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Phew. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Until you explained it so well I was really worried.

Well, this is macrumors and i try to stay away from economic theories, but you asked for it, so here we go:
Monopolies cause "allocative deadweight loss" (although its main argument applies towards state-owned enterprises)
What does that mean?

In a competitive market, producers dont have the freedom to set a price because the rival can always undercut them until the point where lowering the price will cause in a loss.
BUT the monopolist firm can decide the price it charges by varying the quantity it produces, so it will produce only up to the quantity where its profit is maximized. UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES, the level of output is lower than the socially optimal one, which is where the max price a consumer is willing to pay is the same as the minimum price that the producer requires in order not to lose money.
When the amount produced is LESS than the socially optimal quantity, it means not serving some consumers who are perfectly willing to pay MORE than the minimum price that the producer requires but who are unwilling to bear the price at which the monopoly firm can max its profit. The unfulfilled desire of those neglected consumers is the social cost of monopoly.

So basically, monopolies will start losing more money when they start raising the price since consumers will either 1) not be able to access such services (since they will only make the MIN amount for MAX price and by using calculus, you would rather spend a little more in the amount produced and make a little less profit rather than having an EXACT amount although you would make the best profit IF you sold ALL items) or 2) consumers will just stop using it since cell phone devices are not a NECESSITY but instead a WANT. do you think you will pay whatever cellphone company if the price exceeds a certain comfort zone in your income bracket? you wont.

Furthermore, I will take it one more step. Monopolies can be good. If you look at the Mexican carrier, Telcel. The year Telcel was monopolized by Carlos Slim (riches man in the world now) coverage in Mexico grew more than it did in the hands of the state. According to the "monopoly=bad" argument, service in Mexico should have dropped in every other city that is not important in Mexico's economy while service should have exploded in cities such as Mexico City and Puebla. No, it exploded in the main cities while it also exploded with the whole country

In conclusion, monopolies are only dangerous IF the monopoly is a necessity based. i.e. lets say one man owned the whole united states food supply. Then yes, monopolies would be the worst. But not cell phone companies, cmon if monopolies were SOO good for the company why would Bell even break up his own company? just for the lulz? I dont think so. Because the government told him so? I certainly dont believe it since Bell probably would have had the power to lobby his way out and in case nothing worked he couldve just brought it up to the Supreme Court.

Anyways, enough with the economics jargon. Enjoy your economics class :p
 
Well, this is macrumors and i try to stay away from economic theories, but you asked for it, so here we go:
Monopolies cause "allocative deadweight loss" (although its main argument applies towards state-owned enterprises)
What does that mean?

In a competitive market, producers dont have the freedom to set a price because the rival can always undercut them until the point where lowering the price will cause in a loss.
BUT the monopolist firm can decide the price it charges by varying the quantity it produces, so it will produce only up to the quantity where its profit is maximized. UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES, the level of output is lower than the socially optimal one, which is where the max price a consumer is willing to pay is the same as the minimum price that the producer requires in order not to lose money.
When the amount produced is LESS than the socially optimal quantity, it means not serving some consumers who are perfectly willing to pay MORE than the minimum price that the producer requires but who are unwilling to bear the price at which the monopoly firm can max its profit. The unfulfilled desire of those neglected consumers is the social cost of monopoly.

So basically, monopolies will start losing more money when they start raising the price since consumers will either 1) not be able to access such services (since they will only make the MIN amount for MAX price and by using calculus, you would rather spend a little more in the amount produced and make a little less profit rather than having an EXACT amount although you would make the best profit IF you sold ALL items) or 2) consumers will just stop using it since cell phone devices are not a NECESSITY but instead a WANT. do you think you will pay whatever cellphone company if the price exceeds a certain comfort zone in your income bracket? you wont.

Furthermore, I will take it one more step. Monopolies can be good. If you look at the Mexican carrier, Telcel. The year Telcel was monopolized by Carlos Slim (riches man in the world now) coverage in Mexico grew more than it did in the hands of the state. According to the "monopoly=bad" argument, service in Mexico should have dropped in every other city that is not important in Mexico's economy while service should have exploded in cities such as Mexico City and Puebla. No, it exploded in the main cities while it also exploded with the whole country

In conclusion, monopolies are only dangerous IF the monopoly is a necessity based. i.e. lets say one man owned the whole united states food supply. Then yes, monopolies would be the worst. But not cell phone companies, cmon if monopolies were SOO good for the company why would Bell even break up his own company? just for the lulz? I dont think so. Because the government told him so? I certainly dont believe it since Bell probably would have had the power to lobby his way out and in case nothing worked he couldve just brought it up to the Supreme Court.

Anyways, enough with the economics jargon. Enjoy your economics class :p

I like you.
 
I hate AT&T with a passion. Yet, I'd never switch to Verizon because I'm hooked on 3Mbps + speeds. They're the crack of carriers.

Don't fall for Apple's finger pointing.

AT&T does not set the price for iPhones.

Perhaps your unfamiliar with the massive control Apple has over everyone they interface with.
 
Nobody really answered my question. I hate to repost it again just trying to find an answer. I tried to call the at&t rep and they don't know what going on.

I had iPhone 3GS 32GB had it about almost a year. They let me do an early upgrade for the new iPhone 4 in June when it came out for the price of $299 with a two year agreement.

The question I have is let just say the new iPhone 5 comes out with the same price point let say June release like last year. By this new $50 thing does that mean I pay for $549 price point or can I just pay the $299 plus the two year agreement like I did last year?

Thanks guys
 
Hey people, it's inflation, get used to it. The price of everything is going up in case you live under a rock and haven't noticed.

So how much is that regular contract going up? Oh yeah, it's not. ie. it's not inflation, it's them doing it because they can nickel and dime you. Coming soon, they'll charge you per minute for calling customer service...
 
Oh come on....

Is it really necessary to upgrade your phone every time Apple release a new iPhone? Come on... this is ridiculous. I'm STILL on my 3G (no S) and I can finally say I can't wait for the 5th to come out.

I think those who buys the new generation iPhone while they are still under their 2 year contract are dummies. No offense... just wait another year and get an even better phone.

M
 
Nobody really answered my question. I hate to repost it again just trying to find an answer. I tried to call the at&t rep and they don't know what going on.

I had iPhone 3GS 32GB had it about almost a year. They let me do an early upgrade for the new iPhone 4 in June when it came out for the price of $299 with a two year agreement.

The question I have is let just say the new iPhone 5 comes out with the same price point let say June release like last year. By this new $50 thing does that mean I pay for $549 price point or can I just pay the $299 plus the two year agreement like I did last year?

Thanks guys

If the iPhone were to come out in June, you would not be able to get the $299 price with a new two year agreement. You would have to pay the $549 if you want the new phone immediately.

The reason that AT&T was so generous with their upgrades last summer is because they knew that the iPhone was coming to Verizon and they wanted to lock in as many new two year contracts as possible.

Here's what you do if you want the $299 price and you are not eligible:

1) Open a new line on your account. That will get you the new iPhone and the $299 price. You will have to get a new number tough.

2) Next, call and cancel the line on your 3gs. The ETF should be about $205.

3) Sell your iPhone 4 on Ebay or Craigslist. If it's in really good shape, you should be able to get $400-$450 easy. This will cover your ETF and leave you about $200 extra.
 
I think those who buys the new generation iPhone while they are still under their 2 year contract are dummies. No offense... just wait another year and get an even better phone.

M

I've had every single iPhone released. Just sold my Verizion 32gb iP4 for $630 when I bought it BNIB off CL for $450. You don't have to be a dummy to enjoy new electronics.
 
Seriously.

For those having a hissy fit

The idea of paying $50 more makes some have a hissy fit while MOST are right to complain about it in a normal, reasonable way.

AT&T is obviously more than legally able to do this but it is obvious to anyone that they are doing it strictly to add more $ to their pockets. And the response to that will be that they are allowed to and that EVERYONE wants more money. Yes, and consumers are allowed to complain when companies do something STRICTLY to make them pay more.

There is really no reason for AT&T to do this other than to make consumers pay more. When AT&T does this, they should expect a backlash
 
The idea of paying $50 more makes some have a hissy fit while MOST are right to complain about it in a normal, reasonable way.

AT&T is obviously more than legally able to do this but it is obvious to anyone that they are doing it strictly to add more $ to their pockets. And the response to that will be that they are allowed to and that EVERYONE wants more money. Yes, and consumers are allowed to complain when companies do something STRICTLY to make them pay more.

There is really no reason for AT&T to do this other than to make consumers pay more. When AT&T does this, they should expect a backlash

You cut off the rest of the point (you didn't even bother to quote the rest of the sentence.. you could have at least done that and bolded the part you wanted to address).... which I noticed no one addressed including you. You cut off the part where I was addressing those saying they were going to Verizon over this (which I call throwing a hissy fit since the only reason to do that cause they'll get even less of a early upgrade discount is cause you are wanting to spite AT&T). Who doesn't even let you get any discount for any early upgrades so in that respect they are worse than AT&T. So how does having a hissy fit and going to Verizon help those people who are that upset they are going to Verizon?

Plus I disagree that this is solely just to make more money (or that it is the only reason that could be why they are increasing prices). Prices of *everything* is going up these days. Which means AT&T's prices are going up. They just might be finding it is not feasible to allow people to upgrade early with that much discount.
 
I cut it off b/c it was irrelevant. Not because I was avoiding it...and come to think of it, what exactly was avoided? If some want to go to Verizon, so be it. It may cost them more money but some leave for the principal of it. If my unlimited got cut off, I would move to Verizon in a heartbeat even though it would cost me a bit more. I would not want AT&T getting my business anymore.

You mentioned people hissy fitting (for whatever reason) and I mentioned that many do throw but many others are throwing them for legitimate reasons

Oh, AT&T isn't doing this for money? What exactly went up cost wise with AT&T and the iPhone 5?
 
I cut it off b/c it was irrelevant. Not because I was avoiding it...and come to think of it, what exactly was avoided? If some want to go to Verizon, so be it. It may cost them more money but some leave for the principal of it. If my unlimited got cut off, I would move to Verizon in a heartbeat even though it would cost me a bit more. I would not want AT&T getting my business anymore.

You mentioned people hissy fitting (for whatever reason) and I mentioned that many do throw but many others are throwing them for legitimate reasons

Because I was aiming that at people who were throwing a hissy fit and going to Verizon. So your point had nothing to do with mine!! I wasn't addressing everyone upset with the price increase. ANd yes, I do think going to some one who will end up being worse than the company you are pissed at in the regards of what you are pissed at as throwing a hissy fit! It would be one thing if you were changing and Verizon cost more but you were pissed at AT&T cause you hated their customer service. But being pissed cause they made a deal they had less of a deal and going to a place that doesn't even offer that deal in the first place? I call that throwing a hissy fit and making no sense.


Oh, AT&T isn't doing this for money? What exactly went up cost wise with AT&T and the iPhone 5?

Oh, cost of running business? Cost of upkeep of equipment, cost of upkeep of building and building rent. Cost of wages because as prices go up everywhere cost of living goes up therefore you end up giving people a pay reduction if you don't reflect cost of living increases in wage increases? Not everything is tied down to just the prices of the phones (after all, it's not just the iphone that is increasing in price). And their cost of running a business will reflect in their prices. They aren't a charity and if their costs increase, they will reflect that in prices to the extent that they can do it without losing too much revenue (they do keep in mind what will keep them the most profit and that does include losing business).

Oh, and let me add, yeah, you're right, they are doing it for the money. So is Verizon, so is Apple. Everything a business does is for the money. That is what they are there for. To make money so their employees can afford to buy stuff and make a living. You're living in a dream world if you think any business is there to be nice to you.
 
Because I was aiming that at people who were throwing a hissy fit and going to Verizon. So your point had nothing to do with mine!! I wasn't addressing everyone upset with the price increase. ANd yes, I do think going to some one who will end up being worse than the company you are pissed at in the regards of what you are pissed at as throwing a hissy fit! It would be one thing if you were changing and Verizon cost more but you were pissed at AT&T cause you hated their customer service. But being pissed cause they made a deal they had less of a deal and going to a place that doesn't even offer that deal in the first place? I call that throwing a hissy fit and making no sense.

Yes, it had a lot to do with them. Many who are leaving have a legitimate gripe with AT&T and if they want to take their business elsewhere b/c a purely financial decision by AT&T, so be it. Even if the finances may not add up at first. Taking your business elsewhere IS what many want to do.

As I said above, if AT&T cancelled my unlimited and I was left with 2 similar choices (between AT&T & Verizon) BUT would need to spend extra with Verizon due to swithcing...I would do it in a heartbeat even with it not making much financial sense at the time.

So yes, that was directly at what you were saying.

Oh, cost of running business? Cost of upkeep of equipment, cost of upkeep of building and building rent. Cost of wages because as prices go up everywhere cost of living goes up therefore you end up giving people a pay reduction if you don't reflect cost of living increases in wage increases? Not everything is tied down to just the prices of the phones (after all, it's not just the iphone that is increasing in price). And their cost of running a business will reflect in their prices. They aren't a charity and if their costs increase, they will reflect that in prices to the extent that they can do it without losing too much revenue (they do keep in mind what will keep them the most profit and that does include losing business).
Ah ok, so you have nothing. Just the same old line used by AT&T whenever they raise the price

Gotcha

The fact that you wrote the "Everyone wants money" line shows me how far over your head my point went.
 
Yes, it had a lot to do with them. Many who are leaving have a legitimate gripe with AT&T and if they want to take their business elsewhere b/c a purely financial decision by AT&T, so be it. Even if the finances may not add up at first. Taking your business elsewhere IS what many want to do.

Of course that is their choice but my point is to leave AT&T because they increased a price to go to some one who has an even more expensive price does not make sense to me at all. Now if there were other issues, sure.


Ah ok, so you have nothing. Just the same old line used by AT&T whenever they raise the price

Gotcha

The fact that you wrote the "Everyone wants money" line shows me how far over your head my point went.

Of course since I don't work there i don't know what all their expenses are. But you can't say just cause the iphone stayed the same price doesn't mean their expenses have gone up. You really don't understand running a business if you think cost of an item is only affected by how much that item cost the business (and that was the proof you gave to me, that the iphone hasn't gone up in price, that AT&T is solely doing this cause they can and not cause they are reflecting their own price increases).

They have to reflect all of their costs in that price to make a profit. And no, they aren't there to be nice to you. Their prices go up, unless they have some reason to believe they'll lose more business than they will make up by price increase, your prices are going to go up. At some point, regardless of if they think they will lose business they will have to increase the price solely cause they'll lose money otherwise. IT seems you think they should only raise prices at this point. Sorry, they are there to make a profit. They will weight what giesv them the most profit. When they give you a price cut, it's not cause they are being nice. It is cause they think that price cut will drum up enough business to eventually make more profit than they would if they didn't do that price cut.

And my point culminates in that while no, I don't have proof this isn't just cause they can (and you definitely don't have proof cause what you said totally doesn't stand up to reason at all and shows no understanding of running a business), I could easily buy that their prices have increased given that there is a lot of inflation going on (I work retail and i see it in our own prices going up at my store as well as when I buy stuff). If nothing else, they need to make more profit to make the same amount of money as a year ago (as I said, when it comes to inflation, having your wages stay the same = a decrease in pay as your wage doesn't go as far).
 
Of course since I don't work there i don't know what all their expenses are. But you can't say just cause the iphone stayed the same price doesn't mean their expenses have gone up. You really don't understand running a business if you think cost of an item is only affected by how much that item cost the business (and that was the proof you gave to me, that the iphone hasn't gone up in price, that AT&T is solely doing this cause they can and not cause they are reflecting their own price increases).

They have to reflect all of their costs in that price to make a profit. And no, they aren't there to be nice to you. Their prices go up, unless they have some reason to believe they'll lose more business than they will make up by price increase, your prices are going to go up. At some point, regardless of if they think they will lose business they will have to increase the price solely cause they'll lose money otherwise. IT seems you think they should only raise prices at this point. Sorry, they are there to make a profit. They will weight what giesv them the most profit. When they give you a price cut, it's not cause they are being nice. It is cause they think that price cut will drum up enough business to eventually make more profit than they would if they didn't do that price cut.

And my point culminates in that while no, I don't have proof this isn't just cause they can (and you definitely don't have proof cause what you said totally doesn't stand up to reason at all and shows no understanding of running a business), I could easily buy that their prices have increased given that there is a lot of inflation going on (I work retail and i see it in our own prices going up at my store as well as when I buy stuff). If nothing else, they need to make more profit to make the same amount of money as a year ago (as I said, when it comes to inflation, having your wages stay the same = a decrease in pay as your wage doesn't go as far).

Nobody is arguing that GENERALLY SPEAKING prices increase over time...or that most value in business increases over time. This line that I am arguing either is ridiculous

I am speaking about THIS $50 increase. There is absolutely no reason for AT&T to do this other than to simply get $50 per consumer KNOWING many will break it for the next iPhone. Is it their right? Sure. Can people be miffed about it knowing that AT&T simply did it to get extra $$$? Absolutely

This idea that AT&T is doing it because of costs....again, based on what? The general idea of costs increasing? Do you understand how absurdly general and wide that is?

Revenue for AT&T in the 4th Q of last year was $30+ billion. Excuse me if I have trouble believing that AT&T is looking to help their costs with a $50 increase.
 
Revenue for AT&T in the 4th Q of last year was $30+ billion. Excuse me if I have trouble believing that AT&T is looking to help their costs with a $50 increase.
Looks like somebody doesn't know how to read an annual report.
AT&T (the whole company) generated $31.36 billion in revenue for ALL of 2010.
(2010 Q4 total revenue (wireless and wireline) was $9.6 billion, with $6.6 billion of that allocated to capital expenses.)

Of the $31.36 billion earned in 2010, $15.18 billion came from the wireless unit.
The rest was from wireline (U-Verse) services.

Out of that $31.36 billion, AT&T had $20.3 billion in capital expenses.
That leaves just a hair over $10 billion for upgrades and any new R&D.
Their LTE roll out is expected to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $19 billion dollars.

So yeah... they need the money to expand while remaining profitable.
The question is, who is willing to pay it?
My guess is most will and AT&T knows it.
 
"allocative deadweight loss"

What does that mean?

that term somehow makes me feel bad about myself.
:)

anyway, been upgrading every year with the offset of selling the old equipment to pay for part or most of the new.

added a nice crack to my iphone 4 front panel and was considering the $200 replacement through :apple: now, i may just do it, stick with the four until the true end of my two year, and upgrade then, to avoid the extra $50.

unless the latest revision has something in it necessary to the function of the device, is the upgrade tax going to be worth it to most people?
 
Looks like somebody doesn't know how to read an annual report.
AT&T (the whole company) generated $31.36 billion in revenue for ALL of 2010.
(2010 Q4 total revenue (wireless and wireline) was $9.6 billion, with $6.6 billion of that allocated to capital expenses.)

Of the $31.36 billion earned in 2010, $15.18 billion came from the wireless unit.
The rest was from wireline (U-Verse) services.

Out of that $31.36 billion, AT&T had $20.3 billion in capital expenses.
That leaves just a hair over $10 billion for upgrades and any new R&D.
Their LTE roll out is expected to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $19 billion dollars.

So yeah... they need the money to expand while remaining profitable.
The question is, who is willing to pay it?
My guess is most will and AT&T knows it.

Sigh, excuse me. I mis-stated the 4Q numbers.

With that said, all of your numbers still convinces me that thinking a $50 increase is in anyway a "needed" plan by AT&T is unpersuasive.
 
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