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Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures

also...

The problem with these chips is that they aren't soldered on the board well/correctly ... Most of the time, the crazy fix is to pull the board out of the machine and do a "solder reflow" ... this involves either a $2000 Infrared MAchine or the other two ways...

#1 Use a Heat Gun on just the chip. To do this you need to make a mask so that the other items on the board don't get fried or in the case of a capacitor, explode. This was my way to fix one ...

The #2 other way allows you to also keep your chaffing dish warm. Use some sterno in an aluminum cup and place it on the chip... then LIGHT IT ON FIRE. The sterno cup gets the chip hot and reflows the solder.

Crazy but true...
 
Apple makes quite good products.
I and, for what I remember, the people I know who have a Mac never had serious issues and Apple always did its job with full satisfaction when wa sthe case.
However Apple is often somewhat arrogant in the way they manage their relationship inside and outside the company.
In this specific case, I think is a good idea to suit Apple with a class action to remember them (and others) that a company is responsible of their products with serious and evident faults also when warranty is expired.
 
i paid for the repair of a defective GPU :( indeed 600 bucks, euros though) and they couldn't confirm it was the graphics card production fault because my MacBook Pro Penryn no longer chimed, which was claimed to be still functional with the faulty GPUs

i say not.. but hey, what can i do...

maybe there will be a refund =/

Greetz Apple-Guy
 
I sold my late-2008 15" MBP largely because of this issue- along with a defective battery and crappy Apple service. Im glad this man got what he was owed! Apple should be ashamed.
 
I still have this problem up until this very day...

I bake my logic board in the oven for about 10 min, 175ºC, about every 6 months, after which I'm good for another 6 months or so. (this is indeed a solder reflow) Last week my MBP failed once more, here's for hoping it will work one more time.

My worst Apple experience ever, I even paid them €75 just to hear I wasn't eligible for a repair (even though it is clear TO ME that the nvidia chip is the very problem (no image, fully functional computer, when looking through remote management at the Mac the video car id missing, etc.)...

I'm glad they lost this one, if I ever get the opportunity I won't hesitate to claim damages myself...
 
Durendal said:
So much crap from both sides on this. Apple handled it poorly, yes, but this guy has some bullcrap from his side, too.

Again, he has no possible way of knowing that. If it doesn't boot at all, then there's no way of knowing for sure if the problem is the Nvidia GPU.

ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! This is a 100% LIE. Why in the HELL would Apple be handing out defective boards, especially if Nvidia was footing the bill for the defect? No. Once this issue was discovered, the boards were NOT replaced with defective ones. At worst, he would've received a refurbished board with a non-defective GPU in it. I don't know where he came up with this hairy load, but it's utterly wrong.

suit.
Click to expand...
They most certainly do hand out defective boards because NVidia never offered a non-defective 8600M chip, which is why the judge correctly judged the machine as irreparable. Nvidia's "fix" was to make sure the 9600M did not have the same problem (which is not a drop in replacement for the 8600M), and give PC manufacturers cash for every chip that fails. It was up to the PC manufacturers to figure out how to solve the problem with the cash. The only way to give a user a non-defective motherboard is to give them a new model computer that does not have an 8600M chip. HP actually did this (although only after losing a class action suit).
 
aurichie said:
I have to side with Apple on this one. His laptop lasted a good few years and it was time for an upgrade imo. It's a pity Apple lost this case.
Click to expand...

Two things:

1. A laptop should have a usable lifetime of longer than 3 years. My main "work" laptop (14" Merom) was delivered in June 2006, and is running fine. My "travel" laptop (12" tablet) in March 2009. Should they have failed by now? If so, nobody told Dell to put in a 3 year auto-destruct feature.

2. The 8600M has a clearly defined and well known manufacturing defect. Many of them were defective before the box was even opened. Companies should stand behind merchandise which was defective when it left the factory - even if the failure occurs outside of some arbitrary time window.
 
I'm glad Apple lost the case. Apple's tech support seems to have gone a bit haywire over the last few years - in some ways it's way ahead of every other company, but then sometimes they do crazy stuff like this.

One thing I find strange is that Nvidia continued to produce and supply defective 8600M parts even after they've been shown to be defective, and that OEMs were OK with it. I'm no expert here, but I know the likes of Intel make small revisions to their chips during their time on the market to iron out defects, reduce costs etc. I wonder why Nvidia didn't create a new revision.
 
Apple-Guy said:
i paid for the repair of a defective GPU :( indeed 600 bucks, euros though) and they couldn't confirm it was the graphics card production fault because my MacBook Pro Penryn no longer chimed, which was claimed to be still functional with the faulty GPUs

i say not.. but hey, what can i do...

maybe there will be a refund =/

Greetz Apple-Guy
Click to expand...

I hope something good happens to you.
 
I was going to do this, as my late 2008 MBP's graphics card is also fried. However, it has 2 cards so I can use the slower 9400M one instead. It does make having spent extra on this computer a waste though.

I went to Apple 3 times with my faulty GPU and they all told me I'd have to pay for repairs, since I didn't have Apple Care. I then told them about the EU law about having to repair computers for free, but they didn't care. I didn't have the energy to sue them, but maybe I should have!

It's really a shame that these hyper-expensive computers are so likely to fail due to them using crappy nVidia chips. Apple doesn't seem to care, though, I guess they enjoy it or something? Why can't they just use chips that don't have a 99% failure rate like all those cheap computers out there?

This just adds to the fact that the DVD drive, the battery, and one of the fans also died approximately 1 day after my warranty ran out. I'm pretty sure they have some kind of timer in these things so that you buy another one each year!

Buy cheap computers and they'll last you a lifetime, buy expensive stuff and they'll fail within months!
 
KnightWRX said:
Apple can't always be the good guy, but why spend money fighting this ? Cheaper just to cover the repairs for what is an obvious defective product.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. This represents the uglier side of Apple's customer service, and as ugly as it is, imagine how bad things are at other computer customer services departments where the aggregate ratings don't rise to the level of Apple's number one rating.


It's too bad that the story doesn't disclose WHICH MBP's had the potentially bad NVIDIA cards, or WHICH NVIDIA cards needed to be replaced.
 
Apple Care provides a 3 year warranty. While I agree a computer should last longer than that, on what basis should someone expect Apple to provide free repairs once the warranty period has expired?
 
ChrisNM said:
Apple Care provides a 3 year warranty. While I agree a computer should last longer than that, on what basis should someone expect Apple to provide free repairs once the warranty period has expired?
Click to expand...

AidenShaw said:
2. The 8600M has a clearly defined and well known manufacturing defect. Many of them were defective before the box was even opened. Companies should stand behind merchandise which was defective when it left the factory - even if the failure occurs outside of some arbitrary time window.
Click to expand...

I think his response is very well stated. :)
 
baryon said:
Buy cheap computers and they'll last you a lifetime, buy expensive stuff and they'll fail within months!
Click to expand...

I'm writing this on my perfectly running late-2006 MBP. I run some VERY graphic intensive programs that turn the GPU area into a place I can warm my coffee. I'm surprised that the aluminum case hasn't discolored.

Furthermore, I've used nothing but Apple Macs since the very first one came out in 1984. Each one was still running fine when I unplugged it and upgraded to a faster and better machine. Each computer was so reliable that I often skipped multiple hardware upgrades.

Sorry... but God just doesn't like you.
 
Nvidia should've gone bankrupt from this 8600M fiasco. My wife's(then GF at the time) 2008 MBP 15 died from this and logic board replaced which then failed a year later. It was finally dumped on ebay after the 2nd board replacement. My Dell XPS M1530 with the same video chip also went through 2 main board replacements. This problem can never be fixed with a logic board replacement as it's basically guaranteed to fail. Nvidia should've been forced to REFUND everyone who bought a laptop with this craptastic chip.
 
ChrisNM said:
Thanks for connecting the dots for me - I agree, if it is a well known defect, it should be covered.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the nice response, I was afraid you might take my response as sarcastic (not my intent, but tone is so hard to read sometimes). :)

Hope everyone is having a great Thursday. One more day to the weekend!
 
The real reason these boards fail.

A few years back we discovered that lead (Pb) was bad for us.

We took it out of paint a long time ago.

Then, RoHS came along and required that lead get removed from electronics.

Lead has always been a part of solder, but it had to go.

Whatever compound Nvidia used as "lead free" on their 8xxx series GPUs wasn't quite right.

After a number of heat up/ cool down cycles a few solder joints crack and fail.

If you have ever seen a BGA chip, it stands for Ball Grid Array and it is a huge number of rows of tiny little balls of solder. The GPU board has an equal number of little dots. The chip is placed on the dots and when heated to 410F or so, the balls melt and surface tension of the liquid keeps the chip in place whilst it is allowed to cool.

Hundreds, maybe more than a thousand little connections. And at any point in time any one or more of those connections fail.

I have a box here called the "bake" box. It is 90% full of 8800GT cards at any given moment. They used same bad solder combo and fail quite regularly. It is very important after baking to not bend or flex the GPU in any way, or problem returns.

I have baked more than 100 of these 8800s. I have around a 50% fix rate.

8600 and 8800 have same issue, same "new" lead free solder. Sometimes the Mac will get to a messy desktop, sometimes they will lock up at boot. All depends on which one(s) of those tiny solder joints has failed. Suggesting that a machine that fails to boot may not have the issue is disingenuous at best.

Apple had a very interesting page about this in their support documents. It basically stated that Nvidia lied to them and that Apple engineers had caught them in this lie.

"In July 2008, NVIDIA publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect. At that same time, NVIDIA assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected. However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected. "

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377

It is likely that Nvidia found a better solder mix to replace lead. They probably use this new mix when they replace the chips.

But it was a stupid mistake and Nvidia should pay for every one of these.
 
soundguyami said:
Why in the world would this guy spend that much money on any laptop. If you need that kind of power you need a desktop to begin with. Of course a large gpu will overheat in a laptop. Did the end user max out the ram or put in more than suggested in the Apple store configuration? To me it's just common sense..guess you can sue for anything though.
Click to expand...

I just love when people blame the victims. You have no knowledge of the user's details, and you imply that a device should be expected to fail based on its official configuration; essentially, you're trying to make a case that somehow the user is at fault. Why??
 
aurichie said:
I have to side with Apple on this one. His laptop lasted a good few years and it was time for an upgrade imo. It's a pity Apple lost this case.
Click to expand...

Here come the Apple apologists... the fb's who think Apple can do no wrong.
 
I've only ever bought Macs or Asus based PC builds/laptops. I had one MacBook burn out the first day it arrived, had one iMac that wouldn't boot if both ram chips were in and had the display go out on a MacBook pro. Never had a bad experience with Asus, although my sister had a gpu issue once on an out of warranty gaming laptop and they sent her a new one no questions asked.

I think apples hardware is a bit overrated. I like their designs but it seems like they are going cheaper and cheaper on actual hardware.

----------
ChrisNM said:
Apple Care provides a 3 year warranty. While I agree a computer should last longer than that, on what basis should someone expect Apple to provide free repairs once the warranty period has expired?
Click to expand...

When its proven that they sold a defective product.
 
Bake Your Board

I booted up my MacPro with a Nvidia 8800GT card in it and saw nothing but
vertical lines on the monitor. I typed NVidia 8800 GT into google and came up with everybody was baking their NVidia Cards in the oven to fix them. I had nothing to lose so I took out the card and removed everything except the bare circuit board. I placed it with the solder side up on a baking dish with each corner sitting on a thick metal washer and then baked it at 400 degrees Fahrenheit for 10 Minutes, let it cool down, put it back together and It's been working fine now for 6 months (knock on wood). Your mileage may vary. :D
 
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