Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures

[Goldenbear]

I never understood why everyone is so fond of Apple's "customer service"...

Because some of us have had excellent experiences.

For example, just over a year after I purchased the original iPhone, I dented the corner by the power button. I took it to the Genius Bar, explained that I had accidentally dented the phone, mentioned that it was out of warranty, and asked how much it would cost to repair. The Genius took a look at it and gave me a free replacement.

So yes, SOME people have bad experiences, but a lot of others have had pretty good experiences.

As for this case, there may be details left out, but on the surface, it does sound like a pretty ridiculous fail on Apple's part.

 

[thekev]

I run a rather small Mac Repair business in Southern Scotland. From my experience, I am quite sure that this is a much bigger issue than Apple have ever admitted to. I have seen dozens of these MBP's with the NVIDIA problem.

I have the NVIDIA test suite that is used in Apple stores and find that it produces very inconsistent results.

During the short period between the expiry, and subsequent extension, of the Repair Programme, i came up with a fix that gives the user a few more months of use. However, when the programme was extended, i sent all of my customers to Apple along with a prepared bunch of supporting paperwork and clear instructions on how to gently, but firmly, escalate the issue until a suitable resolution was offered by Apple. Until very recently, every customer had been successful in getting the logic board replaced. However, Apple are now refusing service based on the age of the laptop.

I don't really see them as premium products. I see them as computers just like any other. It's just that you get sucked into their environment with software licenses and OS familiarity. They've had many other recent issues. I don't always like how they handle these things, and the G5s were handled in a very poor manner. That's really cool that you gave your customers all of the information needed to push for a repair.

Sometimes you need a beefy laptop. It's not unheard of and it's not an unrealistic need. There are these things called professionals and sometimes they need to travel to places where it's difficult to tug around a Mac Pro and a 27inch monitor. There's a market for highend laptops that rival desktops for a reason.

I wouldn't say rival. I'd say overlap. They can be faster than some desktops, but you pay for the portability.

Why in the world would this guy spend that much money on any laptop. If you need that kind of power you need a desktop to begin with. Of course a large gpu will overheat in a laptop. Did the end user max out the ram or put in more than suggested in the Apple store configuration? To me it's just common sense..guess you can sue for anything though.

You really don't understand computers. How do you classify large? We're not talking about a mac pro like tdp range. The top imac uses a somewhat hot gpu, but it's also used in 17" gaming laptops.

 

[Romanesq]

Ding Ding Ding

They were all bad. NVidia never offered a non-defective 8600M. They fixed it in the 9600M, which is not a drop-in replacement for the 8600M. That's why when HP lost a class action suit about this, they had to give everyone a completely different computer. I've had 4 replacement motherboards for my four year old Dell XPS1330 (8400M, same defect as the 8600M) and they just keep on putting in new defective motherboards every time it dies. I've tried getting a new machine out of them with a different card (which no doubt would be cheaper than sending a tech over to do the replacement every time) but they will not. When the warranty dies the computer dies (got 5 years worth of warranty, plus a bonus year if the cause of death is the video card, but I don't know if I will be able to prove that it is).

Finally someone gets it right. The problem is that the video chip on the logic board was doomed to failure. Nvidia denied then admitted it and Apple made a three then four year policy to cover the problem.

What people are missing is this guy decided to fight for a replacement computer as the replaced logic board has the EXACT SAME TICKING TIME BOMB IN IT.

Had a 2008 Macbook Pro and heard about the problem. Forgot about it when it failed but found out it was covered. Since the machine would not boot for their test, Genius declined to repair without $300 charge.

Had to escalate it and Apple did fix it and replace it with another logic board. On it sits the same 8600 Nvidia GPU. It is doomed to fail and that's that.

So that's what the battle is about. This guy didn't want to accept a faulty time bomb computer with another.

Me, well I was grateful actually. The guy at Customer Relations was tremendous. I understand Nvidia screwed up and there is no other logic board with anything but the 8600.

Surprised so many overlooked this.

 

[Omek]

It's not just the NVIDIA graphics in MacBook Pros

Well hallelujah! I'm glad Macrumors picked up this story. I thought it was going to be ignored especially since the fact that Apple still hasn't properly addressed the display issues in the 2009-2011 iMacs that now include grey smudges overtaking the screen as well as yellow tinges usually on the bottom third of the display. This is getting ridiculous. Apple clearly has thrown customer service out the window. They've been telling people with bad iMac screens that they are having "environmental" issues and that Apple won't help them. Either that, or they've been replacing screens, knowing that the same problems will crop up again and again.

I hope macrumors will pick up this story as well. No one should have these kind of problems, especially when you drop $2K or more on a Mac.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/824940/

https://discussions.apple.com/message/17985525?ac_cid=142432#17985525

http://www.change.org/petitions/apple-recall-the-2009-2011-imacs

 

[marmotmammal]

I have a MBP from that era originally with the Nvidia card in question. Apple/Nvidia replaced it for free. It works well now, but at this juncture I'm waiting for a new MBP release. Kudos to Seattle Rex, but that computer is so old it deserves proper burial.

 

[HardRain]

Good and Bad.

Personally I have had both excellent service and some very poor service.
The good- smooth, helpful service that left me feeling well pleased.
The bad- being told I was making some up, basically denying the problem I was talking about. Finally they admitted and gave me some compensation.

The reality is that Apple are not THAT different to other companies. Even though they have made bigger efforts than many, there are still holes in their thinking, they are not all altruistic and stuff, like many would believe.

 

[Tumbleweed666]

chances are apple knew this would result in bad publicity, I doubt there was a lack of planning on apples part.

had they just replaced it there would have been either no negative publicity, or even some mild positive publicity. It was a dumb case for them to contest.

 

[brian82788]

I have the 2.5 Ghz early 2008 15" MBP. It broke about 2.5 years after purchase and I had not purchased apple care. I had even replaced the hard drive and done other things that obviously violated the warranty. I called them and mentioned the replacement program and they sent me a box to send away. They replaced it and it's still my primary computer.

 

[X Cruz 187]

Still available for replacement?

My brother has a 2008 MacBook Pro with this Nvidia 8600m GT. He's had a lot of problems with it, he didn't buy AppleCare. I'm wondering is it still available for a repair if he brings it to the Genius Bar? Sorry if this is a duplicate post but I don't think my original post went through?

 

[cosmichobo]

Very strange that Apple would do this considering how high they generally rate on customer service.

Apple tried hard to ignore eMac owners in 2006 when they started failing from bad caps.. the same batch of bad caps that had taken out the iMac in 2004/5. A repair program began instantly for the iMacs, but it was over 6 months before Apple started the same for the eMacs.

 

[TheEasel]

Do you think I could get a new iMac if I took my defective one to the UK? It seems like all of these replacements are happening there under some kind of consumer protection laws.

Don't know. I was not and am not aware of any UK/EU consumer protection laws that yielded the replacement response. Just a reasonable case, a long track record of brand loyalty and use of AppleCare.

 

[blouis79]

Seattle Rex had an easy time because the Nvidia GPU was already know to be faulty and subject to Apple recall funded by Nvidia. Users of MacBook Pros with apparently faulty ATI Radeon X1600 GPUs are not so lucky, since there is no acknowledgement of a fault.

See this apple forum thread with more than 1000 posts ("display anomalies"):
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1697470?start=0&tstart=0

 

[StoneyG]

So much crap from both sides on this. Apple handled it poorly, yes, but this guy has some bullcrap from his side, too.



Utter crap. Apple runs a specific diagnostic to test for the Nvidia failure. Even if you get no video but starts up, it still runs from a thumbdrive and dumps a logfile to it, which you read to determine the results of the test. If the Macbook Pro doesn't POST, then you CANNOT TEST IT! Furthermore, you CANNOT definitively say that it was the Nvidia GPU! Any number of failures on the logic board can prevent booting. Oh, it was likely that it was the Nvidia GPU, sure, but you CANNOT know that, and if it wasn't the Nvidia GPU, then guess who foots the bill? Not Nvidia. Testing it would require shipping the board to a facility where the old one could be desoldered and a new one soldered on. Not exactly the kind of thing you can do at an Apple Store. Granted, it didn't help that Apple sent some very non-technical chunkheads who couldn't seem to explain that to the judge.



I heard this idiocy a number of times when I used to fix Macs for a living. I wanted to shank them with a blackstick every time I heard it. GET OVER YOURSELF. Everything fails. Expensive things, cheap things, it all fails eventually. Sometimes it fails within a month. You could call that defective. Over three years? Um, no. There was a problem, but "defective" implies that there was a problem with it from the start. Not knowing for sure if this was the Nvidia GPU (as it wasn't even POSTing), there's no way of knowing if it was "defective" or failed due to any other potential means. The amount of money you spent on it has nothing to do with that.



Again, he has no possible way of knowing that. If it doesn't boot at all, then there's no way of knowing for sure if the problem is the Nvidia GPU.



ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! This is a 100% LIE. Why in the HELL would Apple be handing out defective boards, especially if Nvidia was footing the bill for the defect? No. Once this issue was discovered, the boards were NOT replaced with defective ones. At worst, he would've received a refurbished board with a non-defective GPU in it. I don't know where he came up with this hairy load, but it's utterly wrong.

Apple's biggest mistake was sending the weenies they did. Sending in someone with more technical knowledge than this guy (who doesn't seem to know as much as he thinks) would've probably won them the small claims suit.

I couldn't agree more. The fact that people here have down-voted your post, and the posts by the very few others who also truly understand what the [expletive] is going on in this instance, genuinely frightens me.

 

[justperry]

I couldn't agree more. The fact that people here have down-voted your post, and the posts by the very few others who also truly understand what the [expletive] is going on in this instance, genuinely frightens me.

What you seem to forget and the one you replied to ( Durendal ) is that often when one component fails another component will fail as well.
Example, when a resistor fails on the board the current could raise to a level a diode in the power section can not sustain and will also fail.
So, if the GPU fails it could be possible that the logic board will also fail.

Another point is that he was right to ask for a new computer, even if this time the logic board did not fail, at any later point in it's life the GPU would fail and that's a fact.

Apple should do a better job with this and could sue nVidea over this and get all computers replaced.

I myself have the powerbook G4 with the lower memory slot disabled and it's a known defect, mine was not in the serial numbers for a replacement but it should have been because all of them had this problem.
Annoyingly Apple could have updated the firmware to fix this problem yet never chose to do so, reason is they then had to give money back to those who fixed and paid for that problem themselves.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[Mackan]

Well done by the man. There's no other choice than to take Apple to court. Companies will always try to screw the consumer if they can. There are no exceptions. Honesty does not exist when enough money gets involved.

 

[EGrin]

Apple inflexible on repairs in the past, too

As someone who purchases many Apple products in bulk for my University research group, I've encountered too many cases where Apple has been inflexible or illogical or simply unreasonable in repair of known-faulty products.

I recall the case when two time capsules died, both were in different buildings (different parts of the city), both died within a week of each other, in both cases the death appears to be of the power supply and not the hard drive, a problem that is widely noted on the internet. Since time capsules store our valuable data, I wanted permission to remove the hard drives and back up the data contained in them, and then I want to return the time capsules for credit toward another item (they had not yet fixed the power supply issue).

Instead, all Apple offered to do was to replace the Time Capsules (I couldn't open them to remove my data, that would have voided the warranty, and they wouldn't open them for me to remove my data).

So I had to sit with the faulty time capsules for a half year before a resolution came up, where they agreed to take them in to replace the power supplies (without destroying the data).

That means the data was inaccessible for a half year *and* it means we had to purchase another network appliance in place of the time capsules for that time period (I wasn't going to invest in more Time Capsules!). So when they finally repaired them, they haven't been used, since we'd already purchased their replacements. And, they wouldn't let us exchange them for something actually useful.

 

[ZionTO]

In perspective though, even with these type of rare events, Apple is by-far, the number one rated computer company in regards to Customer Service and Satisfaction. And has been for a long time. So, just think of how many MORE stories there are like this at the other makers. And it would be totally naive to think that Dell, Sony or any other maker doesn't have similar complaints and claims taking place.

So for those who say; "This is why I don't buy Apple", I would simply say; really?. You really think this doesn't happen anyhere else?

(Just one such example)

THIS!^^^
This is the post to end all previous posts... I also feel good for Rex, but this comment should wake people up and get real.

 

[a random John]

I had the previous graphics board in my 2007 MacBook Pro. It began to fail while still under AppleCare but I was unable to convince the local genius that it was in fact bad.

A few months later it did fail completely and I had to pay $300 to get it fixed. That logic board with the same model of ATI chip failed six weeks later. They repaired that under the 90 day warrant of the $300 repair.

Five months later the computer began showing the same issues. I was told I was out of luck. I am convinced that the ATI Radeon x1600 cards are generally faulty and wish Apple had been willing to admit it.

 

[itr81]

When I saw this I got worried about my 08 Macbook Pro. Looks like I have 9600M so I got lucky I guess. I think my Apple care just ran out on mine too as well.

 

[photodenk]

I got a replacement

I had this same issue + a hard drive failure and battery issue. After refusing to let Apple repair the computer for the umpteenth time when my graphics card died, I spent two hours on the phone with customer relations and received a free upgrade. Much better than 2 months in court. Granted, the graphics card was not the only issue I had over the life of the computer.

 

[spinko]

I have a 2008 15" MBP which started showing the symptoms a couple of months ago. Then it died completely. I had to get a brand new MBP 15 (late 2011) because I was in the middle of production and couldn't afford waiting for a fix. Late November 2011 I took it to the Geneva Apple store where they hooked up a device told me that the machine wasn't covered.

Contrary to what some say in the thread this type of "grade A" computer shouldn't fatally fail after only 2.5 years of service. Even with a lower priced computer and an acknowledgement of the problem by the manufacturer a respectable company should and probably would have it fixed free of charge.

In the kb paper http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377 they have omitted a third criteria which is "doesn't boot". As stated in this thread, the failure of the video could also bring down the motherboard which basically disqualifies the machine for the replacement plan because it obviously won't boot anymore.

So, I'm stuck with the old MBP which has become an expensive paper weight and a new MPB 15 which just 2 days ago refused to recognize the internal monitor and displaying video noise on the right and bottom of the screen .. so I had to do some googling. Finally fiddling with the settings and reinstalling the combo update got it back.. but not a encouraging sign in any event. I just hope it is a software related problem.

 

[eddieever]

bogosity

There's something bogus about this story, eg, why he didn't accept a board replacement to begin with, and other contradictions (and also note that this is a one-sided story). The Genius Bar is VERY unlikely to let someone leave in a snit. Something else went on.

Also, this is utterly trivial.

 

[spinko]

Also, this is utterly trivial.

I don't think you would say that if you where directly concerned. Sorry but...

 

[YYR123]

More people suing Apple over silly things, what else is new???

Guess your brand new mac pro (3500) hasn't failed yet......