Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures

[Bkdiem]

This happened to me last night!!!

My video display has been tweaking for a month now and just last night the MBP crapped out. Excellent timing for this article to be posted.

S I'm actually on hold with applecare right now and they are looking into it because my 4 yer extension (from date of purchase) is a month expired. I bought the computer in march of 2008.

At first it was little difficult to get help through applecare because I refused to pay for a "one time incident" si
Nice the serial number indicated that the computer was out of warranty. Finally a real person got on the phone, "Constance" and she made it seem like no big deal, however her senior supervisor "Tyler" just got on the line, and now he's telling me there is nothing he can do. He just said "no", so now I've asked him what my options are, and he said nothing.

I had to ask him if I could pay for the repair and he said I could, placed me on hold, and said it would be about $300 - $350 for the mail in service. But he also explained that I could take it to an apple genius bar and that they have the capability to offer "additional authorizations" and that that "may" be able to repair it for free.

When I questioned Tyler about the note at the bottom of the article TS2377 that reads...

"Apple will continue to evaluate the repair data and will provide further repair extensions as needed."

... he wasn't sure what that meant. To me, it means that I am one person that requires an extension. I doubt I am alone. The fact that i missed the "4 year extension (from purchase date)" date by 3 weeks is a shame. I should have called and filed a claim when the video began to flicker back in December. The fact that I dealt with it instead of reporting it is my own fault. But I'm not really that kind of guy. I got it to work by turning it off for a while and letting it cool down. I should have called right away.

This references lots of other comments relating to the "hit-or-miss" attitude many of us have discovered when dealing with applecare & the geniuses.

I have a back up computer so I'm not über pissed off and out of a work system, but if I was relying on it I would be. I'll take my chances with agenius bar appointment and if I fail, I'll send it away and grudgingly pay the $350.

I'm disspointed in apple and would sign my name up on a class action lawsuit for sure.

My advice to anyone with this computer & Gpu, is to call applecare and report your video display is flickering & sometimes distorted but still working. Eplain that the system is still functioning , but you wanted to report the problem right away in case something fatal happens down the road.

 

[Sackvillenb]

This is one of the most preposterous scenarios I have ever heard of. On some many levels.... Good for the blogger for winning though!

 

[StoneyG]

What you seem to forget and the one you replied to ( Durendal ) is that often when one component fails another component will fail as well.
Example, when a resistor fails on the board the current could raise to a level a diode in the power section can not sustain and will also fail.
So, if the GPU fails it could be possible that the logic board will also fail.

Another point is that he was right to ask for a new computer, even if this time the logic board did not fail, at any later point in it's life the GPU would fail and that's a fact.

Apple should do a better job with this and could sue nVidea over this and get all computers replaced.

I myself have the powerbook G4 with the lower memory slot disabled and it's a known defect, mine was not in the serial numbers for a replacement but it should have been because all of them had this problem.
Annoyingly Apple could have updated the firmware to fix this problem yet never chose to do so, reason is they then had to give money back to those who fixed and paid for that problem themselves.

Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Apple's methods, particularly in the realm of service, that are questionable. But he didn't buy a defective machine per se, because he did get a little over three years of use out of it. I tire of "experts". What do I mean? This:

The GPU, as it is on most Macs, with the exception of Mac Pros and some iMacs, is PART of the MAIN LOGIC BOARD.

Yes, had he opted to accept the logic board replacement, eventually the GPU, if not some other part, would have failed. But had he got another two or three years out of it, that's better than par when compared to the life of most machines.

Also, I question the somewhat spurious nature of this guy's story. The fact that that machine never costed $4500 (try $3050), and the Applecare didn't cost $500. Even if he had gotten an upgraded hard drive, he could have taken that part out himself and put it in an enclosure. But instead of reading and learning about stuff, he opted to attract attention to himself. My attempt here is not to defend Apple, but to point out this guy's ridiculousness. All electronics have parts that oxidize and fail, regardless of how much was paid, and regardless of how much time has passed. Ultimately it's his own fault for ever choosing to believe that he was buying a product that would last forever.

 

[xytogen]

Long time reader, first time commenter

Thank you so much for featuring this article, my Macbook Pro had been gatering dust since it died in October 2011. Today it is with Apple getting the logic board replaced and should be back with me in 48 hours.

In October 2011 I visited my local Apple store after my Macbook Pro died where they gave me a quote of about £420 to fit a new logic board. At the time it was just diagnosed as dead, I hadn't told them the graphics had been screwy for a week prior to its death.

So reading this story yesterday got me thinking, and I went back to my Apple store today (4 days before the 4 year limit). After 5 minutes with the Genius my Macbook Pro was taken away for surgery, no great questions asked. Really pleased with the service I've received, just a shame it wasn't picked up on in October.

 

[zoetmb]

Very strange that Apple would do this considering how high they generally rate on customer service. I've had several products fully replaced, although to be fair my MBP that they replaced wasn't fully nonfunctional.

They could've easily saved themselves lawyer fees and this PR nightmare. Weird.

I think this is what happens as a company becomes larger. They put fixed policies in place and are less flexible. My family's experience with Apple has been fantastic, but this was all in years past.

My daughter's baby bent back the hinge on her 2002 G4 Powerbook and broke it. The computer still worked for awhile as long as they supported the back of the screen. She brought it into Apple who said it wasn't worth fixing - a new screen and/or case would cost too much. But then the graphics card went. So she brought it in just to have the graphics card fixed for which she was willing to pay. Apple fixed the entire thing, including the screen, for free!

Some years later, my son-in-law had bought a tower, but the power supply blew. He brought it in and they fixed it under the warranty. In a short time, it blew again. Fixed again. But he told them that if it blew again, he'd want a new machine. It did blow again and by that time, his model was discontinued so they gave him a completely new machine, latest model. Again, no charge.

In my case, my DVD-R in my laptop stopped working, but under the warranty. I went over the problem with a guy at the Genius Bar who was smart enough to realize that I knew what I was doing and had already done the diagnostics, so they took it in for repair, but told me it was probably going to take three days. I begged them to try and do it faster. I had dropped the machine off at about 1am (Manhattan Fifth Avenue store which is open 24 hours a day). When I woke up that morning and turned on my iPhone, there was a message waiting that the machine was ready for me to pick up.

So based on my experience, Apple has done great. And that's not to mention that I used my G4 Sawtooth tower for nine years (although I added memory, replaced the hard disk and changed the CD drive to a CD-R) with absolutely no problems. Still working perfectly when I gave it away.

My current late 2008 laptop is also "perfect" aside from that DVD-R problem. I recently installed a larger hard disk, but it still looks and acts like a brand new machine.

But I don't expect Apple to be as fair in the future. I think they'll stick to the strict terms of their warranty. The numbers have simply become too large. I agree that Apple was stupid in this case, but they probably didn't want to set any precedents for the future. What I don't understand is how this guy was able to get enough for a new computer in small claims court. Most small claim courts limit you to $1000 or so. And since this has taken so long, once Apple lost in court, why didn't they simply offer him a new laptop that doesn't use the supposedly defective chip?

 

[Dirtfarmer]

Lawyers didn't make that decision. Apple did.

Not likely that Tim Cook made that call. Or anyone with a brain in their possession.

 

[johanf]

Not only this one - more faulty graphics card

I face a similar situation:
The (at that time) expensive ATI X1900XT Graphics Card in our Mac Pro broke and caused large problems over a year (like unexpected hangs and loss of data).

After three years, Apple have finally admitted they got a batch of bad cards and would replace them free of charge or compensate buyers who had replaced their cards.

I´m still waiting for a replacement or compensation after 17 months ...
I have e-mailed Apple many times but they seem to replace their management In Ireland faster than replacing faulty cards!

I'm very disappointed at Apple now! What can I do?

 

[heffeque]

I had the same problem on my 4 years old 17-inch MacBook Pro with the NVIDIA card and without AppleCare. I went two times to the Apple Store in Carugate, Milan (Italy). The second time, after seeing the problem (it wasn't booting) the Genius checked if that was the problem (the card) and decided to repair. They gave it back to me the following day. Working perfectly (and without paying an euro ).

I highly doubt they changed your motherboard for free after 4 years and no AppleCare.

My early 2008 MacBook Pro's nVidia 8600 died a month ago and... didn't repair it because they wanted to charge me 700 euros.

Too much.

Will wait and see how next MacBook Pro laptops turn out.

 

[afawcett]

I have the same MacBook Pro. I just graduated and I need to pay off student loans/ buy a car. I hope it doesn't die because I can't justify buying a new laptop yet

 

[tentales]

Thats too many maybes, no pun intended. It seems like the guy was well prepared and the lawyers went in with a "this is a slam dunk attitude" and could not adapt when their argument was not working. I don't think that he was being unreasonable when you have been sold a very expensive piece of merchandise only to find out later that it was somehow defective. Then they try to give you the same defective merchandise as a replacement for you to take the chance again.

No pun taken. It seems like the guy had a legitimate case, hence my maybes. We only have his version of the events leading up to the court case!

My personal experience was positive. I had the exact same problem. My late-2007 MBP died (wouldn't boot) in 2009 (out-of-warranty) most probably because of the GPU. It couldn't be proven nor disproven because it wouldn't boot.

Took it to my local AASP, he ordered the logic board, 48hrs later I had a working MBP again.$0 paid. Gave it to my wife in 2010 and it's still working today. 4.5 years usage so far and if it fails again, I feel pretty good that Apple would replace it again, maybe even with a new MBP given the prior repair case (like some others have reported after repeated failures).

My skepticism of Rex's tale is based on his http://www.seattlerex.com/the-death-of-os-x/ rant a year prior. Read it and tell me you think he's not a little "intense"

 

[kf90210]

My video display has been tweaking for a month now and just last night the MBP crapped out. Excellent timing for this article to be posted.

S I'm actually on hold with applecare right now and they are looking into it because my 4 yer extension (from date of purchase) is a month expired. I bought the computer in march of 2008.

At first it was little difficult to get help through applecare because I refused to pay for a "one time incident" si
Nice the serial number indicated that the computer was out of warranty. Finally a real person got on the phone, "Constance" and she made it seem like no big deal, however her senior supervisor "Tyler" just got on the line, and now he's telling me there is nothing he can do. He just said "no", so now I've asked him what my options are, and he said nothing.

I had to ask him if I could pay for the repair and he said I could, placed me on hold, and said it would be about $300 - $350 for the mail in service. But he also explained that I could take it to an apple genius bar and that they have the capability to offer "additional authorizations" and that that "may" be able to repair it for free.

When I questioned Tyler about the note at the bottom of the article TS2377 that reads...

"Apple will continue to evaluate the repair data and will provide further repair extensions as needed."

... he wasn't sure what that meant. To me, it means that I am one person that requires an extension. I doubt I am alone. The fact that i missed the "4 year extension (from purchase date)" date by 3 weeks is a shame. I should have called and filed a claim when the video began to flicker back in December. The fact that I dealt with it instead of reporting it is my own fault. But I'm not really that kind of guy. I got it to work by turning it off for a while and letting it cool down. I should have called right away.

This references lots of other comments relating to the "hit-or-miss" attitude many of us have discovered when dealing with applecare & the geniuses.

I have a back up computer so I'm not über pissed off and out of a work system, but if I was relying on it I would be. I'll take my chances with agenius bar appointment and if I fail, I'll send it away and grudgingly pay the $350.

I'm disspointed in apple and would sign my name up on a class action lawsuit for sure.

My advice to anyone with this computer & Gpu, is to call applecare and report your video display is flickering & sometimes distorted but still working. Eplain that the system is still functioning , but you wanted to report the problem right away in case something fatal happens down the road.

Ya, in the same boat as you pal. I consulted not only the Apple Store people, but a local AASP and I talked to multiple Apple people through the phone. They all said nothing can be done under the warranty.

Keep us updated on how your proceedings go, good luck.

 

[heffeque]

I have the same MacBook Pro. I just graduated and I need to pay off student loans/ buy a car. I hope it doesn't die because I can't justify buying a new laptop yet

Hope you're lucky. I didn't enjoy seeing my MBP dying, that's for sure

 

[AidenShaw]

Forget about Apple support - hit tcook@apple.com then go to court

Ya, in the same boat as you pal. I consulted not only the Apple Store people, but a local AASP and I talked to multiple Apple people through the phone. They all said nothing can be done under the warranty.

Keep us updated on how your proceedings go, good luck.

Forget about trying to change Apple if you don't have luck the first time.

Your profile doesn't show where you live - but if you live in the US look at your local "small claims court". You (and everyone else with bad Apples) can individually take Apple to court for damages.

You even have a case from Redmond Seattle that shows a precedent for Apple losing this decision!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_claims_court

Small-claims courts have limited jurisdiction to hear civil cases between private litigants. Courts authorized to try small claims may also have other judicial functions, and the name by which such a court is known varies by jurisdiction; it may be known as a county or magistrate's court. These courts can be found in Australia, Brazil, Canada, England and Wales, Ireland, Israel, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa, Hong Kong, and the United States.

Typically you don't need a lawyer, and the risk (cost) is very low.

And, by the way, the "not booting" issue should be a non-issue. Apple should replace the mobo/system unless they can prove that it is *not* the GPU. If it won't boot (and if you can show that there's a reasonable possability that a GPU failure could cause it not to boot), then Apple should be forced to replace the system/mobo. It's "bass ackwards" otherwise.

And by all means, everyone with a dead system (and anyone who's replaced a system with these symptoms because Apple didn't stand behind its products) should send an email to tcook@apple.com and describe the situation and that you're going to small claims court over it.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

About time America bought in consumer protection laws, like the UK's Sales of Goods Act and similar Acts in EU countries.

The problem is that as long as our 'Rich man's party' is in control of any part of government, it'll NEVER happen. They constantly tell us how Europe is SOCIALISM and how evil you guys are. I think they're getting ready to start WWIII or something they way they badmouth Europe and Canada for that matter. Basically, ANYTHING that means one less Ferrari in the garage of a CEO making hundreds of millions of dollars is UNACCEPTABLE.

People wonder why Apple would bother to fight this guy in court despite the zero cost to them? I'll tell you why. It's because it would set a dangerous precedent (and ironically REALLY has now that it's been ruled in court) for future cases (for whatever reason) against any of their warranted products. Apple is not in the business of being charitable. They are after your MONEY and that's the bottom line as it is for any and all corporations. The real problem is that we've given corporations far too many 'rights' and they're using their power and money to skew everything their way. Congrats to the guy that won this case because it's a rarity. If it weren't small claims court, you can bet they'd appeal it as far as they could.

 

[wootdawg]

Now, the argument here is that an inability to POST can not be the result of a failing GPU, and Apple has sided with this stance in handling these repairs. The issue is that a failing GPU can in fact result in an inability to POST, which I myself have tested by an application of heat directly concentrated over the GPU that was sufficient enough to re-bond the fractured solder joints inside the nVidia GeForce 8600M GT package. The system immediately returns to full functionality.

Now, the diagnostics do not account for this. Whether this is as a result of a policy on nVidia's part or Apple's part is up for debate.

I just wanted to re-affirm what iMacC2D has said here with my own experiences. I too have confirmed that some failed Macbook Pro's, which are unable to POST, are in fact affected by the nVidia defect, which is causing their no-POST failure. This is contrary to Apple and/or nVidia's claim that no-POST issues cannot be related to the nVidia defect. This can be proven just like iMacC2D has said, by heating the nVidia chip, and watching the system begin to function again, even if it is only a temporary "fix."

Also, the more recent replacement logic boards are now a "REV 2" board (green dot sticker on memory slot) which has a newer revision of the 8600M GT chip. I guess time will tell whether they actually fixed the issue with the REV 2 or not. My Macbook Pro 2.2 now has one of the REV 2 boards and so far has been working ok (knock on wood).

I personally think there should have been a recall on all Macbook Pro's with the 8600M GT, regardless of if it was failing, due to the extremely high failure rates and known design flaw, but that's just me.

 

[AidenShaw]

I personally think there should have been a recall on all Macbook Pro's with the 8600M GT, regardless of if it was failing, due to the extremely high failure rates and known design flaw, but that's just me.

It's not just you ....

But, Dell and HP haven't done that.

However, I think that it would reasonable for Apple to simply extend the warranty for GPU failures to a reasonable lifetime for the systems - say 6 to 8 years. (And to instruct the field that "unable to boot" is a reason for a replacement.)

The failure rate is high, but it's not 100%. (My sample of about 20 Dell 620s with the chip, and 1 failure in 6 years says 5%. Of course, the Dell is usefully thicker and doesn't run as hot as a MacBook.)

 

[BR3W]

The Apple support document specifically lists the "MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz)". Rex upgraded the processor to 2.6 GHz, and Apple argued that it wasn't covered because that specific model wasn't on the list. But it uses the same graphics chip.

My guess is that the support document was intended to cover the 2.4 GHz 17-inch MacBook Pro and build-to-order variations thereof. One of those variations is a bump to 2.6 GHz, but that's not a separate stock model. But Apple's lawyers were either ignorant or intentionally misleading in arguing that the 2.6 GHz wasn't covered.

The repair should have been covered regardless of whether he had AppleCare or not. His AppleCare had just run out, but the repair program covers machines for four years, so he was within that window.

The 17" 2.6 actually has the same processor, chipset, and GPU (512mb) as the late 2008 MacBooks (that are not included in the support document) and may very well have been not part of the identified batches exhibiting higher than average failure rates.

 

[sha4000]

No pun taken. It seems like the guy had a legitimate case, hence my maybes. We only have his version of the events leading up to the court case!

My personal experience was positive. I had the exact same problem. My late-2007 MBP died (wouldn't boot) in 2009 (out-of-warranty) most probably because of the GPU. It couldn't be proven nor disproven because it wouldn't boot.

Took it to my local AASP, he ordered the logic board, 48hrs later I had a working MBP again.$0 paid. Gave it to my wife in 2010 and it's still working today. 4.5 years usage so far and if it fails again, I feel pretty good that Apple would replace it again, maybe even with a new MBP given the prior repair case (like some others have reported after repeated failures).

My skepticism of Rex's tale is based on his http://www.seattlerex.com/the-death-of-os-x/ rant a year prior. Read it and tell me you think he's not a little "intense"

Thx i actually read that blog before but did not realize it was the same guy. He does get real enthusiastic at times so I'll concede that but unless I knew for sure why he feels that way I would just chalk it up him being really upset about being given the run around by Apple. Plus he has some good points about the hardware even if some ppl don"t want to admit it.

 

[faroZ06]

Don't know. I was not and am not aware of any UK/EU consumer protection laws that yielded the replacement response. Just a reasonable case, a long track record of brand loyalty and use of AppleCare.

A few bloggers in the UK with the same faulty iMac GPU that I have got full compensation because of protection laws... not sure why MacRumors didn't mention them at all.

 

[chatin]

Apple burned by Nvidia.

Nvidia bad fill is the scourge of the earth. Chipsets, GPU's, ARM - this company can't make a reliable product. Apple needs to suck it up and not use them in the future.

 

[AidenShaw]

Nvidia bad fill is the scourge of the earth. Chipsets, GPU's, ARM - this company can't make a reliable product. Apple needs to suck it up and not use them in the future.

What is "bad fill"?

What Nvidia chipset problems? Apple's used tons of them, and I haven't seen anything about widespread issues.

Nvidia ARM problems? Links?

Apple seems to have had bad luck in selecting a few Nvidia GPUs that had some issues (although Apple's infamous obsession with "thin" has produced systems with cooling issues that aggravated the chip problem). I've been avoiding ATI for at least the last decade due to driver problems - and have only had two Nvidia GPUs fail (one 8600M in a Dell 620, and a Quadro that died after its fan failed - but you really can't blame the latter on Nvidia).

 

[StoneyG]

I think one issue nobody has bothered to bring up is the fact that this guy was likely the a douche to deal with from the start. Read his blog post. He sounds prett-ay self-important. [Insert "you can catch more..." cliche here]

 

[tentales]

Thx i actually read that blog before but did not realize it was the same guy. He does get real enthusiastic at times so I'll concede that but unless I knew for sure why he feels that way I would just chalk it up him being really upset about being given the run around by Apple. Plus he has some good points about the hardware even if some ppl don"t want to admit it.

There's a difference in being upset and taking your grievances to court. Sure, Apple isn't immune to hardware issues, they just design the overall package a whole lot better than others. That and their marketing, but they're boiling with the same water as everyone else. At least they have stores & Genius Bars with *people* you can argue with.

In his "death of OSX" rant, he has numerous false assumptions and misunderstandings how a UNIX OS works. Not knowing how to kill processes (kill -9 vs -1), misunderstanding buffer cache, memory mgmt and how network mount points work in asynchronous multi-tiered environments.

I could go on and pick apart his entire rant, but anyone here with a solid technical background (I've written code for RTOS platforms, Unices and worked for a well-known NAS manufacturer) will see his closed mindset. He's a Linux brat and OSX doesn't work for them. Fine, to each their own.
I just think he's got a negative mindset towards Apple a lot longer before his MBP died.

Besides, logic boards can die from any number of causes. I once blew one by connecting a standard FW400 drive to my MBP in 2004. Even then, although technically not Apple's fault, they replaced mine free of charge.

The overall question is, how long does any manufacturer of any product have to support it and repair it for free ? Typically the warranty period is the legal obligation. Beyond that, it's at the manufacturer's discretion. Apple extended it in this case to 4 years and left the window open for further extensions.

Not defending Apple here in this instance, but if all you need is a dead logic board every time you want a new computer/laptop/etc. then this would open the floodgates for frivolous lawsuits and we all know how to "fry" a mobo on purpose, right ?

 

[kdarling]

Rex still has to collect on the judgment, which covers the cost of a new computer and compensation for court costs and other minor expenses, and he remains concerned that Apple will try to avoid making the required payment.

If Apple drags their feet paying him, he could try to get a levy against the nearest Apple store like that
Florida couple did to Bank of America last year after winning in court but not getting paid:

They got a court levy on their local BofA branch, then showed up with deputies and moving company to take enough bank assets to cover the court-ordered settlement. The bank manager cut them a check within an hour or so.

I've known a few people myself, who've gotten liens on places like entire shopping malls because of settlements, and later those places were surprised to find that their multi-million dollar plan to sell was stopped because of a thousand dollar lien they'd never paid. Of course, then they paid up quickly.

 

[chatin]

What is "bad fill"?

What Nvidia chipset problems? Apple's used tons of them, and I haven't seen anything about widespread issues.

Nvidia ARM problems? Links?

Apple seems to have had bad luck in selecting a few Nvidia GPUs that had some issues (although Apple's infamous obsession with "thin" has produced systems with cooling issues that aggravated the chip problem). I've been avoiding ATI for at least the last decade due to driver problems - and have only had two Nvidia GPUs fail (one 8600M in a Dell 620, and a Quadro that died after its fan failed - but you really can't blame the latter on Nvidia).

Here is the best article ever written about Nvidia fill problems with the MacBook Pro.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1050052/nvidia-chips-underfill