AV Artists Complain Monterey 'Orange Dot' Security Feature Makes Macs Unsuitable for Live Performances

[Ethosik]

If it's there for a deliberate reason, go for it. I might think it's crap design but if that's what your clients demand, I'm not the one calling the shots -- or writing the checks. Who knows, it might even help tell the story, in which case I might still think it's overwrought design but at least I could conjure a justification for its presence. There are times when a flashing red "recording" dot makes sense in live projections. I think it's usually a cheap shortcut but it being there conveys some sort of information.

I don't want to get into the technicalities here, but there is a deliberate reason for showing that orange circle. Some might get distracted by it, some might not care. But again, dealing with extremes here. I honestly don't think its bad design to have watermarks, but a lot of the industry does this in their marketing material and things so its not like I am doing an "abnormal" process here.

I have already said it is a minor VERY VERY minor issue. Its not like the circle is 20 feet radius or something crazy like that. I don't think its something to start attacking people about or going back and forth on 11 pages. But if your business struggles that much with that circle, then it was a mistake to update.

One of my clients also does photography work and their 3 million dollar printer only works with Windows 98. If they upgrade to Windows XP, it fails to work. We TESTED it when I was helping with their IT 15 years ago. So instead of upgrading to Windows XP and complaining to Microsoft, we kept it on Windows 98 and kept going. They finally got a newer model that supports Windows 10 so that is good finally!

 

[montuori]

Nobody would accept a 15 sec. fade-to-black at the end of a scene... theatre is in total darkness for dramatic tension... except for an orange dot on the screen.

Ever had a director ask if you can kill the emergency exit lights in a blackout?

 

[Ethosik]

There are probably scenarios in which the dot is a minor distraction, but it would be absolutely unnacapatable in the theatre, opera, classical music worlds. Where video projections are evermore important, and Mac often used,

Nobody would accept a 15 sec. fade-to-black at the end of a scene... theatre is in total darkness for dramatic tension... except for an orange dot on the screen.
Some scenes will have no video projection, just black... but there is an orange dot for the duration of the scene.

Sometimes we use multilpe projectors for pixel precise video-mapping onto elements of the scenography, now each one would come with its own orange dot.
How would you explain this to an opera director, theatre management, museum curator?

Rebuilding the theatre's scenography to bring everything towards title/action safe is obviously not an option.
Scaling, stretching, cropping imagery we have spent months creating... is not a option.

As I wrote earlier: we do not update OSs for at least 6 months, so this is not a problem I have right now.
I am merely replying to your words because I find it concerning that you believe you can decide what is acceptable and/or distracting for others in the world of video projection.
Would you find it a "mole hill" if photosphop placed an orange dot on every image ist saved? How would you explain this to a magazine editor? or to a photograper whose image you are working on in photoshop? Just tell him he should "frame his photography so that it's title/action safe" ?
If Logic outputs a bleep throughout a recording of a symphony: what would you say to the director of the Philharmonic? "It's a mole hill, the trumpets are more distracting"
Anybody who takes pride in their work will not want to have an orange dot added in the final output.
That being said, I expect there will be a solution soon. Orange dot on computer screen is fine for me, but not on external output.

My gosh people this doesn't need to spin to 200 pages of discussions here. NOT EVERY PLACE IS THE SAME! Sometimes people might want that fade to black and are fine with that circle being there. We can't keep talking the extremes here. If it truly is THAT HORRIBLE, then Apple should recall Monterey until this circle is gone, as you CANNOT use this for ANY video work until this is done. Or maybe, some people can tolerate it being there?

I had a fade to black scene in one project and the client's watermark stayed there.

 

[R10k]

People moving around stage is distracting. When Tim Cook or Steve Jobs move around on stage its distracting. Lights around the stage are distracting. Curtains around the stage is distracting. The person in front of me is distracting. Again, I feel people are WAY overstating the issue here. Its like this orange dot is going to suddenly make AV artists all lose their jobs because its distracting.

Look, I get you work in the industry and don't see this as a big issue for yourself personally. But, it's hard to take you seriously when you try and defend your points with comments like this (which is stupid, to be honest) and draw insulting examples of safe zones for professionals, as if no one gets what you're saying.

I agree with Tompkinson above.

 

[Ethosik]

Look, I get you work in the industry and don't see this as a big issue for yourself personally. But, it's hard to take you seriously when you try and defend your points with comments like this (which is stupid, to be honest) and draw insulting examples of safe zones for professionals, as if no one gets what you're saying.

I agree with Tompkinson above.

Again, what gives you the right to tell ME what is distracting to ME? I don't find that circle distracting in that picture. I do however find Steve moving around distracting if I need to focus on the presentation. Movement gears your eyes towards it.

Seriously, how is it stupid argument? Movement by definition is distracting. Especially to a wide range of people. I find spiders moving in my studio distracting while I work because there is movement.

At the very least, can we PLEASE just stop with the insults. Saying things like I am stupid or my distractions are stupid. People can get distracted for any number of reasons. Same reason I can't really go to movie theaters anymore because I get distracted when someone's phone (while on silent) lights up.

I typically watch an Apple event at least two or three times because I sometimes miss slides when there is movement going on.

 

[fompsweeva]

Third party - not my laptop so not my responsibility. But it shows things were not planned properly if that third party was not able to work in our environment. For these things you need to plan accordingly. For the other argument, that is upgrading from a NEED. Not upgrading, and finding out you can't work because of a dot.

And yes you are talking extremes. " If you think this is acceptable you've obviously never worked in this type of professional environment." Like I said, not every single business or client base or customer base is exact. And I still don't feel the need to keep saying I am not good at my job or I am not worthy of such a job.

Another example from a client that does us a projector and uses a wall for it. There is a giant cut in the middle of the wall which can be considered "distracting" but they are fine with it. Not every single place would care THAT MUCH about this orange circle. Some might, but this is why I say we need to stop talking extremes. And its not helping when you say "if its not MY way of doing business, you obviously are not in this professional environment"

It sounds like you consider any environment that requires attention to detail in presentation 'extreme'. We're talking about professional presentation. Large scale corporate events. Theatrical productions. Art installs.

I don't want to get into the technicalities here, but there is a deliberate reason for showing that orange circle.

The reasoning for the dot makes sense if the computer is only ever used as a single user device. Otherwise, it's simply bad design that is not inclusive of all professional use cases.

 

[Tompkinson]

Ever had a director ask if you can kill the emergency exit lights in a blackout?

Yes of course, 100s of times ;-)
I worked on a ballet piece in Moscow a few years ago, the elecricians were bribed to cut the emergency lights for 30 seconds at 2 moments of the production. They did it every night of our production, and seemed like they were used to doing this regularly.

 

[R10k]

Again, what gives you the right to tell ME what is distracting to ME? I don't find that circle distracting in that picture. I do however find Steve moving around distracting if I need to focus on the presentation. Movement gears your eyes towards it.

Seriously, how is it stupid argument? Movement by definition is distracting. Especially to a wide range of people. I find spiders moving in my studio distracting while I work because there is movement.

At the very least, can we PLEASE just stop with the insults. Saying things like I am stupid or my distractions are stupid. People can get distracted for any number of reasons.

I wasn't talking about you. You're not stupid - your argument is. You made the point that the dot is an okay distraction because lots of things are distractions. That's a completely pointless thing to say. Let's all set fire to our projectors. No problem there! Lots of things are distractions!

 

[Ethosik]

Large scale corporate events

This is primarily the area I work in. And they are fine with cuts in the wall with projectors, or watermarks (which end up being quite large when a projector is used to show a 1080p video).

 

[Ethosik]

I wasn't talking about you. You're not stupid - your argument is. You made the point that the dot is an okay distraction because lots of things are distractions. That's a completely pointless thing to say. Let's all set fire to our projectors. No problem there! Lots of things are distractions!

No you said it was stupid to say Steve moving, or a blue curtain in the middle of a black scene is distracting. A static orange circle is in no way distracting. But movement? Sure is. I am saying I am more distracted by Steve moving around than a static image. And my comparison is that lightly lit up blue curtain in that image with Steve is just as distracting as the circle. Because it is around black, so it stands out.

 

[R10k]

No you said it was stupid to say Steve moving, or a blue curtain in the middle of a black scene is distracting. A static orange circle is in no way distracting. But movement? Sure is.

Quote me: "...comments like this (which is stupid..." referring to the comment.

All the best to you. I'm out.

 

[Ethosik]

Quote me: "...comments like this (which is stupid..." referring to the comment.

All the best to you. I'm out.

So the comment itself is stupid, but not the words? WHAT is stupid? I can't be distracted by movement? I can't find a curtain just as distracting as the orange circle? Why is it stupid? Is there something wrong with me where I don't find that circle distracting which leads to that comment being stupid?

 

[montuori]

I don't want to get into the technicalities here, but there is a deliberate reason for showing that orange circle. Some might get distracted by it, some might not care. But again, dealing with extremes here. I honestly don't think its bad design to have watermarks, but a lot of the industry does this in their marketing material and things so its not like I am doing an "abnormal" process here.

Hey, you have your clients, I have mine. They're all demanding in their own ways. I'm not trying to insult you or what you do (I don't know what you do) and would kind of appreciate it if you either had some empathy for where we as live performance artists stand on this pretty irksome issue or at least stopped telling us that it's not a big deal. It's a big deal and blaming the artists is, well, useless. They show up, they plug in, and they're miffed when it doesn't all work. It seems like a few of us here are on the pointy end when all that goes down. That *I* didn't upgrade isn't going to matter when I'm stuck fixing someone else's rig and shouting "you used the computer wrong" is not going to gain me many friends. It's all part of the fun, I'm grateful to know what the issue is ahead of time.

I'm not going to continue to belabor the point. I appreciated hearing from folks who're in my situation which is best summed up as "dismayed." I think Apple flubbed this one and hope it's resolved soon.

 

[fompsweeva]

Steve moving around distracting if I need to focus on the presentation.

Steve is part of the intended focus of the event. He isn't a distraction at all.

This is primarily the area I work in. And they are fine with cuts in the wall with projectors, or watermarks (which end up being quite large when a projector is used to show a 1080p video).

Watermarks, sure. The client has asked for that to be there. Cuts in the wall? Sounds like they don't have high stakes or are simply doing informal presentations. I'm talking polished productions, much like the Apple Keynotes. Those are the types of events I've worked on, and this orange dotgate would not fly. Your one client anecdote is not representative at all.

 

[Ethosik]

Hey, you have your clients, I have mine. They're all demanding in their own ways. I'm not trying to insult you or what you do (I don't know what you do) and would kind of appreciate it if you either had some empathy for where we as live performance artists stand on this pretty irksome issue or at least stopped telling us that it's not a big deal. It's a big deal and blaming the artists is, well, useless. They show up, they plug in, and they're miffed when it doesn't all work. It seems like a few of us here are on the pointy end when all that goes down. That *I* didn't upgrade isn't going to matter when I'm stuck fixing someone else's rig and shouting "you used the computer wrong" is not going to gain me many friends. It's all part of the fun, I'm grateful to know what the issue is ahead of time.

I'm not going to continue to belabor the point. I appreciated hearing from folks who're in my situation which is best summed up as "dismayed." I think Apple flubbed this one and hope it's resolved soon.

People will ALWAYS find things irksome. Still, the grand scheme of things this is a molehill and not a mountain. Some people find Rosetta 2 irksome. Some people file the transition to Arm itself irksome as some stuff doesn't even work with Rosetta. I am not saying you can't be irksome, but and this goes both ways here. Have some empathy for those that DON'T have this issue. This is part of the extremes I am referring to. It seems (not just on this topic) that its either "my way or no way" mentality going on. All my posts have been are just other avenues and areas and people that just don't care that much about this circle. You are on the other side of this it seems. But still what you said to me goes both ways too.

 

[Ethosik]

Steve is part of the intended focus of the event. He isn't a distraction at all.



Watermarks, sure. The client has asked for that to be there. Cuts in the wall? Sounds like they don't have high stakes or are simply doing informal presentations. I'm talking polished productions, much like the Apple Keynotes. Those are the types of events I've worked on, and this orange dotgate would not fly. Your one client anecdote is not representative at all.

And your arguments is also not representative for ALL as well. That is my point, we need to get out of the EXTREMES discussion here. And yes it was a pretty professional presentation with hundreds of people participating.

 

[montuori]

I worked on a ballet piece in Moscow a few years ago, the elecricians were bribed to cut the emergency lights for 30 seconds at 2 moments of the production. They did it every night of our production, and seemed like they were used to doing this regularly.

"Emergency lights STAND BY. ... Emergency lights GO." From now on my answer is "sure, but it'll cost ya." Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[Tompkinson]

I don't find that circle distracting in that picture.

That is fine, I am merely responding to your words as you seem to think that what is a "mole hill" for you should be a "mole hill" for everybody else. That is an extreme viewpoint. You're not taking into consideration that we all have different requirements of our tech, and differing work situations.
Even if an orange dot didn't bother me personally, it would certainly bother the people and institutions who commission us to create moving imagery for their productions.
I have been in this line of work all over the world 30 years, and i can guarantee that if I arrive on first day of rehearsals for a theatre production and tell the director that the orange dot will be visible on screen for the duration of the piece... because my computer is designed like this... I'd be fired on the spot.
Telling the director that "Ethosik says it's a mole hill" will not get me re-hired.
Quite apart from that I take pride in my art work being as perfect-as-possilble, and do not want an orange dot on black and white moving imagery.
If watermarks are not a problem, or even desired by you and your clients, that's fine. But please consider that not everybody has your aesthetic or work situation. Thinking this would be extremely narrow.

 

[Ethosik]

That is fine, I am merely responding to your words as you seem to think that what is a "mole hill" for you should be a "mole hill" for everybody else. That is an extreme viewpoint. You're not taking into consideration that we all have different requirements of our tech, and differing work situations.
Even if an orange dot didn't bother me personally, it would certainly bother the people and institutions who commission us to create moving imagery for their productions.
I have been in this line of work all over the world 30 years, and i can guarantee that if I arrive on first day of rehearsals for a theatre production and tell the director that the orange dot will be visible on screen for the duration of the piece... because my computer is designed like this... I'd be fired on the spot.
Telling the director that "Ethosik says it's a mole hill" will not get me re-hired.
Quite apart from that I take pride in my art work being as perfect-as-possilble, and do not want an orange dot on black and white moving imagery.
If watermarks are not a problem, or even desired by you and your clients, that's fine. But please consider that not everybody has your aesthetic or work situation. Thinking this would be extremely narrow.

I have said it was an issue and can see where problems might arise. But also in the grand scheme of things its not a mountain of an issue and I have provided my own work experiences to back that up. Yet I am treated as not a professional and that my comments are stupid. Great way to have a nice conversation going on. And the people that DO find that the circle distracting aren't being empathetic to those in the industry that DOESN'T find it distracting. I was offering a counter point, and just my two cents that spiraled into multiple pages of discussions and frankly insults targeted towards me with the unprofessional and stupid remarks.

And per your last point, "everybody being distracted by the circle" is not the attitude to have either because every workplace is different. Not everyone has the aesthetic or work situation where that orange circle is a big issue.

 

[fompsweeva]

I am getting really tired of people telling me I am not professional, can we stop with these attacks PLEASE??? It really irks me that "oh you or your clients are not distracted by something like this? NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!!!!"

So what's so difficult to understand as a professional?

The topic here is that audio visual professionals can't get a clean feed for video distribution from a mac that's using an audio input. To this type of user, the orange dot is not a desirable feature. Nor does the feature have any relevance in a distributed system.

 

[Tompkinson]

"Emergency lights STAND BY. ... Emergency lights GO." From now on my answer is "sure, but it'll cost ya." Thanks for the chuckle.

You'll find regional variations in the "it'll cost ya" dept. I would not be surprised if bottles of vodka was the currency at the Moscow production. You'll just have to negotiate a way to add on 15% for yourself ;-)

 

[Ethosik]

So what's so difficult to understand as a professional?

The topic here is that audio visual professionals can't get a clean feed for video distribution from a mac that's using an audio input. To this type of user, the orange dot is not a desirable feature. Nor does the feature have any relevance in a distributed system.

I have said in my own experiences such a circle would not be an issue, and was called unprofessional for it or my comments are stupid.

If you DO have such a major issue with the circle, I would handle it this way.

1. Downgrade to Big Sur and send a feedback item to Apple why you can't use Monterey.
2. Return your new laptop if its locked to Monterey as your business can't function with it as-is and buy a refurbished one that supports Big Sur or lower (or an older M1/Intel Mac with Big Sur support) and send a feedback item to Apple why you can't use Monterey.
3. Learn from this and don't update a mission-critical system to a latest OS in the future.

As a professional, I never update my mission-critical systems. Even with my new M1 Max Macbook Pro, its in the "burning" period I like to call it where I still have my old system around in case there are issues as yes new Operating Systems have been issues since forever.

 

[fompsweeva]

I have said in my own experiences such a circle would not be an issue, and was called unprofessional for it or my comments are stupid.

If you DO have such a major issue with the circle, I would handle it this way.

1. Downgrade to Big Sur and send a feedback item to Apple why you can't use Monterey.
2. Return your new laptop if its locked to Monterey as your business can't function with it as-is and buy a refurbished one that supports Big Sur or lower (or an older M1/Intel Mac with Big Sur support) and send a feedback item to Apple why you can't use Monterey.
3. Learn from this and don't update a mission-critical system to a latest OS in the future.

I agree with the above, but you've also tried to make arguments that the dot isn't a big deal or a distraction in a professional context, and I think that's what people are calling out. Those arguments simply don't reflect the reality and needs of live production.

 

[Ethosik]

I agree with the above, but you've also tried to make arguments that the dot isn't a big deal or a distraction in a professional context, and I think that's what people are calling out. Those arguments simply don't reflect the reality and needs of live production.

And if there ever is such a "professional context" that it really isn't a big deal, then its not professional I guess is what I am getting from this whole thread? It MUST absolutely be a big deal in 100% of businesses? My own work experience says its not a big deal, but I guess that means I am unprofessional?

 

[1129846]

I am getting really tired of people telling me I am not professional, can we stop with these attacks PLEASE??? It really irks me that "oh you or your clients are not distracted by something like this? NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!!!!"

The fact that you are attacking everyone telling you at a professional level that the orange dot is bad and refuse to see it as an issue speaks volumes. Either you are young in your career or don't do it for a living.

This is a detail that separate professional grade from not. Not understanding that is a massive issue.