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Biggest ATV4 disappointment. No 1080p24
- Thread starter dannys1
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Generally speaking, if a TV or other display device showed you 24 frames per second, it would look really choppy. Movie theaters can get away with it because the images are so dim (usually a fraction of what your TV produces). If you were to display 24fps as 24fps on something as small and bright as your TV, it would flicker a lot. Even theaters don't really show 24fps. They use a rotating shutter to throw a black frame in between each film frame. Sometimes these rotate at 48 or 72Hz, so you're seeing each frame two or three times, with black frames in between. This is fast enough that you can't see it (obviously).
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/what-is-1080p24/
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You are confusing two separate issues. There is a difference between the screen refresh rate (which can cause flicker if too low) and the frame rate. Video with a low frame rate displayed at a high refresh rate (which is what the shutters in theatrical film projectors achieve) doesn't flicker. Whether or not it appears "choppy" depends on a number of factors, like the amount of motion blur which is determined by the photography/recording of the source material. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the vast majority of movies and most TV drama shows are recorded at 24fps and they do not appear choppy unless the display chain screws up the frame cadence. Avoiding the latter is precisely why native 24p output would be desirable.
Yeah, but did you read the rest of the article you posted?
It fairly nicely highlights that there are indeed advantages if you have a TV that can do multiples of 24 like 120/240. That puts us right back to the issue of the ATV not supporting 24 output, which blows.
The problem is the ATV not optionally allowing correct 24 output.
I think the last paragraph is what will forever frustrate people like you and myself. Is streaming really about quality or just quantity? Based on file size alone, I fear the future if it doesn't include physical media. I have a pretty damn big screen and I won't stream any service to it, that's for the other rooms. It's a mess when you blow it up to 120".
As usual with CNET thats not a particularly well written article. TV's have a 1080p 24hz mode for almost a decade now (since even before Blu-ray launched) My 2006 Samsung LCD can do 24hz. He's writing like it was first introduced on Panasonic Plasma's a couple of years ago. I've no idea what actual refresh rate my Samsung shows 24fps, its obviously some kind of multiple of 24hz, but its not written in specifications anywhere because it doesn't really matter - for all intents and purposes it looks the same as 50hz or 60hz mode, but movies pan smoothly. Its probably 48hz seen thats close to the 50hz it already does for 90% of the other stuff I watch (in the UK).
I agree with your sentiment that the ATV should do this. Just output a native 24p signal, don't screw up the content with a forced 3:2 pulldown!
Many TVs won't accept a 24p signal, and so Apple has taken the easy way out by not even offering the option (i.e. "it just works").
However, just to fix your particular problem, I wonder if your TV might have a Reverse Pulldown feature? Reverse Pulldown, in my TV, detects the 3:2 cadence and converts it to 3:3 in order to eliminate the judder. Of course, consequently the TV has to switch from 60Hz display to 72Hz display. I suspect any TV capable of 72Hz, 120Hz, or 240Hz should be able to easily support Reverse Pulldown.
Unfortunately TV makers can't just call features by their normal names and have to apply some marketing name to the feature. So it probably won't be called "Reverse Pulldown" and instead it could be called something else like "Cinema Mode" or "Film Smoothifier", or who knows what else. I suspect a lot of signal purists might turn it off, believing that it's undesirable processing (such as frame interpolation) when really it's reversing undesirable processing that has already occurred prior to the TV.
When I got my TV I had to spend an inordinate amount of time learning what each feature was actually doing.
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As far as i'm aware and as mentioned somewhere earlier in the tread, this is only possible if you feed the TV an interlaced signal, so 1080i. Then it can work this magic - unfortunately the Apple TV wont output at 1080i either!!
By the way don't forget that all TV's around the world are 50hz/60hz.
Just to add to the thread by the way - Apple closed by Radar on the 24hz output issue as its already been opened by someone else and thus is a "known issue".
And just to further to it - the Xbox One does 1080p24 but online its its Blu Ray app - there are loads of people on the Microsoft message boards going mad about it not switching to it for streaming services like Netflix and others when needed.
Not sure about the PS4.
And just to further to it - the Xbox One does 1080p24 but online its its Blu Ray app - there are loads of people on the Microsoft message boards going mad about it not switching to it for streaming services like Netflix and others when needed.
Not sure about the PS4.
I actually tweeted Eddy Cue about this issue at release. To be the complete streaming/set top box, it really needs 24p support.
Actually, a lot of new TVs don't support it. For example, Samsung's flagship 4K TV, the JS9500, doesn't support it (according to the article I linked down below anyway).
You sure about that? http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-test-results/24p
My Reverse Pulldown mode appears and can be selected even with 60p content; it has been confirmed with 72Hz output.
I have no idea why 1080p wouldn't work on that blogger's TV. All the TV has to do is buffer a few frames and look for a continuous pattern of 3 repeated frames followed by 2 repeated frames. I can only speculate that the TV doesn't have enough spare processing power to analyze full-field frames at a rate of 60 times per second, whereas at 1080i the TV has half the data to examine.
Geez, that's ridiculous on a multi-thousand dollar flagship TV. Even my seven year old TV I bought used from Craigslist has Reverse Pulldown.
Yes, ATV should output 24p in the first place! But there are other devices that are stuck to 60p too, like the XB1 streaming example. And some times Blu-ray titles are mistakenly flagged as 60p when they actually have 24p content.
I don't think thats the same thing - if its doing 72hz output its using a multiple of 24hz thus you're getting smooth playback. The 1080i reverse telecine outputs at 60hz (or 50hz) smoothy.
Most folk in the US would be better off setting their sets to 50hz anyway, the pulldown effect isn't as bad as aiming for 60hz. And all your TV's can do it as every TV worldwide does 50hz and 60hz now, there's no technical reason for the split anymore.
Yes, i'm not about 1080p24. We're talking about TV's that can reverse the effect created at the box (such as the Apple TV) for outputting at 50hz or 60hz instead of 24hz. Further up the thread it reports about being able to convert the mistakes of a 60hz output, but only if its fed interlaced for the TV to then convert to progressive. Its linked a few pages back. This is only in relation to boxes which don't have a 24hz output mode though, but it doesn't apply to the Apple TV as it has no interlaced output mode either!
I'm not sure how, 25fps and 30fps are not even acceptable standards for Blu Ray (no such thing as 60p...you mean 60hz based on NTSC 30fps frame rate)
Well, the article I linked to describes how the authors demonstrated that certain TVs can do reverse pulldown when being fed a 60p (and 60i) signal. This should very much apply to the AppleTV.
A yes, sorry you're right but still only 10 tv's on that list of nearly 50 in 2015 that can do it.
Yeah, I know. That's why I originally linked that article... so people are aware of this when they buy a new TV. More specifically, so people are aware that lots of new TVs, even some very expensive and top of the line 4K TVs, don't support what should be a standard feature on all TVs.
Yes you are correct of course, my apologies! I get these terms frequently mixed up. No doubt give me another 6 months and I'll mix them up again.
Watched the first film proper on ATV4 yesterday (UK movie, Four Lions), the panning was as expected dreadful, utterly woeful... There are quite a few distance zoom shots and pans inbetween scenes on the film, it was very noticeable.
I think i've foolishly got my Apple TV set at 60hz, I should probably have it set to 50hz at least it might not be as bad then (you'd think they do the automatic speed up by 4% at 50hz wouldn't you...then again even 24hz output appears too much to ask :/)
I think i've foolishly got my Apple TV set at 60hz, I should probably have it set to 50hz at least it might not be as bad then (you'd think they do the automatic speed up by 4% at 50hz wouldn't you...then again even 24hz output appears too much to ask :/)
The only options that could do anything really are the 100hz motion plus options, I keep turning this off as every time I enable it, it makes everything look weird.
There is a blur and a judder slider. I'll try it with blur turned off and judder half way and see what happens.
Film Mode only works if the feed it with a 480i signal which is a bit weird.
Sounds like the same options I have. I'm on a 2011 55" Samsung and can't use the film mode due to the lack of interlaced output from the ATV4 but used a review recommendation of reduce judder = 9 and blur = 3 which made a noticeable improvement to me.