This is kind of odd. I thought the early 2008 MBPs had this issue resolved (I'm' using one now). I had a 2007, and it died after a week. I bought it from a computer shop, so it had a 30 day warranty. I went and grabbed this one and it's been running fine.
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Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures
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tentales
macrumors 6502a
Exactly my sentiment! I'm no iFanboy, I've worked with everything out there and thus far, Apple has helped me in the manner you describe every single time even for out-of-warranty repairs. A rare case indeed and we have no independant reporting of the story, just what Rex posts on his blog. Healthy skepticism is prudent in this case.
Read the story again. The customer didn't refuse the repair, he refused to have a replacement 8600M, which he proved was doomed for failure anyway and as such, and justified by the judge, the laptop was un-repairable because the repair would be destined for another repair and so on. My doctor doesn't fix a broken arm by replacing it with a broken arm... he actually fixes my arm with a cast. Apple did not have a cast for this problem and therefore, did not have a repair to offer Rex.
If Apple would have been able to actually repair the problem by providing a proven reliable 8600M replacement, I'm sure Rex would have gladly accepted it. Apple's lawyers however, stated that it wasn't possible.
robeddie
Suspended
That's precisely why the guy did sue. He didn't want a 'replacement' that was known to be defective that would eventually fail too.
Those who say this guy is the moron for refusing the 8600 replacement board haven't read what I have, that it may very well be a defect with ALL 8600 cards.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1028703/all-nvidia-g84-g86s-bad
I think the guy was totally reasonable to want a replacement that WASN'T based on the 8600 video card.
Here is what I have found to be the best course of action when something is wrong that you think should be covered, even if Apple has said no in the store:
First call the Apple Care line, if they try to say that your system is out of phone support, explain to them that it is the graphics card that is still under warranty due to the replacement program, they should then give you a case number, write it down.
Take it to an authorized repair center that is not at an Apple Store and provide the case number from above, for example, by us there is Mac Mall. I find they are able to complete the repairs much faster and will do things that Apple won't.
For example, if the computer won't boot, they will say to the customer, we will replace the graphics chip and if that fixes it, great, no charge, otherwise we charge $x for the estimate, which will be deducted from the bill if you pay us to repair the item that is not covered.
They will also work with you, in my case, it was the case of my laptop that cracked and Apple agreed to replace it, even though it was only cosmetic. I took it to an Apple store that told me I would be without my computer for up to a week (yikes!), I said, I will have to reschedule when I can be down for that long. I decided to take it into Mac Mall, since there were one block from my work, they said it would take 48 hours to get the parts in, but that I could hold on to my computer until they arrived, providing that I left a credit card number that they would charge the parts to if I didn't come in for the repair (apparently they would have been charged if the repair wasn't done, so this seemed fair).
So, just remember that there are ways to protect yourself. Also, one other tip, do not by Apple Care. If you absolutely have to buy an extended warranty, but from Square Trade, it's cheaper and if something goes wrong, you have another company on your side to get it fixed. After all, it's in their best interest to get Apple to foot the bill for the repair instead of them.
First call the Apple Care line, if they try to say that your system is out of phone support, explain to them that it is the graphics card that is still under warranty due to the replacement program, they should then give you a case number, write it down.
Take it to an authorized repair center that is not at an Apple Store and provide the case number from above, for example, by us there is Mac Mall. I find they are able to complete the repairs much faster and will do things that Apple won't.
For example, if the computer won't boot, they will say to the customer, we will replace the graphics chip and if that fixes it, great, no charge, otherwise we charge $x for the estimate, which will be deducted from the bill if you pay us to repair the item that is not covered.
They will also work with you, in my case, it was the case of my laptop that cracked and Apple agreed to replace it, even though it was only cosmetic. I took it to an Apple store that told me I would be without my computer for up to a week (yikes!), I said, I will have to reschedule when I can be down for that long. I decided to take it into Mac Mall, since there were one block from my work, they said it would take 48 hours to get the parts in, but that I could hold on to my computer until they arrived, providing that I left a credit card number that they would charge the parts to if I didn't come in for the repair (apparently they would have been charged if the repair wasn't done, so this seemed fair).
So, just remember that there are ways to protect yourself. Also, one other tip, do not by Apple Care. If you absolutely have to buy an extended warranty, but from Square Trade, it's cheaper and if something goes wrong, you have another company on your side to get it fixed. After all, it's in their best interest to get Apple to foot the bill for the repair instead of them.
Free Replacement
Apple Europe, courtesy of the Regent Street store (London, UK), replaced my 2007 MBP with a 2011 model after this problem happened twice, the first time just inside the three-year AppleCare expiry date. Management at the store reasoned that as it was the exact same problem when it failed again just 12-and-a-half months later that I should have a new laptop. It certainly renewed my faith in Apple, hence this acknowledgement.
Apple Europe, courtesy of the Regent Street store (London, UK), replaced my 2007 MBP with a 2011 model after this problem happened twice, the first time just inside the three-year AppleCare expiry date. Management at the store reasoned that as it was the exact same problem when it failed again just 12-and-a-half months later that I should have a new laptop. It certainly renewed my faith in Apple, hence this acknowledgement.
There's one more vote😱
The 8600M had a 80-85% failure rate! However, according to the original lawsuit against nvidia, all GPUs were effected.
Despite Nvidia's claim that its graphics chip failures were limited to a certain number of chips manufactured for a certain number of notebooks, the Inquirer in July charged the company with masking the severity of the problem, alleging that "all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions."
if you read the Bloggers argument, he makes an interesting argument:
As the trial went on, I showed the judge evidence that the 8600M graphics cards were known to be defective, I showed him that I had an 8600M in my machine, and I explained to him that, despite their promise to do so, Apple refused to replace my board because it would not boot, and it would not boot because the 8600M had failed.
The judge accepted these explanations, and when he asked Apple what it would cost to replace my logic board if I paid in cash, I interjected and explained to the judge that if Apple replaced only the logic board, it would simply be another logic board with a defective GPU, therefore, such a solution would not be acceptable.
The judge responded by asking Apple if my machine could be fitted with a different GPU, and when they replied No, that machine will only accept an 8600M GT, the judge declared my make & model of MacBook Pro to be defective and unrepairable by any means.
Eventually, over the continued objections of the Apple folks (one of the guys kept arguing that I should give Apple one last chance to fix it), I was awarded a cash amount. The amount I was awarded is enough to replace the computer, which means that I should once again have a 17″ laptop. Assuming Apple actually pays me.[/QUOTE]
Everyone that says he refused a replacement must have missed this part.
Thats too many maybes, no pun intended. It seems like the guy was well prepared and the lawyers went in with a "this is a slam dunk attitude" and could not adapt when their argument was not working. I don't think that he was being unreasonable when you have been sold a very expensive piece of merchandise only to find out later that it was somehow defective. Then they try to give you the same defective merchandise as a replacement for you to take the chance again.
faroZ06
macrumors 68040
Yep, and a similar thing happened in 2006, affecting the late-2006 iMacs that were produced early. What I'm saying is, it only affected some of the iMacs with that model number, and it's NVIDIA's fault.
There needs to be a class-action lawsuit against Apple about this, and Apple needs to sue NVIDIA to pay for it. It's not Apple's fault in this case; it's NVIDIA's. Moral of the story: don't buy a PC model that has not been tested by other consumers. Never buy release-date.
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Apple, sue NVIDIA for all of the bad video cards they gave us, then give us our money back!
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Do you think I could get a new iMac if I took my defective one to the UK? It seems like all of these replacements are happening there under some kind of consumer protection laws.
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
That's how it should happen in cases like the 8600M which involve a known defective part with no guarantee that the replacement won't have exactly the same manufacturing defect.
(If it could be certain that they could repair your 2007 MBP with a 2007 MBP mobo without the defect, then you should expect that even outside of warranty. If they can't guarantee the repair, then replacement with a model without the manufacturing defect is appropriate.)
I expect that the most damaging part of this story is that many of the people who were refused coverage and either paid for the repair or bought a new computer are now going to join the class action lawsuit. Which they should. Apple sold defective goods, and Apple should have stood behind them.
Everyone should be thankful that at least one person said that "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!". (link to Youtube clip from movie "Network" (1976))
And it's *completely* irrelevant that the defect is in a sourced item - Apple choose the source, and needs to do right by its customers. If an Apple notebook battery bulges or explodes - you blame Apple. If an Apple LCD screen has dead pixels or white spots or the dreaded yellow tinge - you blame Apple. If the GPU in an Apple laptop fails - you blame Apple.
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faroZ06
macrumors 68040
It's a GPU that went into PCs made by various companies. So sorry (not actually sorry), but
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Same with the NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT. Geez, NVIDIA, I'm never indirectly buying from you again!
petervivian
macrumors member
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
everyone's mileage is different
I understand - you make your decisions based on your experience, as do I. My choice is to never use ATI if I have an alternative.
My experience, however, is that I've only had two real GPU failures in the last 20 years among the hundreds of systems that I support. One was an 8600M (replaced 3 years ago, and running fine), and the other was a recent high end Radeon HD PCIe x16 card that utterly crapped out. (I can't quote the exact model number, because it doesn't run to let me interrogate the card.) It was replaced by the card shown in the attachment.
However - I have had many years of fighting horrific ATI software drivers, and their "buy a new card, we won't support that card on Windows+1" policy.
Nvidia for me, always. For the software support.
I understand - you make your decisions based on your experience, as do I. My choice is to never use ATI if I have an alternative.
My experience, however, is that I've only had two real GPU failures in the last 20 years among the hundreds of systems that I support. One was an 8600M (replaced 3 years ago, and running fine), and the other was a recent high end Radeon HD PCIe x16 card that utterly crapped out. (I can't quote the exact model number, because it doesn't run to let me interrogate the card.) It was replaced by the card shown in the attachment.
However - I have had many years of fighting horrific ATI software drivers, and their "buy a new card, we won't support that card on Windows+1" policy.
Nvidia for me, always. For the software support.
Attachments
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faroZ06
macrumors 68040
Ah, drivers are something I never have to worry about 😉
So I guess that's why I choose ATI. Also, this doesn't really matter, but they supplied the GPUs for the GameCube, which I am a huge fan of.
What matters is how well it works when it is working. The MSI is at its best still only an MSI. It will never run Logic or Aperture.
Well, they repaired my friend's MBP, and it's working. She's happy with it. It went ~3 years before the problem cropped up, and we'll see how long it goes this time, but they did offer me (her) a repair, it was accepted, it cost nothing, and the computer works.
Do we know nvidia never fixed the issue? They just continued to sell faulty chips to all vendors? Maybe the chip was tweaked and fixed, and this guy is huffy about nothing? I don't know. All I know is this same issue was resolved free of cost for my friend, and Apple told us about the fix. We had expected to pay. It was a pleasant surprise. I guess it all boils down to a persons expectations, and willingness to give it a chance before refusing the solution.
I wish him luck with whatever he buys next. I hope it works flawlessly, forever. That said, I don't believe he was bullied by big brother...it sounds like an awful lot of drama, and potential page hits.
well sign me up for the class action lawsuit. my early 2008 MBP 15" stop booting right before going on vacation last week. Went to the apple store today and was told they will not repair it since it won't boot up. thing is, the laptop actually tried to boot up (I showed them this) but then power itself off since the GPU is most likely dead.
The "genius" claims that even without video cards the machine should boot up and you can even ping it from the network. I've been in IT for 17 years and have never seen a system continue to boot up without a video card present.
The "genius" claims that even without video cards the machine should boot up and you can even ping it from the network. I've been in IT for 17 years and have never seen a system continue to boot up without a video card present.
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
...and whether a person is aware that a large percentage (an earlier post said 80%, but without links) of particular models are likely to fail from a manufacturing defect. (and I bought about twenty of the Dells with that chip, and only had one failure - amusingly on the laptop that I issued to myself. Perhaps Dell has better cooling which reduces the probability of the failure, or the 80% number was pulled from someone's butt.)
For myself, if I knew that I had a system that was likely to have the defect, and it failed in a manner consistent with the defect, I'd be very insistent on getting a "true repair" (a replacement with a model or mobo proven to be without the defect, not a refurbed defective model).
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You've never used a VAX-11/780!
😉
Seriously, though, many servers have BIOS options to ignore keyboard and graphics errors during boot. Many server OS's don't require graphics. Windows servers don't even need a graphics card today.
KingJosh
macrumors 6502
apple are *******s. I tried twice with my macbook pro 2007 model with the failed nvidia gpu. Both times were rejected. I went and bought a mac pro 2008 model (yes my laptop failed after 1 year and i didn't have the extra warranty) in fact it failed 1 month after the 1 year warranty expired.
Now my mac needs replacing with something more powerful for my needs and I usually would just go straight to mac but since mac is on a decline with their os x turning more into a bloated ios i am not too sure about what to get. Hanging out for the new iMacs to see what they are like but if I am not impressed I am going back to PC (shudders). Apple can go screw themselves for screwing their customer (me).
Now my mac needs replacing with something more powerful for my needs and I usually would just go straight to mac but since mac is on a decline with their os x turning more into a bloated ios i am not too sure about what to get. Hanging out for the new iMacs to see what they are like but if I am not impressed I am going back to PC (shudders). Apple can go screw themselves for screwing their customer (me).
PinkyMacGodess
Suspended
It sounds like a good idea, a class action suit, however they usually only benefit the legal teams and rarely, if ever, provide any meaningful benefit to the class(es) involved.
faroZ06
macrumors 68040
Yeah, the GPU does not show failure if it is kept very cool. My iMac stays working when I set the CPU fan to 1600 minimum RPM instead of 1200. At lower fan speeds, it sometimes freezes up. I still have to make it higher if I want to play Minecraft or some game with good graphics (but surprisingly not for Final Cut Express or iMovie).
The chips can range from being completely non-working to only getting messed up when it is unusually hot, and I'm about half-way in between. Just from personal experience (knowing people with MBPs from that year), I think the number is way less than 80%, but it is still a problem that Apple should get sued for (then Apple can sue NVIDIA since it was their cards).
Also, note that the not all chips of that model were necessarily defective. The defective ones could have been produced early-on, and they were fixed for the rest of the ones that were produced without making it a new model. Most of your Dells could have been using the later chips, which were fine. This is what happened with the NVIDIA 7200GT, and I have a faulty one in my Mac that was purchased soon after it was released.
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This is just shameful, and the worst part is, it's right in line with most of my experiences with Apple geni. In all but one or possibly two occasions, I've gotten the feeling that they were trying to screw me out of as much as they possibly could and deny me as much as they could get away with. The most mind-boggling thing about this is, those one or two exceptions have been EXCEPTIONAL. I just don't get it. Depending on the genius you get it's like night and day.
the problem is that there are thousands of people with bad experiences with the downright incompetent staff at the apple store. The five or so success stories I've read on MR are great, but in no way the norm, especially in the case of a BTO 17" laptop replacement at $4k(?). Like all big companies I only expect this to get worse the as apple gets bigger and bigger. The sad part is that more or more of us are conditioning ourselves to believe this treatment is acceptable because the alternative is android/pc, and of course that will never happen😉
God you people don't think at all. If I wasn't an apple employee I would tell you exactly why apple didn't cover the cost.
Oh, the answer is obvious: so he'd buy a new computer. It's still inexcusable, and it makes me not want to buy from Apple.