Attempted Apple Store Holdup Goes Bad: Suspect Killed

[482214]

More people die from car accidents. Nobody is calling for a ban on cars.

Better standards for American driving would help though - better education in relation to gun and car use would greatly help the situation...

The driving test in the USA is a Joke compared to what we do in the UK (well at least in DC where I took it)...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

You have either never seen evil, or you are siding with it.

What does this mean? I'm "siding with" evil because I think that shootouts are a bad thing?

 

[louis Fashion]

That's an oversimplification if I ever heard one.

A store is smashed up, a person is dead, two are in prison, a guard just narrowly avoided being killed. While the criminals may have ultimately been stopped this is hardly something to celebrate over. This isn't a movie, comic book or video game. Yet some of the people posting here are filled with glee over this.

and don't forget, extra points for a good head shot.

 

[482214]

Don't hate the bearer of bad news... Be the grown up one that looks to the solution and not the problem.

 

[RalfTheDog]

I'm less concerned with the "crook" than I am with people who dehumanize others to the extent that a fatal shooting is grounds for congratulatory back-slapping. What kind of people enjoy this?



Completely ridiculous, and also totally, totally wrong.



Anyone with even cursory knowledge will be aware of the fact that this incident will greatly exceed the cost of a single andgun cartridge. But whjy let facts get in the way of some good ol' crazed rhetoric?



Ignorance over reason, yes.

Not totally wrong, When you shoot and don't hit the target, you could hit someone else. You might shoot at the cabinet the bad guy is hiding behind while they shoot you. For the most part, you do not pull the trigger unless you are sure you will kill the person you are shooting at. Anything else is a threat to the others around you.

Note: Unless you plan to kill, never point your gun at another person. Never shoot to disarm, only kill. If the threat is such that you don't need to kill, you don't need to use a gun. If you shoot to knock the other person down, their next shot could take out the three year old girl hiding behind you.

 

[rdrr]

Better standards for American driving would help though - better education in relation to gun and car use would greatly help the situation...

The driving test in the USA is a Joke compared to what we do in the UK (well at least in DC where I took it)...

Of course it's harder in the UK, you sit on the wrong side of the car, and you drive on the wrong side of the road...

 

[unlinked]

This is SUCH an american debate here... interesting from a sociological point of view almost.
Anyhow there is NO proportionality given between robbing material goods and the elimination of life. No matter how one stands to questions like gun control, police regulations or even death sentence.

Proportionality is the key word here.

They shot at him and he shot at them. I do not have any issue with the fact he did it better.

 

[macquariumguy]

That's an oversimplification if I ever heard one.

A store is smashed up, a person is dead, two are in prison, a guard just narrowly avoided being killed. While the criminals may have ultimately been stopped this is hardly something to celebrate over. This isn't a movie, comic book or video game. Yet some of the people posting here are filled with glee over this.

I'm not filled with glee, but I wish this would happen more often.

Bottom line for me, if you commit a crime with a gun in your hand then your life is forfeit. Your momma might cry for you when you get killed, but I sure as hell won't.

 

[SFStateStudent]

Luckily, the Store Manager was uninjured (physically), as well as the Security Guard. I'm concerned that the Security Guard fired his weapon as the suspects were leaving the Apple Store with Apple products. Under all circumstances, the Security Guard is authorized the use of deadly force, only if his life is in danger or other innocent lives are in danger. Brandishing a weapon can also result in the use of deadly force, but the reports that the suspects were already out of the store, brings to question the use of deadly force. Depends on the first shot being taken, I guess...

*I stand corrected! Once the weapon is brandished by the suspect(s) and pointed at the Security Guard, deadly force applies...

 

[smithrh]

The last point, I don't see it as a big deal. The car is a deadly weapon, who is to say he would not have used it to ram the security guard. In short, the sub-human POS was going for another deadly weapon.

Killing him in the car was 100% justified.

Let's face it, you don't have the facts so you can't say (and neither can I at this time).

Make a big blustering statement, sure, hopefully it makes you feel good.

But this could be trouble. Shooting someone fleeing is not looked upon lightly by judges and juries (not just criminal, but civil ones too).

As more _facts_ arrive, judgements can be made. Rational, sensible judgements.

 

[lmac33]

long time reader has to subscribe to respond to this

OMG.. I'm with Felt. "Security Guards" shouldn't carry guns, and if they do there should be training and good sense that goes into using it. Shooting the suspects in the head is criminal.

WTFooey, if the guard didn't have a gun in this case, it sounds as though he might have been dead instead of the suspect. And it sounds as though some on this forum might have been happier with that outcome.

Now for important stuff: I'm not familiar with every state's law but can you provide a source showing that it is illegal to shoot someone in the head in a deadly force situation? Would it be better if he killed the suspect by shooting him in the chest? If someone is posing a deadly threat to you and you are justified in using deadly force, that force can include options such as running them over with your car. For example, you are in your car with no where to go but forward and the bad guy is in front of your car shooting at you. Gonna lay down and die or hit the gas?

Now I'm not some gun-toting nut (really not, otherwise I would be on a different forum but I believe in the right to defend yourself. And to be given a fair trial before people like us on the internet decide that they are guilty based on a news report. The actions the security guard took can either be homicide or completely justified and this distinction can be a matter of actions happening one second instead of the next second. And hopefully the court (if this has to go to trial) will be able to recreate EXACTLY what happen so the justice will be done. But, at this point, only the security guard knows for sure whether he was justified. And the justification is based on what the guard knew at the time of the shooting. If for example, someone points a gun at you and says I'm going to kill you. So you shoot in self defense, you are justified (generally, based on the limited facts presented) even in the gun is unloaded (unless you knew the gun was unloaded ).

Personally, I hope the guard was justified. If not, I hope he is charged appropriately. But, currently, there is not enough publicly available information to come to a true conclusion as to his guilt or lack thereof.

Just to recap (no pun intended) maxmiles, if someone starts shooting at you, perhaps you can maintain your good sense to remember to aim carefully and shoot the bad guy in the chest instead of the head. But otherwise, do your job to the best of your ability, only use the minimum amount of force necessary, AND stay alive.

 

[Full of Win]

That's an oversimplification if I ever heard one.

A store is smashed up, a person is dead, two are in prison, a guard just narrowly avoided being killed. While the criminals may have ultimately been stopped this is hardly something to celebrate over. This isn't a movie, comic book or video game. Yet some of the people posting here are filled with glee over this.

The only thing not to be happy about is that one of the subhumans is still converting O2 and carbohydrates into CO2 and ATP.

Face it, the good guys won!

 

[iStudentUK]

You have either never seen evil, or you are siding with it.

Or you're a right-wing troll trying to make lefties look bad.

So saying a man getting killed is unfortunate = siding with evil.

That is some poor logic.

Better the criminal ended up dead than the guard, unfortunate that it came to that.

 

[CQd44]

I will never understand the sympathy for criminals.

Personally, if anyone broke into my house I would shoot them dead with whatever I had. My family comes first, not the life of a criminal.

 

[tigress666]

Don't know about CA, but I know someone who was charged that way following the death of a fellow felon in an armed robbery attempt in NYC. The premise, in NYS at least, was that if someone died while you were committing a felony and you had a deadly weapon, you were responsible for their death.

Now that, is pretty damned awesome.

I'd fully support this.

Anyways, some of you people are sick (especially the person who wrote what he'd say in a "sympathy" card. Get some empathy, guy).

And no, I am not feeling sorry for the criminal. He took his chances, he lost. And it was his own fault for pushing the matter by choosing to put everyone's life on the line by starting to shoot (Which is why I'm totally for blaming him for any loss of life. It's just lucky it was only his own that was lost, least the person who caused the whole thing was the one affected).

But, I also agree with people there is a difference between thinking what the guard did was right, and actually cheering for loss of life. How about cheering for trying to address why this happens in the first place and addressing the causes so this kind of situation happens less? Like addressing social reasons why people end up resorting to this. WHich means less people resorting to being criminals and being productive members of society, less senseless dieing, and more people happy. I think that's a much better solution than just, "Kill anyone who does a crime." That's only addressing the symptoms, not the cause. Sure, the symptoms need to be addressed but the cause should be what the real focus is on.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Not totally wrong, When you shoot and don't hit the target, you could hit someone else. You might shoot at the cabinet the bad guy is hiding behind while they shoot you. For the most part, you do not pull the trigger unless you are sure you will kill the person you are shooting at. Anything else is a threat to the others around you.

If you want to get technical, police are always trained to fire multiple shots at center mass. At no point are they ever told to fire just one shot - with the important exception of police marksmen, but that doesn't apply here. That is why the use of firearms is termed "lethal force". Properly used, firearms will kill - not wound. Aiming for a limb or the head with a service handgun is extremely bad practice when a torso shot is possible.

"One Shot One Kill" is a tagline for movies and video games. It has no place in a serious discussion of this incident.

The only thing not to be happy about is that one of the subhumans is still converting O2 and carbohydrates into CO2 and ATP.

Face it, the good guys won!

The criminals are not subhuman, even if they are ultimately largely responsible for their own deaths. If you dehumanize them, you are dehumanizing yourself.

 

[Full of Win]

Luckily, the Store Manager was uninjured (physically), as well as the Security Guard. I'm concerned that the Security Guard fired his weapon as the suspects were leaving the Apple Store with Apple products.

Car = deadly weapon. Just because they were in the car does not mean they were trying to get away.

 

[AwakenedLands]

If you are a security officer, you wear clothes that clearly identify you as an officer. Unbelievably, there are people on this planet who want to cause harm to anyone wearing a uniform, and will proceed to do so if they can get away with it. Allowing a security officer to carry a weapon should be mandatory, especially in Chula Vista.

With that said, the gunmen shot at the officer.

I'm pretty sure very few here have had a gun pointed at them, or even fired a gun themselves. In a gunfight, it's kill or be killed, regardless of what intellectuals tell you. You don't have time to think, you act.

Those who feel this is excessive force have obviously never been in this type of danger.

 

[notabadname]

Don't worry, your intelligence level doesn't go down actually. Technically, it goes up, as you LEARN how many ignorant people surround you.

 

[MCroft]

Good idea, it makes you less an idiot if things didn't actually happen the way you might have assumed they did.

Thanks! I appreciate the provisional "less of an idiot" label, provisionally.

* Suspect may have been shot while driving away

That last point may be an issue; then again, if he was pulling the trigger while driving away, then it won't be.

Lots more to come out, I'm sure.

From Trepanator's post (#392) emphasis mine:

The two male suspects "went down" but it is unknown whether they were injured at that point, the police chief said. The suspects fled to a parking lot and fired shots as they got into a car. "They had another handgun in the car and there was another exchange of gunfire," Bejarano disclosed.

The driver was shot in the side of his head. Bejarano believes its
likely the injury occurred once the suspects were in the vehicle. "He attempted to drive away, maybe 20-25 yards. The driver hit a light post and some planters, then came to a stop. He died pretty quickly and was found in the car expired."

If there was another exchange of gunfire, that may address your point. Or not. He might have initiated the second exchange. See above.

 

[RalfTheDog]

If Apple did not make such cool stuff, people would not rip it off. Apple should start selling Windows and Android junk. Stop the death now!

 

[rtkane]

Better standards for American driving would help though - better education in relation to gun and car use would greatly help the situation...

The driving test in the USA is a Joke compared to what we do in the UK (well at least in DC where I took it)...

Seriously? You're comparing UK car driving skills with US car driving skills? How hard is it for you guys to drive a car when you don't need to have a gun in your hand to wave around at people who piss you off??? We are FAR more talented drivers than you non-gun-waving pansies.

(that's a just a joke, by the way!)

 

[Steveorevo]

Yeah, you can try to rationalize the poor mental health in the US, resulting in the poor upbringing and subsequent poor education, and finally poor decisions these individual took part in. But at some point your going to have to clean up the trash.

As a liberal, I'm all for education and mental health services that addresses 99% of the homeless and drug addicts this country has but this scenario is so far advanced and removed.

Wake up: I live here in San Diego and this is how it typically plays out and how they typically end up in my ER.

Meth heads band together, steal car from unsuspecting old lady, and attempt armed robbery. Staring down the barrel of a gun from a tweaking, desperate meth head with of twitching trigger finger, and you want to rationalize their humanity?

You are talking about a real life zombie shell of a human being. Love the human, but hate the disease. The mall cop stopped a cycle of violence that could have been way worse. Good on him!

 

[482214]

Don't worry, your intelligence level doesn't go down actually. Technically, it goes up, as you LEARN how many ignorant people surround us.

agreed... it seems more than normal today!

 

[wizard]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

As others have said, it looks like it was more than a simple smash and grab...the suspects appear to have been armed. I'm sure as the day goes by we'll get more of an idea of what happened.

From the article:

Two men and woman apparently did a "smash and grab," in which glass doors and windows are broken and merchandise is grabbed quickly, CVPD Capt. Gary Facicci said.

A private armed security guard interrupted the burglars and at some point, gunfire was exchanged with the two male burglars, who were also armed, Facicci said.

The male suspects and their alleged female accomplice then got into a vehicle that crashed while still inside the shopping mall, Facicci said, noting that one of the men was driving and he died in the crash. Reports from the scene indicate he had been shot in the head.

The getaway vehicle crashed into a wall at the mall.

The second male suspect and female were arrested at the scene, Facicci said. Both were described as being in their mid-20s.

It really doesn't matter in my mind if they where armed or not the important thing is one is dead and hopefully the other is dying. There is no justification for crime and people that take that route should enjoy a very short life.