Big Navi refresh in 2020 27" iMac?

[Koudspeel]

With NVIDIA releasing their 3000 line of cards just a few days ago and AMD supposedly releasing their Big Navi RDNA2 chips later this year, I was wondering if Apple will refresh the GPU option on the iMac 2020 one last time.

Apple has done such a move before in the past with the iMac Pro. On release the iMac Pro was only available with the Pro Vega 56 and 64. In March 2019 they added the Vega Pro 64X option.

Since we do not know yet what the thermal consequences of Big Navi are, it might be possible for Apple to put in the new chips in the iMac 2020.

What do you guys think? Would it be a smart move from Apple to update the GPU one last time or are they solely focussing on the Apple Silicon iMac by now?

 

[PieTunes]

With NVIDIA releasing their 3000 line of cards just a few days ago and AMD supposedly releasing their Big Navi RDNA2 chips later this year, I was wondering if Apple will refresh the GPU option on the iMac 2020 one last time.

Apple has done such a move before in the past with the iMac Pro. On release the iMac Pro was only available with the Pro Vega 56 and 64. In March 2019 they added the Vega Pro 64X option.

Since we do not know yet what the thermal consequences of Big Navi are, it might be possible for Apple to put in the new chips in the iMac 2020.

What do you guys think? Would it be a smart move from Apple to update the GPU one last time or are they solely focussing on the Apple Silicon iMac by now?

I would say it's highly doubtful. It's an educated guess, but the 27" iMacs would be the machines Apple updates and releases with their custom silicon towards the end of their stated 2 year transition. It's possible but I don't think they would do any refreshes of the current Intel based iMacs during the between time especially with any components that could minimize the real/perceived performance increases and capabilities of their own chips. They're going all in with their silicon as well as their graphics and I don't think they would spend anymore time and resources (money) to set the competing bar any higher than it already is.

 

[pldelisle]

Most effective should now be working on Apple Silicon products. Very unlikely they are working at other Intel products except *maybe* a 16 inch 2020 MBP.

 

[dspdoc]

Hopefully Apple will fix all the issues with the 5700 XT before they do anything more with iMac GPUs!

 

[torifile]

I echo @PieTunes - likely not.

 

[Koudspeel]

I would say it's highly doubtful. It's an educated guess, but the 27" iMacs would be the machines Apple updates and releases with their custom silicon towards the end of their stated 2 year transition. It's possible but I don't think they would do any refreshes of the current Intel based iMacs during the between time especially with any components that could minimize the real/perceived performance increases and capabilities of their own chips. They're going all in with their silicon as well as their graphics and I don't think they would spend anymore time and resources (money) to set the competing bar any higher than it already is.

You're most likely right, yes.

It's just that I'm on the fence of getting a new iMac and was wondering if the 6000 series AMD GPU's would make it in the iMac as the last refresh.

Guess I'll be waiting for the new Apple Silicon iMac to show up.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Not a chance. Apple just launched the last of the Intel iMacs.

 

[CheesePuff]

Not a chance. Apple just launched the last of the Intel iMacs.

Apple has done this multiple times in the past where they release new GPU options such as with the MacBook Pro 15 inch and 16 inch

 

[PieTunes]

Apple has done this multiple times in the past where they release new GPU options such as with the MacBook Pro 15 inch and 16 inch

Yes, but they’ve never been on the cusp of the major hardware transition. It could very well happen, sure, having options is great, but I just think the likelihood is low.

 

[Ethosik]

So people think Apple will go 1.5 years without any more updates at all to the iMac line? Or Mac Pro line? That will be very bad for Apple IMO.

 

[PieTunes]

So people think Apple will go 1.5 years without any more updates at all to the iMac line? Or Mac Pro line? That will be very bad for Apple IMO.

It wouldn’t be unheard of. Look at their update/release schedule of the iMac in recent years. October 2015, then June 2017, then March 2019, and now August 2020. Well over a year between any updates.

 

[Ethosik]

It wouldn’t be unheard of. Look at their update/release schedule of the iMac in recent years. October 2015, then June 2017, then March 2019, and now August 2020. Well over a year between any updates.

But that is really because of Intel's timeline. If Intel 11th gen releases early next year, and RDNA2 is a massive improvement, I can see this being very bad for Apple. Especially if they do not lower the price of old tech.

 

[ADGrant]

So people think Apple will go 1.5 years without any more updates at all to the iMac line? Or Mac Pro line? That will be very bad for Apple IMO.

The trash can Mac Pro was released in 2013. Wasn't replaced until last year.

 

[Ethosik]

The trash can Mac Pro was released in 2013. Wasn't replaced until last year.

Yep and did you see Apple apologized about the entire situation? That was the reason most professionals left Apple. It was an absolutely horrible system even at launch.

 

[PieTunes]

Yep and did you see Apple apologized about the entire situation? That was the reason most professionals left Apple. It was an absolutely horrible system even at launch.

Apple had everything to apologize for regarding the state of the Mac Pro, sure. Six years without any releases while staying near mum during most of the time. But that won't be happening with the iMac. The odds of any component updates are likely slim to none seeing as they are going to their own way with CPU and graphics. The iMac is by and large a consumer oriented off the shelf product where the most of the buyers aren't concerned with or knowledgable of hardware specs except maybe storage capacity. Apple updating one component like graphics mid-cycle on such a system does not sound like something they would do especially when the next stage in the cycle includes a graphics overhaul anyway.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple had everything to apologize for regarding the state of the Mac Pro, sure. Six years without any releases while staying near mum during most of the time. But that won't be happening with the iMac. The odds of any component updates are likely slim to none seeing as they are going to their own way with CPU and graphics. The iMac is by and large a consumer oriented off the shelf product where the most of the buyers aren't concerned with or knowledgable of hardware specs except maybe storage capacity. Apple updating one component like graphics mid-cycle on such a system does not sound like something they would do especially when the next stage in the cycle includes a graphics overhaul anyway.

I don't know how a 10-core, 8TB SSD and 5700XT graphics cards is more geared towards consumers? I know many pros, myself included, that use the standard iMac. I use the 9900k version.

So yes, when Intel releases 11th gen, or maybe if even 12th gen releases before the 10900k versions of iMacs are replaced, it can look very bad for Apple. Even the benchmarks will be questioned: "Obviously it is faster, you didn't update the Macs with 11/12 gen in order to make performance look better" type of arguments would appear.

1.5 years is a very long time to have the top of the line systems just paused with their current hardware.

 

[PieTunes]

I don't know how a 10-core, 8TB SSD and 5700XT graphics cards is more geared towards consumers? I know many pros, myself included, that use the standard iMac. I use the 9900k version.

So yes, when Intel releases 11th gen, or maybe if even 12th gen releases before the 10900k versions of iMacs are replaced, it can look very bad for Apple. Even the benchmarks will be questioned: "Obviously it is faster, you didn't update the Macs with 11/12 gen in order to make performance look better" type of arguments would appear.

1.5 years is a very long time to have the top of the line systems just paused with their current hardware.

I'll say it again, the iMac is viewed as being a consumer oriented product where the vast majority of buyers purchase a ready to go SKU in store or online, and when they go on sale, even better. I've never discounted the higher end capabilities of the iMac, just the fact that those higher end and thus higher cost specs are needed/wanted by a much smaller niche market. If an 8TB SSD and 5700XT graphics system were that immensely popular sales-wise, of course Apple would have them ready to go in store.

Would Apple offer an option to update to a higher end graphics card just before before releasing a brand new system with brand new architecture? It's possible, sure. But I just don't see it happening with the iMac. What would Apple gain monetarily by doing that? The only viable reason they would do such a thing would be to appease the pro and tech enthusiast markets which again are smaller relative to the majority of iMac sales.

If this were any other time I might be more inclined to feel it could happen, but with their coming architecture change where they want everything to be Apple silicon, it just seems less and less likely. And just thinking aloud here, has Apple ever even offered an updated graphics card on the iMac line between system releases before? I'm genuinely curious to know.

 

[Ethosik]

I'll say it again, the iMac is viewed as being a consumer oriented product where the vast majority of buyers purchase a ready to go SKU in store or online, and when they go on sale, even better. I've never discounted the higher end capabilities of the iMac, just the fact that those higher end and thus higher cost specs are needed/wanted by a much smaller niche market. If an 8TB SSD and 5700XT graphics system were that immensely popular sales-wise, of course Apple would have them ready to go in store.

Would Apple offer an option to update to a higher end graphics card just before before releasing a brand new system with brand new architecture? It's possible, sure. But I just don't see it happening with the iMac. What would Apple gain monetarily by doing that? The only viable reason they would do such a thing would be to appease the pro and tech enthusiast markets which again are smaller relative to the majority of iMac sales.

If this were any other time I might be more inclined to feel it could happen, but with their coming architecture change where they want everything to be Apple silicon, it just seems less and less likely. And just thinking aloud here, has Apple ever even offered an updated graphics card on the iMac line between system releases before? I'm genuinely curious to know.

I just don't see how these iMacs are more popular in the consumer markets. I do not see my grandma getting a 10-core 8TB SSD and the 5700XT iMac for just Facebook.

 

[PieTunes]

I just don't see how these iMacs are more popular in the consumer markets. I do not see my grandma getting a 10-core 8TB SSD and the 5700XT iMac for just Facebook.

Are you telling me you seriously believe that the iMac as a whole was originally conceived for and marketed towards the "pro" level of user? The same iMac that has a price point starting at $1,099? The same iMac that offered integrated GPUs? The same iMac that until this recent release has offered 5400 spindle hard drives for storage? Perfect for grandmas who just need a pretty machine for Facebook.

It's a consumer grade all in one system that *just happens* to offer "pro" components for those who elect to pay and upgrade. Options are great and they help to appeal to a wider breadth of purchaser.

 

[Ethosik]

Are you telling me you seriously believe that the iMac as a whole was originally conceived for and marketed towards the "pro" level of user? The same iMac that has a price point starting at $1,099? The same iMac that offered integrated GPUs? The same iMac that until this recent release has offered 5400 spindle hard drives for storage? Perfect for grandmas who just need a pretty machine for Facebook.

It's a consumer grade all in one system that *just happens* to offer "pro" components for those who elect to pay and upgrade. Options are great and they help to appeal to a wider breadth of purchaser.

Actually yes, I do not know many "consumers" these days that even have semi-powerful computers. They typically have $500 machines or more commonly these days tablets/chromebooks.

And you don't think it will be bad for Apple if they leave those top end configurations static for 1.5 years? Even if Intel releases 11th gen and possibly 12th gen by then?

Everyone I know that does not do some level of productivity besides basic word documents only likes to spend $500. Even if I try to tell them more priced systems will last longer, they still want to only spend a very small amount of money on systems. I had to help my grandma get a $250 system that was decent.

 

[deconstruct60]

With NVIDIA releasing their 3000 line of cards just a few days ago and AMD supposedly releasing their Big Navi RDNA2 chips later this year, I was wondering if Apple will refresh the GPU option on the iMac 2020 one last time.
.

Since we do not know yet what the thermal consequences of Big Navi are, it might be possible for Apple to put in the new chips in the iMac 2020.

Do not know? Or just willfully ignore GPU product trends for the last 15 or so years?

The reason why is it nicknamed "big" Navi is that is has a boatload of additional CU ( cores ) added to it. It is a bigger die of stuff. It isn't going to run any cooler than the 5700 variants will at the same clock speeds. It would be technically possible to clock it even lower to get back to the 5700 variant levels, but "going wide" on compute is only going to buy so much. At some point you hit diminishing returns. "big navi" are the chips for the higher end of the GPU product line which have always historically ran hotter than the mid range.
[ yes there are perf/power improvments, but AMD is entirely likely going to 'spend' that trying to keep up with Nvidia . Not push their new high end GPU below last years mid range in thermals. THis is 7nm to a tweaked 7nm shift in implementation. There is no huge magic coming from the fab process adjustment here. ]

The iMac 2020 made about zero major improvements in the thermal system. Same old single fan and same size exhaust vent holes. There is some more efficient transfer from CPU and GPU components to the heat pipe system and a smaller amount of capacitors contributing to the iMac thermal limitations, but there was no "big win" for a much bigger GPU.

What do you guys think? Would it be a smart move from Apple to update the GPU one last time or are they solely focussing on the Apple Silicon iMac by now?

Later in 2021 there should be some mid-range (i.e., runs relatively cooler ) "Navi 2" solutions roll out. But those aren't coming in 2020. The question in 2021 would be just how far out was the "big iMac" Apple Silicon SoC at. If they aren't coming until early 2022 then maybe. If they are coming Q3-Q4 2021 then there really isn't much of a window for the Intel product.

The question more so would be whether they were going to be attached to the AS revision.