Apple's Fines in Dutch Antitrust Case Hit 50 Million Euros

[AppliedMicro]

But Apple does pass this charge to developers, all payment platforms do.

What I meant: Apple doesn't want consumers to compared different payment methods and pricing side-by-side:

"1 month premium subscription:
a) 9.99€ through Apple In-app purchase
b) 7.99€ through outside payment with iDeal/Debit Card"

They'll be trying to divide the customer base and steer customers towards the "international" version of the app.

 

[Realityck]

I trust Apple's payment system more than I trust any of the other big names and far more than I trust independent ones not to get hacked or exploit my data.

What makes Apple's payment system anything more secure then credit card you are utilizing? Its just a digital store that processes the same type of transactions. Most credit card providers are banks which incorporate various protections to protect their clients 24/7. I guess you're trying to imply that all encrypted web based transactions carry more risk then using a iOS/IPadOS app?

 

[4jasontv]

Apologies, there are too many people to keep a good account of who’s replying to me.

There were previous “app stores” in different forms before Apple brought it to the iPhone and iPod Touch.

Agreed. There were. But I don't see how that matters. What about the precedents established by hardware manufacturers to restrict software distribution without OEM approval? That came before the App Store as well.

What I meant: Apple doesn't want consumers to compared different payment methods and pricing side-by-side:

"1 month premium subscription:
a) 9.99€ through Apple In-app purchase
b) 7.99€ through outside payment with iDeal/Debit Card"

If they can charge different prices then they need to toss that rule out now because that doesn't allow consumers a true choice.

 

[icanhazmac]

What makes Apple's payment system anything more secure then credit card you are utilizing? Its just a digital store that processes the same type of transactions. Most credit card providers are banks which incorporate various protections to protect their clients 24/7.

Why act like all payment processors are the same? They aren't.

Do you really trust FastSpring, the payment processor for Carbon Copy Cloner, a company that no one has ever heard before more that you trust Apple with your personal info? Yes, credit cards have protections built in but who compensates me for my time when my credit card info is "data breached" onto the dark web, while I am on the road for business and have to cancel my card and get a new one?

No company is hack proof but some have more expertise and resources than others that can be applied to protecting my information.

PS - Payment processors are not the only ones that can get hacked and spread your data around, the indie dev that sells via their own website, do you really trust that their servers are as secure as Apple's?

 

[ct2k7]

Why act like all payment processors are the same? They aren't.

Do you really trust FastSpring, the payment processor for Carbon Copy Cloner, a company that no one has ever heard before more that you trust Apple with your personal info? Yes, credit cards have protections built in but who compensates me for my time when my credit card info is "data breached" onto the dark web, while I am on the road for business and have to cancel my card and get a new one?

No company is hack proof but some have more expertise and resources than others that can be applied to protecting my information.

do you trust banks?

 

[4jasontv]

I’ve heard of a lot of payment processors, and trust them the same. I don’t really trust Apple as much as having gone through the process of getting something refunded, it was a pain. For apps, this was outside of the 14-day policy that is often restricted for some users.

In most cases, I just go to the vendor, and they can do the refund for me.

Your experience with Apple as a payment processor is poor because you tried to get a refund outside of a return policy?

 

[ct2k7]

You’re experience with Apple as a payment processor is poor because you tried to get a refund outside of a return policy?

Outside the refund policy was a very specific thing, I am not eligible for the 14 day refund policy per Apple, which was successfully contested.

Going back to payment processing, I have a lack of trust for fully integrated solutions. Maybe it’s an engineering thought, maybe I am just cynical.

 

[Wildkraut]

Why act like all payment processors are the same? They aren't.

Do you really trust FastSpring, the payment processor for Carbon Copy Cloner, a company that no one has ever heard before more that you trust Apple with your personal info? Yes, credit cards have protections built in but who compensates me for my time when my credit card info is "data breached" onto the dark web, while I am on the road for business and have to cancel my card and get a new one?

No company is hack proof but some have more expertise and resources than others that can be applied to protecting my information.

PS - Payment processors are not the only ones that can get hacked and spread your data around, the indie dev that sells via their own website, do you really trust that their servers are as secure as Apple's?

Fastspring untrustworthy?
You’re so amusing! ?

Then all these companies must be crazy by offering their services over Fastspring.

 

[Realityck]

Why act like all payment processors are the same? They aren't.

Do you really trust FastSpring, the payment processor for Carbon Copy Cloner, a company that no one has ever heard before more that you trust Apple with your personal info? Yes, credit cards have protections built in but who compensates me for my time when my credit card info is "data breached" onto the dark web, while I am on the road for business and have to cancel my card and get a new one?

No company is hack proof but some have more expertise and resources than others that can be applied to protecting my information.

You do know that Bombich Software was founded 2002. Thats 20 years ago. That's 5 years before Steve Jobs announced the first iPhone running iPhone OS 1. It would be another year that App Store came into existence.

So are you now going to prop up Apple over everyone else in the software development community because iOS/iPadOS security mandates the use of the App Store for all purchases? If you feel more comfortable with that fine, but don't expect a lot of agreement with that.

 

[boss.king]

So sick of this crap, want alt-stores and alt-payments go buy Android. I am not looking forward to the future experience that idiots are looking to legislate into existence.

Alternatively, you could just stop reading these stories.

 

[djphat2000]

Easy solution: comply. Let this ONE country be a very public guinea pig. Either:

• Nearly all iPhones in this country will be destroyed by everyone taking advantage of the new option OR
• Some iPhones in this country will be destroyed by some taking advantage of the new option OR
• Nearly nothing will happen and all of the spin about the certain cataclysm that will follow such an option will be seen for what it likely is: far, far overblown.

Debatable. One will not know the outcome of any without going down one of those roads.

We ALL have Macs running almost the same OS. Those Macs can buy/install Apps from an iOS-like store completely controlled by Apple or Apps direct from third parties. Are all Macs completely destroyed by us all having that kind of store flexibility already?

Built with Mac OS X technology, YES. Built to work on a mobile device and not a full desktop computer.
The phone has different needs and requirements. For this specific argument, it can't use the same exact OS as the desktop. It needs to be custom for the device(s), which is why it has it's own name iOS/iPadOS/TVOS/WatchOS.

Sure they could all run a full desktop OS, but interacting with it would be completely wrong.

How does Apple address this situation on Macs? They pop up a warning about installing apps from unknown sources. Then it's on the Mac owner to proceed or not proceed. If they proceed and the owner is actually installing every computer virus ever created, that's clearly on the owner. Apple could send a "we warned them" notice to itself so that when this person is calling Apple for help, Apple customer service will know that software was installed from questionable sources.

They are also requiring Apple protect the users and developers just as well as they do today without having to worry about 3rd party stores on iOS/iPadOS. They are not treating it as a desktop OS. This is more work for Apple not less, and for no extra benefit. Which is why I've stated that Apple should provide a blank OS with no Apps other than a choice to download your browser of choice. Everything else is a side load. But, someone else pointed out that it is not good enough under the new EU law. So, yeah.....

Has the flexibility to purchase Mac Apps from wherever brought all Macs to their knees? Not at all.

But, it's not like we have all he apps right? I mean having it open like MacOS is today has not brought about this renaissance of development on the Mac Platform. Apple was going to usher that in with the M1 chips. So you can now run (potentially) all iOS/iPad OS apps on the Mac.

Have some Macs been compromised by that flexibility? Yes. iOS devices will likely be the same.

One of the things they are trying to avoid. And rightfully so. Apple would rather it be safe by default. That is what they sold you.

Most will probably continue to get apps as they do now. Those concerned about safety will continue to get their apps from what they believe is the safest source. Some of those less concerned or too dumb or naive may- in fact- compromise their iDevices.

And blame Apple for it. Thanks EU.

Here's a chance to show the world how "terrible" it would actually be for a finite group of people to facilitate competition... just like all of us already have with our Macs. If it actually is a disaster, a slice of one relatively small group of people will suffer the consequences, learn from their mistake and not make it again.

Why can't we just learn from it before making the mistake? We know exactly how this will play out. Let's just not do the dumb thing, maybe?

On the other hand, if iOS goes as macOS is already, the flexibility to purchase from more than one source will likely deliver better prices and more money actually reaching the developers instead of a company already richer than any other.

I will point back to my previous point of MacOS not having all the apps and they have been open forever. But, we know the MacOS is less safe than iOS and is open. And iOS has more development and it's closed. Can't we just understand that fact? Why is that so hard to see.

Before it's forced on Apple by many countries, here's an easy opportunity to prove the disaster... or reveal the hype is false. If disaster, other countries wanting the same may pull back and preserve the "as is." A very simple test will clearly prove it if it will be as spun.

Governments are slow to change. Quick to do something stupid.
Changing one line of code could break many different things. It's not something to do lightly or because some dumbass told you to do so because they think it will be fine.

 

[4jasontv]

do you trust banks?

Do I trust Wells Fargo? Hmmm...

Outside the refund policy was a very specific thing, I am not eligible for the 14 day refund policy per Apple, which was successfully contested.

Going back to payment processing, I have a lack of trust for fully integrated solutions. Maybe it’s an engineering thought, maybe I am just cynical.

I am curious why you don't trust fully integrated solutions. I am the exact opposite. When more than one party might be responsible I assume no party will accept responsibility. I trust companies like Apple and Amazon because I don't have to know why the issue occurred to identify who is expected to fix it. Integration comes with limitations but is essential for accountability.

I just spent a year dealing with Samsung, Nvidia, and Microsoft pointing fingers at each other. I don't care why the system broke down but that's all they wanted to focus on.

 

[ct2k7]

Well, at lease we know iOS isn’t infallible

 

[ct2k7]

Do I trust Wells Fargo? Hmmm...

I am curious why you don't trust fully integrated solutions. I am the exact opposite. When more than one party might be responsible I assume no party will accept responsibility. I trust companies Apple and Amazon because I don't have to know why the issue occurred to identify who is expected to fix it.

I just spent a year dealing with Samsung, Nvidia, and Microsoft pointing fingers at each other. I don't care why the system broke down but that's all they wanted to focus on.

I don’t trust Wells Fargo either I bank mostly with chase and monzo in the UK.

Generally, I’ve found (when working in PCI compliant industries) that there’s a lack of complete due diligence in integrated compliant businesses. I may be wrong with Apple being all parts of the equation, but the bank, but it’s also logically easy for errors to be made in a system where there is a single controlling entity.

When the parts are separated, it is easier to blame someone else than yourself. This is where it should be theoretically to clean up, but I feel there isn’t a good pattern either way.

But it also means that larger businesses can lobby changes which affect them and not pass the cost saving downwards.

Let me finish eating dinner and I’ll continue

 

[visualseed]

No, because I should own my device. The App Store is dictating political decisions to me that I did not consent to.

And let’s be honest, I didn’t buy the phone just for the App Store.

I own my blu-ray player, but that does not mean that I own the rights to every movie I play on it. The studios and publishers that own the IP dictate how and if those movies will play on my player. They can make content non-skippable or not even playable at all if I am in the wrong region and there is nothing I can legally do about it even though I own my device, unless I "pirate" or produce my own content.

 

[Piggie]

Tell Apple they are going to fine them $1 (one single dollar) on the 1st day, and this amount will double every day.

$1 day one
$2 day two
$4 day three
$8 day four
$16 day five
$32 day six
$64 day seven

That's the first week of fines paid.
I wonder how many more weeks before Apple would start to get upset

 

[visualseed]

do you trust banks?

Some. Not All. Certainly not Wells Fargo.

 

[ct2k7]

I own my blu-ray player, but that does not mean that I own the rights to every movie I play on it. The studios and publishers that own the IP dictate how and if those movies will play on my player. They can make content non-skippable or not even playable at all if I am in the wrong region and there is nothing I can legally do about it even though I own my device, unless I "pirate" or produce my own content.

Ah but you can produce your own content and get discs from a place other than the blue-ray store (if it exists).

 

[Icy1007]

But the implementation is not practical

Yes it is. It is very practical. Managing multiple binaries is not difficult.

 

[Icy1007]

EU can fine up to 80% of Apple’s global turnover.

They can try, but they won’t succeed.

 

[Realityck]

I own my blu-ray player, but that does not mean that I own the rights to every movie I play on it. The studios and publishers that own the IP dictate how and if those movies will play on my player. They can make content non-skippable or not even playable at all if I am in the wrong region and there is nothing I can legally do about it even though I own my device, unless I "pirate" or produce my own content.

You have limited rights with any physical media you purchase per content owners. It's acceptable for unlimited personal private usage, but not to be used for group showings or making any profit from its usage. Blu-ray disks don't have AACS enabled to change content remotely to be unplayable. Blu-ray Players don't need to be connected to a IP address for media to work. Digital content is different, the iTunes content you save locally as a digital copy is tied to remote verification for authorized usage. You do notice you have a authorize this device involved with MacOS for examples associated with your Apple ID. Region lock is an initialization process that locks the player to the region it will be used in. But it can be reset by the vendor, just as there are ways to disable it. Hope this helps to clarify.

 

[visualseed]

Ah but you can produce your own content and get discs from a place other than the blue-ray store (if it exists).

I can produce my own apps for my iPhone as a developer and install enterprise apps directly with the appropriate certificate. But just as with the blu-ray player I can only do what is allowable with publicly licensed tools. I think the blu-ray consortium gets about 12 cents a disc, about $15 per recorder, and some relatively significant fee for the playback and encoding software. You would have to be way outside of the bounds of "legally licensed" to create and distribute blu-ray content that did not conform to their terms.

 

[Icy1007]

No, because I should own my device. The App Store is dictating political decisions to me that I did not consent to.

And let’s be honest, I didn’t buy the phone just for the App Store.

You did consent to it. When you bought and activated your iOS device, you consented to it. When you created/use your AppleID, you consent to it.

Just because you didn’t read what you were agreeing to doesn’t mean you didn’t consent.

 

[Icy1007]

If you refer customer to outside payment options, it's not Apple's business to charge for these transactions.
The transactions are between the app developer / service and the customer - not Apple.

Apple gets their cut for facilitating the transaction via iOS.

 

[visualseed]

You have limited rights with any physical media you purchase. It's acceptable for unlimited personal private usage, but not to be used for group showings or making any profit from its usage. Blu-ray disks don't have AACS enabled to change content remotely to be unplayable. Blu-ray Players don't need to be connected to a IP address for media to work. Digital content is different, the iTunes content you save locally as a digital copy is tied to remote verification for authorized usage. You do notice you have a authorize this device involved with MacOS for examples associated with your Apple ID. Region lock is an initialization process that locks the player to the region it will be used in. But it can be reset by the vendor, just as there are ways to disable it. Hope this helps to clarify.

What are you trying to clarify? I already know different types of media have different types of mechanisms to enforce IP rights.