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Apple's iPad NYTimes Promo Video Shows Flash Again

HTML5 + iPod / iPhone / iPad

You know, I'm a big fan of none-flash content. But I have to say that the current HTML5 Beta pages on YouTube leave a lot to be desired in my experience - long loading times, jittery video etc. I know that Vimeo is doing a better job though.

One thing that does bother me with HTML5 media on the iPhone is that Audio / Video won't play 'in-place' on the web-page, but opens the related media in the separate player. I hope they address this on the iPad at least as it will be annoying having every video / audio element have to open up in a new window.

My 2c ;-)
 
I think it's plausible there's a chance the New York Times site would serve an iPad-specific page not dependent on Flash. That would be the only logical way this would not be "false advertising".

I just tried the Times site with a guessed iPad user agent, and it still served Flash content.

Mozilla/5.0(iPad; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.21.10 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.4 Mobile/7B314 Safari/531.21.10

But since this device is still evolving in the weeks before its release, I'm wondering if anyone can claim false advertising on a product that isn't even out yet.
 
Want to get rid of Flash? Gotta start SOME time...

inkswamp said:
I hope this means Flash will be on the iPad, but I doubt it.

I've been pretty vocal in the past about my hatred for Flash. I loathe it with a passion and would love nothing more than to see it die a quick, painful death. I'm also just fine with Apple not supporting it on a mobile device if it fails to meet their demands about power consumption and user experience.

However, given that the iPad is supposed to supplant the browsing experience on a laptop--not a phone--I take the position that Apple is being absolutely moronic in excluding Flash from it. There's just no excuse. This is not a device you carry around in your pocket all day and rely on for phone calls, so power consumption is largely irrelevant. The usage would presumably center around the home or a workplace where it can be easily recharged. So even though I hate Flash, I think Apple needs to pull their head out about this and get it working on the iPad.
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to disagree with you about the iPad's need of Flash. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe you hate flash. If you hate Flash like you "admit", I'm pretty sure you'd applaud Apple for making a stand at some point. Apple has made it clear that they don't appreciate Adobe and their lackluster software. Apple likes to fix problems with their machines rather quickly for the most part. I'm also pretty sure Steve doesn't like waiting for another company to improve their software to bring the user experience to Apple's standard. Adobe is slow to release fixes and wants to access Apple's hardware level API's to do so- which isn't necessary and I agree Apple should not allow.

The bottom line is this- Flash is only alive because it's everywhere. People develop sites with Flash because over time, Flash has permeated everything. Problem is- it sucks. It uses way too much CPU cycles, hardware, and crashes a lot. If you're in Apple's shoes, you have 50m iPhone users all surfing without Flash and many people who are waiting to pick up an iPad. THAT IS A BIG FOLLOWING. Web site developers want TRAFFIC as we've seen in the news, iPhone users eat 5 times the bandwidth surfing the internet. Now with the iPad rolling out with the iPhone OS it'll mean even more users not using Flash. Apple has an ability here- to make a stand and drive a nail in Flash's coffin. You just need to hold out for a little while. Site developers will eventually drive the other nails in. Give it time.

Check out daring fireball for more info. They have some good material.
http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash
 
Please Please Keep Complaining

Hey Guys, i am an Apple fan but sometimes all companies need a kick in the bum and thats what apple need now.


Please everyone who reads this, flood messages boards and moan every moment you can because i promise you apple will listen, they need to sell these units, we are in control not them.


I agree with Jobs regarding flash, but that is not his decision to block us from having it, we should be the ones who turn flash on or off not him, stop this road that your on apple for controlling us, stop it.


Multitasking, i mean why not, how good would it be to have skype/msn in the background (even if it meant apple authorise the multitasking to certain apps.)
If they did this i would buy 6 and thats not a joke, i would love my family i.e. my wife's mum who has no idea on computers, but we could help.

If they added camera, think of what we could do, i travel on business and i could skype my family and see them, nearly face to face, and with my little girl on the way soon :) i never miss a moment :)

Having a form of Apple remote desktop so that i could help family from abroad to teach, oh its just endless.


But i promise apple i wont spend a penny on the ipads until they bring the features which should of been there in the first place, i dont want to buy a 1st generation model and then have to buy a 2nd generation because they realised they screwed up.


Everyone keep moaning they will isten.
 
Craigy said:
You know, I'm a big fan of none-flash content. But I have to say that the current HTML5 Beta pages on YouTube leave a lot to be desired in my experience - long loading times, jittery video etc. I know that Vimeo is doing a better job though.

One thing that does bother me with HTML5 media on the iPhone is that Audio / Video won't play 'in-place' on the web-page, but opens the related media in the separate player. I hope they address this on the iPad at least as it will be annoying having every video / audio element have to open up in a new window.

My 2c ;-)
Click to expand...

On an iPhone, every Youtube video is intercepted and played by the Quicktime/Youtube app (even when you turn on the HTML5 beta). Vimeo on the other hand presents the iPhone users with a special page and sends them to an .h264 video when they click play, and the video is played through the Quicktime player. So what you've been experiencing in those two cases is not HTML5 video as in "having a video player made with HTML5", it's just pure .h264 video.

On the iPad simulator, in Safari, if you turn on HTML5 for Youtube, you'll be able to play videos "in place" using the embedded HTML5 player, just like on a Mac/PC. Presumably the same will be true on the actual hardware.
 
Japanese video still shows broken flash

Well, others have said it and I quite agree - the iPad will not likely have Flash in the near future.

Out of interest and as a way of confirming whether the USA video upload is a mistake or not, I checked the Japanese version of the video. The Japanese video is essentially the English language one with Japanese sub-titles. Currently this is still showing the broken Flash version of the NYTimes homepage. If the recent upload is not a mistake, then it would be conceivable that the JP homepage will also be updated within the next few days. With the added work of affixing subtitles, it would give a clearer indication of mistake/non-mistake. I'll keep you informed.

Perhaps more interestingly, it would help to provide evidence for one of two things.
1) NYTimes has actually made the switch to something other than Flash (as the article itself says)
2) APPLE have swallowed their pride and allowed it (ok - not bloody likely)

If (1) is the case, then we may see the influence of Apple on web creators who may now start making the gradual shift away from Flash in their creations. This would of course be not very good news at all for Adobe although Jobs will be more than ecstatic to say the least! :D

Personally, without Flash, I am not buying the iPad. The internet would be the most useful tool for me on it at home, but if 70% of webpages are going to be broken, then quite frankly, it won't feel right in my hands as they claim in the video! Really, would you read a magazine or newspaper which someone had cut all the photos out of it? Maybe yes, but you certainly wouldn't buy one!
 
MacRumors said:
As it turns out, the videos are essentially mock-ups and were never purposefully intended to depict the iPad running Flash.
Click to expand...

How is it not purposeful when Apple has used the NYT content to show off capabilities of it's net-surfing devices since launch of the original Iphone three years ago, NYT has consistently been using flash on it's front page and no Apple add material makes explicit point that you can't enjoy the NYT site as it is designed to be seen?!?

At one point Apple used National Geography site to show the speed of Iphone browsing speed - not mentioning that the competing phones actually downloaded and rendered the flash content the way it was designed to done, while the Iphone displayed watered down version. Apple even had and has nerve to claim that the Iphone displays the content as it is supposed to, clearly misleading customers.

How can even most avid Apple fan keep on repeating this is not purposefully misleading customers?
 
Casiotone said:
On an iPhone, every Youtube video is intercepted and played by the Quicktime/Youtube app (even when you turn on the HTML5 beta). Vimeo on the other hand presents the iPhone users with a special page and sends them to an .h264 video when they click play, and the video is played through the Quicktime player. So what you've been experiencing in those two cases is not HTML5 video as in "having a video player made with HTML5", it's just pure .h264 video.

On the iPad simulator, in Safari, if you turn on HTML5 for Youtube, you'll be able to play videos "in place" using the embedded HTML5 player, just like on a Mac/PC. Presumably the same will be true on the actual hardware.
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting me know that - that makes much more sense.
Cheers
 
TimothyJarman said:
Hey Guys, i am an Apple fan but sometimes all companies need a kick in the bum and thats what apple need now.


Please everyone who reads this, flood messages boards and moan every moment you can because i promise you apple will listen, they need to sell these units, we are in control not them.


I agree with Jobs regarding flash, but that is not his decision to block us from having it, we should be the ones who turn flash on or off not him, stop this road that your on apple for controlling us, stop it.


Multitasking, i mean why not, how good would it be to have skype/msn in the background (even if it meant apple authorise the multitasking to certain apps.)
If they did this i would buy 6 and thats not a joke, i would love my family i.e. my wife's mum who has no idea on computers, but we could help.

If they added camera, think of what we could do, i travel on business and i could skype my family and see them, nearly face to face, and with my little girl on the way soon :) i never miss a moment :)

Having a form of Apple remote desktop so that i could help family from abroad to teach, oh its just endless.


But i promise apple i wont spend a penny on the ipads until they bring the features which should of been there in the first place, i dont want to buy a 1st generation model and then have to buy a 2nd generation because they realised they screwed up.


Everyone keep moaning they will isten.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!
 
The iPad must support Flash. Whether you hate Flash or not, Apple markets the device as "the best way to experience the web" so I believe most users will expect the iPad to show every website exactly as it is shown on their computers.
 
saving107 said:
Steve Jobs is a very persuasive man, maybe he was able convince the NYTimes to dump Flash for HTML5.



Doesn't Steve Jobs know what we want more than we do?
Click to expand...

It's hilarious that people who can't invent anything but put downs in post on the Internet are so quick to sarcasm... SJ knew we didn't need a floppy in the Mac and that USB would be a standard! There are site utilizing HTML5 NOW! HTML5 is the future and the resource hungry flash protocol is taking a back seat just like all the technologies that took a back seat when flash debuted... Times change and things move on. Time for more open standards that don't give back doors to malicious software and eat up resources. NYT could have published that page in HTML5 for the add... you never know! They want people to experience their content offerings so they will cater to the specific devices that are getting more popular. It's about progress, not what you want... at least this is a transparent user experience and doesn't need intervention on the users behalf to install a plugin like flash! HTML5 is the future of the net and it's about time adobe is put where they need to be... as an application developer and not a web standards overlord!
 
TimothyJarman said:
1.I agree with Jobs regarding flash, but that is not his decision to block us from having it, we should be the ones who turn flash on or off not him, stop this road that your on apple for controlling us, stop it.

2.Having a form of Apple remote desktop so that i could help family from abroad to teach, oh its just endless.


3.But i promise apple i wont spend a penny on the ipads until they bring the features which should of been there in the first place, i dont want to buy a 1st generation model and then have to buy a 2nd generation because they realised they screwed up.
Click to expand...

1. Actually it is Steve's decision. Steve doesn't put out a product until he feels it's ready to thrive. He doesn't want software (Flash) to the overwork the hardware (iPad) which ruins the user experience. Would YOU make a computer that was incredibly fast, efficient, and fun, and then allow a software company ruin that with software which you yourself can't fix? I wouldn't. Also, for many of whom will use the iPad, my mom, dad, etc., they possibly won't notice much. Many web sites have web sites optimized for iPhone OS which iPad will use, to view their content. AND how many iPhone users know how to turn off 3G? Let alone Flash- that they don't even care about...? Geeks like us do- what what about the lay person? I know MANY iPhone users that don't know HALF of what their iPhone can do or how to change settings. I say- leave Flash out.

2. I'm pretty sure this will come out. I am VERY excited to see this and waiting for it just as much as you!

3. Maybe you shouldn't buy the 1st gen. if you feel it doesn't fit your needs. But don't fault Apple for not pleasing everyone. Also, sorry to say, but you don't seem to be very business minded. As a producer of a product, you need to ensure a long life for said product. If you came out with everything everyone wanted in one launch, why would anyone come back for your next product?? Your shareholders definitely wouldn't like it. YOU think Apple screwed up. Apple knows everyone wants EVERYTHING in one machine. As does EVERY computer company- do you think a computer company leaves components out of their computers because they FORGOT? LOL It's planned. For capitalism. Simple as that.
 
anjonjp said:
Well, others have said it and I quite agree - the iPad will not likely have Flash in the near future.

Out of interest and as a way of confirming whether the USA video upload is a mistake or not, I checked the Japanese version of the video. The Japanese video is essentially the English language one with Japanese sub-titles. Currently this is still showing the broken Flash version of the NYTimes homepage. If the recent upload is not a mistake, then it would be conceivable that the JP homepage will also be updated within the next few days. With the added work of affixing subtitles, it would give a clearer indication of mistake/non-mistake. I'll keep you informed.

Perhaps more interestingly, it would help to provide evidence for one of two things.
1) NYTimes has actually made the switch to something other than Flash (as the article itself says)
2) APPLE have swallowed their pride and allowed it (ok - not bloody likely)

If (1) is the case, then we may see the influence of Apple on web creators who may now start making the gradual shift away from Flash in their creations. This would of course be not very good news at all for Adobe although Jobs will be more than ecstatic to say the least! :D

Personally, without Flash, I am not buying the iPad. The internet would be the most useful tool for me on it at home, but if 70% of webpages are going to be broken, then quite frankly, it won't feel right in my hands as they claim in the video! Really, would you read a magazine or newspaper which someone had cut all the photos out of it? Maybe yes, but you certainly wouldn't buy one!
Click to expand...

Don't buy it then! If looking @ flash content is your thing just use your little hacked netbook with a cracked version of OSX and explain to everyone how your positive contributions are leading to better computing experiences for users! If you don't see where I'm getting @ then this is the reason things are in the mess they're in! If watching flash is your thing there are alternatives... if it's not there are alternatives like the iPad... big deal! Some people don't buy a car as an extension of their personality... others do. So if flash is what you mainly cater to go get something that will use flash and sit on the charger! Oh yeah, ever hear of RSS? Lots of users don't want or need all the Las Vegas signage and ads... they just want to read the content their trying to get to... RSS has been very popular and for good reason!
 
There shouldn't be blank spaces on the web just because you don't have Flash installed, every GOOD developer should layer an image under the flash movie and that can be static or an animated gif. It's just good practice, in the same way that if an image isn't displayed the user will see alternative text.
 
giosaccone -> Flash won’t ever work well on any mobile touchscreen platform

Flash won’t ever work well on any mobile touchscreen platform. It’s not because of slow mobile performance, battery drain or crashes. It’s because of the hover or mouseover problem. Many (if not most) current Flash games, menus, and even video players require a visible mouse pointer. They are coded to rely on the difference between hovering over something (mouseover) vs. actually clicking. This distinction is not rare. It’s pervasive, fundamental to interactive design, and vital to the basic use of Flash content. New Flash content designed just for touchscreens can be done, but people want existing Flash sites to work. All of them—not just some here and there—and in a usable manner. That’s impossible no matter what.

Read this!
http://www.cultofmac.com/the-real-reasons-iphoneipad-wont-ever-support-flash-they-cant/31097
 
My money is on Apple 'convincing' the NYT to move to HTML5. I would think they are busy trying to spread their influence as wide as possible to ensure the best possible browsing experience.
 
I don't even see flash on the macrumors page - I've got that app that suppresses flash....
 
Well every other smartphone will soon support Flash as we've seen the demos, so basically the iPad and iPhone will be the only devices not having it soon... But it doesn't bother me since I like to enjoy the web in full, as it was meant to be, not on a limited device!
 
inkswamp said:
However, given that the iPad is supposed to supplant the browsing experience on a laptop--not a phone--I take the position that Apple is being absolutely moronic in excluding Flash from it. There's just no excuse. This is not a device you carry around in your pocket all day and rely on for phone calls, so power consumption is largely irrelevant. The usage would presumably center around the home or a workplace where it can be easily recharged. So even though I hate Flash, I think Apple needs to pull their head out about this and get it working on the iPad.
Click to expand...

Well - here are a couple of 'excuses' - flash maxes out your processor, crashes your browser and drains your battery life.

And how can Apple "pull their head out" and "get it working" when "it" isn't their software and they have no access to the development of this plug-in?
 
BigBeast said:
1. Actually it is Steve's decision. Steve doesn't put out a product until he feels it's ready to thrive. He doesn't want software (Flash) to the overwork the hardware (iPad) which ruins the user experience. Would YOU make a computer that was incredibly fast, efficient, and fun, and then allow a software company ruin that with software which you yourself can't fix? I wouldn't. Also, for many of whom will use the iPad, my mom, dad, etc., they possibly won't notice much. Many web sites have web sites optimized for iPhone OS which iPad will use, to view their content. AND how many iPhone users know how to turn off 3G? Let alone Flash- that they don't even care about...? Geeks like us do- what what about the lay person? I know MANY iPhone users that don't know HALF of what their iPhone can do or how to change settings. I say- leave Flash out.

2. I'm pretty sure this will come out. I am VERY excited to see this and waiting for it just as much as you!

3. Maybe you shouldn't buy the 1st gen. if you feel it doesn't fit your needs. But don't fault Apple for not pleasing everyone. Also, sorry to say, but you don't seem to be very business minded. As a producer of a product, you need to ensure a long life for said product. If you came out with everything everyone wanted in one launch, why would anyone come back for your next product?? Your shareholders definitely wouldn't like it. YOU think Apple screwed up. Apple knows everyone wants EVERYTHING in one machine. As does EVERY computer company- do you think a computer company leaves components out of their computers because they FORGOT? LOL It's planned. For capitalism. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

1) They might not know the reasons, but sure they will notice the "lego" brick in 70% of the pages they visit. That's the problem: this is not like OS being 64 bit versus 32 bit. This really affects people's experience.

3)No offense, but that's the most stupid "business-minded" argument I've ever heard. You make a good product putting everything you can in it for the price you think people are gonna pay. For the second generation, you polish your product: new ideas, complaints from your customers, materials and new abilities that are now cheaper, etc. You don't reserve things for a second generation so you give people what they want in little pills. If people don't get what they want, they might not buy your product. That's my case:
I don't want a device that can do very little more than an iPod touch and that actually can not substitute any of my gadgets: I still need a phone, I still need an iPod (jogging with an iPad doesn't seem right) and I still need a computer. Even I need a bag to carry it around, so I don't see how this is superior to a netbook, really. I'll buy an iPhone instead, so I can get rid of my current phone and also I can use it as an iPod when running. It's like the iPad (even with the same OS) but more versatile (phone, camera) with a smaller screen that makes it easy to transport.
 
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