhere, the supporting jobs move as well. So it is worth bringing in additional STEM workers for their overall beneficial impact on the job market and economy.

Oh boy! Let's get on with this on.

What companies do with the H1-B is horrendous. It limits true H1-B potential. You know how hard it was for me to obtain mine? Not only that, it drove me crazy seeing people jump the line. So yes, I agree with you on the Indian (and Chinese) abuse. That has to stop, but not at the cost of limiting an already limited program.

Yes the H1-B is dependent on the employer, to a certain degree. If the employee or visa holder is smart, he/she can entirely make the H1-B their own. How? Well, if you know you are going to be "abused" due to your status, then proactively look for a new company to work for. You don't need to redo the entire process. All that needs to be done is inform ICE of your new job change and they'll re-emitt your visa.

Yes it's a complete waste. My brother grauated Magna Cum Laude (under a scholarship, he din't pay a dime except for taxes) at my same university as a Mechanical Engineer. His offer from the US government? Go back home, and yes, he is still back home working outside the US for another company that competes against US companies. Way to go Uncle Sam! You wasted money on my brother and kicked him out!

Agreed on your last point.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2016
205
5,287
Facebook is trying to provide employees with housing at a reasonable cost. It is a golden handcuff, not to isolate them from others.


Proves my point even more. They are the reason the cost of living is so high here but they don’t want to burden their employees with the problem they caused. Screw everybody else who lives in the area.
 
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konqueror4u

macrumors regular
May 18, 2016
119
77
Programmers Heaven
Outsourcing will occur but it's not a long term solution. Eliminating H1-B abuse will bring back US tech.

The US tech worker is a national resource. We already lost our manufacturing base. Let's not lose our technical base too.

I think there should be some H1-B to fill in as the program was originally defined although the H1-B abuse needs to be stopped.
I think the other way if they were allowed to bring cheaper labour to US Manufacturing jobs would have stayed in US. Tech companies are not relying on one market any more they have major markets outside US. If the talent available worldwide comes up with competitive products in their own markets US companies cannot compete with them. For example Apple is loosing its market share to Chinese companies. Do you know the best dynamic city in the world I mean #1 which are driven by technology and innovation is not in US.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...-world-and-they-re-not-the-ones-you-d-expect/
 

chelsel

macrumors 6502
May 24, 2007
455
229
I'm a US citizen and have worked in tech for 20 years. I've worked with many great and not so great H-1B visa recipients. The H-1B program is a valid resource for companies but there is admittedly lots and lots of fraud with the program as well. The green card process is also fraught with problems. I've literally sat with an immigration attorney who told me how to get around the "hire Americans first" policy... simply post the job opening in obscure and never read publications... utter fraud.

If H-1B was such a great program I would think that other countries had similar visas... but from my research, they don't.
 
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jerryk

macrumors 604
Nov 3, 2011
7,418
4,206
SF Bay Area
Proves my point even more. They are the reason the cost of living is so high here but they don’t want to burden their employees with the problem they caused. Screw everybody else who lives in the area.

I happens everywhere high paying jobs are common. NYC, Austin, parts of Dallas, Seattle, DC, and West Texas and the Dakotas during the oil boom, etc. Could be worse like Singapore, Tokyo, Switzerland. It the free capitalist market at work.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,029
3,138
Not far from Boston, MA.
I think everyone will agree that the phase in was terrible :).


Well, at least this demonstrated gross level of incompetence in execution has made people sit up and take notice, and early. Let me say, I was most definitely NOT a fan of the policies of Reagan; but Reagan surrounded himself with an extremely smart, experienced team, and as a result his policies were competently executed. As a result, he had a great deal of impact (which, in my opinion was to a great extent negative).

Now, this current guy, is just the opposite. His staff his full of noisome naifs; he has prioritized as his first acts things that create the most sound and fury; get him the most attention; and, perhaps most importantly, play to his core base. There's a lack of sound policy, well-thought out execution, and consideration of consequence. I'm sure his hard-line supporters (who would be making excuses if, as he said, "shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue"*) have convinced themselves this is all great; but for anyone else, they've got to at least be having serious doubts.


*For example:
- He didn't really do it--fake news by CNN
- Whoever he shot deserved it (for some character flaw, TBD)
- Hillary shot Vince Foster-- why aren't you talking about that?
 

konqueror4u

macrumors regular
May 18, 2016
119
77
Programmers Heaven
I'm a US citizen and have worked in tech for 20 years. I've worked with many great and not so great H-1B visa recipients. The H-1B program is a valid resource for companies but there is admittedly lots and lots of fraud with the program as well. The green card process is also fraught with problems. I've literally sat with an immigration attorney who told me how to get around the "hire Americans first" policy... simply post the job opening in obscure and never read publications... utter fraud.

If H-1B was such a great program I would think that other countries had similar visas... but from my research, they don't.
http://fortune.com/2016/11/18/baidu-ceo-overseas-tech-workers-silicon-valley-china/
They are waiting!!!
 
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NoNothing

macrumors 6502
Aug 9, 2003
453
511
Not saying there is NO local talent. There is not enough local talent. (Engineers etc.)

Plus, obviously corporations judge with dollars who is talent.

While one should take things person by person, there are plenty of examples how foreign talent can turn out better than American:

Take Microsoft .
The new guy is Indian (Pretty sure Bill Gates had something to do with that!) and seems to have put a spark into MS.
Steve Ballmer almost killed MS! (Despite Harvard etc. education)

I don't think you read my post and just repeated the old line. There is absolutely the talent available locally but you can get a H1-B worker for 30-40% less. I think you will notice I have specifically mentioned there has been some very good foreign talent but when 80+% is foreign and exceptional local talent has been "played off" to make way for foreign talent, there is substantial abuse in the system.
 
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Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,029
3,138
Not far from Boston, MA.
I'm a US citizen and have worked in tech for 20 years. I've worked with many great and not so great H-1B visa recipients. The H-1B program is a valid resource for companies but there is admittedly lots and lots of fraud with the program as well. The green card process is also fraught with problems. I've literally sat with an immigration attorney who told me how to get around the "hire Americans first" policy... simply post the job opening in obscure and never read publications... utter fraud.

If H-1B was such a great program I would think that other countries had similar visas... but from my research, they don't.


There are other countries that have immigration policies that actively solicit highly skilled people-- it's a much better approach. The US university system trains more than enough STEM graduates; but many US graduates hold foreign passports, and they have no priority over other immigrants in obtaining the legal right to work here.
 

usarioclave

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,447
1,506
What would be amusing is if the regulations stated that an H1B worker must be paid as much as the prevailing wage in the MSA that your CEO lives in.

That would get rid of the cost delta right there.
 
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NoNothing

macrumors 6502
Aug 9, 2003
453
511
So if they cannot find cheaper talent here. They might choose to outsource right are we fine with that? Are we ready loose both on the taxes and the indirect jobs created by them?

Do you think Child Labor laws should be eliminated since they could be a cheaper source of labor and taxes? Of course, every company wants to pay their top engineers only $10,000/year while the top executives get $10's of million/year for "cutting costs". There is a balance that has to be found.

Personally, I want to open the flood gates and let any one with STEM to come over and work. With free mobility of their employment (not the near slave labor they work with now). Open up the job market to be competitive where all skilled workers play on an equal footing with the same job mobility options.
 
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btrach144

macrumors demi-god
Aug 28, 2015
2,851
6,942
Indiana
As a tech worker at a large tech company, I can confirm there is wide spread abuse of the program. Tech companies are using the visa program to bring in foreign labor at a fraction of the cost for American labor.
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2016
205
5,287
Oh jeez, talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. How about "off-shoring" some of those Bay Area jobs... to Ohio?

That's fine too. If tech is the future there is no reason the majority of it needs to be done in one small area of the planet. "Off-shore" some of it to Detroit. They could definitely use it.
 
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wallysb01

macrumors 68000
Jun 30, 2011
1,589
809
Let's match your anecdotal evidence with mine. I am an H1-B visa holder; furthermore, I am also an electrical engineer that works as Digital Lead for my company. Why? Because they couldn't find an American with my qualifications or education background necesary to fill in the post. Let me rewind back a bit to my commencement ceremony. Out of 1034 students at my university, only 34 were engineer graduates. 6 were electrical and not one was American, we were all foreign born from Latin America (me), India, and China. The other engineers for other majors? Only 2 were American, and they obtained Civil. The rest in the ceremony? Well, they were all Business, English, Geography, Fine Art, Photography, Education majors and yes those were filled with Americans. Funny story.

Oh oh! Forgot to mention, I graduated in 2011, but trust me, things haven't changed much.

See above. Or rather, just go to a campus, you won't see Americans doing STEM. Or if you do, they are all freshmen/early sophmores who eventually drop out into business or some other Liberal Arts degree. See above.

You apparently have no idea how bad this move would be or how dire the consequences can be.


This is complete rubbish. Foreign STEM graduates are up only slightly more than American STEM graduates in recent years. More importantly, CE programs in the US are heavily impacted, especially in higher tier universities. We have plenty of US kids trying to get into these degrees and getting turned away. I know some extremely bright and hard working kids via friends and family that got turned down and have moved into lower paying STEMs with higher demands for schooling (i.e. biomedical, where you're not like to be making 100K+ salary until you're in your mid 30s only after a PhD or MD and prolonged residency/postdoc periods, rather than say mid-late 20s after just a masters in CE and limited actual job experience). The problem with US supply of CE majors has very little to do with Americans not wanting to start or being able to complete these degrees. At least not any more so than other STEM fields or non-Americans. The problem is that the Universities haven't been able to keep up with demand. And its very difficult to fill instructor needs for upper division courses in sufficient volume.

And as for if H1Bs are a net good thing, read this: https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pdf
 

sudo1996

Suspended
Aug 21, 2015
1,496
1,182
Berkeley, CA, USA
Sorry Fear Mongers, securing the borders won't affect the hiring process for new hires. Keep telling that lie and I'm sure people will start to believe it.
I'm pretty sure any immigration or foreign work policy is going to affect hiring as corporations figure out what is most efficient for them. Not saying it's a good or bad policy, but it's probably going to negatively impact Apple in the short term.
 
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sudo1996

Suspended
Aug 21, 2015
1,496
1,182
Berkeley, CA, USA
That's fine too. If tech is the future there is no reason the majority of it needs to be done in one small area of the planet. "Off-shore" some of it to Detroit. They could definitely use it.
Especially since it's one of the fields where you can easily work remotely, I don't understand why everyone (including me) has to go to San Francisco to do it. SF is fun, but I don't consider it the optimal place to work. Though a lot of the hardware-involving systems work is outsourced to places like Texas for good reasons.
 

saudade

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2015
371
222
Hey Apple!

Stop acting so entitled to things and stop treating the visa program as an affirmative action program.

There are plenty of qualified US Citizens who are ready to work. You just choose not to hire them.

Omg r u a trump supporter??
 

Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,005
8,345
New Hampshire, USA
Would some from India that was your age have a job when you do not?

Of course not but that's a bad argument. Companies are abusing the H1-B by getting cheap foreign workers to replace local workers of all ages. It's tough enough finding work as an older worker but it's near impossible when companies are hiring cheap foreign labor under H1-B.
 

sudo1996

Suspended
Aug 21, 2015
1,496
1,182
Berkeley, CA, USA
One big reason is the loss of intellectual property/working knowledge when those workers go home.
This is big to me. Sorry to say, but I don't trust IP protection anywhere outside of non-Asian first-world countries, except maybe Japan. And even in the U.S., it's not good to have workers entering and leaving tech companies so frequently due to the IP involved.
 
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