Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures

[AidenShaw]

Besides, logic boards can die from any number of causes. I once blew one by connecting a standard FW400 drive to my MBP in 2004. Even then, although technically not Apple's fault, they replaced mine free of charge.

Please give us a few more details - on the surface I don't see why Apple shouldn't be held responsible if connecting a standard plug-and-play peripheral to a standard plug-and-play port blows the mobo.

Not defending Apple here in this instance, but if all you need is a dead logic board every time you want a new computer/laptop/etc. then this would open the floodgates for frivolous lawsuits and we all know how to "fry" a mobo on purpose, right ?

I agree with you in general - but this thread is about a model of Apple laptop that shipped with a known hardware defect, and replacing systems that appear to have died from that defect with systems without the defect. (A key point is that simply replacing the mobo with a new one that has not yet died from the defect was not acceptable to the customer.)

It also seems that some Apple models are rather famous for logic board failures. It would be nice for Apple to admit this, and offer extended replacement warranties for any unreliable system that Apple has made. Not for forever, but six years seems like a reasonable number for an expensive laptop or desktop.

----------

Here is the best article ever written about Nvidia fill problems with the MacBook Pro.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1050052/nvidia-chips-underfill

Thanks, that 3½ year old article had some excellent information about why the 8600M GPUs fail.

 

[tentales]

Please give us a few more details - on the surface I don't see why Apple shouldn't be held responsible if connecting a standard plug-and-play peripheral to a standard plug-and-play port blows the mobo.

I had bought a "no-name" 2.5" drive enclosure with an Oxford chipset and placed the internal Apple hard drive into it after upgrading the MBP internal drive.
It instantly crashed the machine, literally short-circuited it!

I walked into the AASP in Munich, Germany on a Saturday afternoon because I had to give a presentation on Monday morning, slightly panicked and told them the story. They didn't believe me and I handed them my drive.
After connecting it to one of their own MacBooks and blowing their logic board, they briefly cursed and instantly had me fill out the replacement form

I had my repaired MBP brought to the hotel at 8am by courier and was able to give the presentation at 10. I had a backup drive and was about to buy another computer in order to meet the deadline, but I was really surprised at the professionalism and speedy repair I received. This in contrast to a 2001 failure of my then IBM Thinkpad, which I had to sent back to HQ's IT department, because the company's coverage didn't extend beyond US borders at the time.

I guess Apple's fault is 50/50 here and could've easily been denied, seeing I connected a non-branded device (incidentally, the enclosure worked on a PC via its USB interface), but because it also happened to the store employee, I guess no further explanation was necessary.

Apple surely isn't flawless and sometimes, somewhere people will not receive good service, but I'm only 1 road warrior with a few positive stories and Apple has saved me on more than 1 occasion from embarrassment or long working nights because I had to rebuild that Oracle DB on a borrowed Laptop for the customer Demo the next day.

In the end, I believe you deal with a person in a store (not in a distant call center) in a friendly manner and so far in 27 years in this grueling IT biz, I've really only been disappointed once (but that's a whole other story).
YMMV

 

[AidenShaw]

I had bought a "no-name" 2.5" drive enclosure with an Oxford chipset and placed the internal Apple hard drive into it after upgrading the MBP internal drive.
It instantly crashed the machine, literally short-circuited it!

I think that I'd still blame Apple - consumer plug-and-play ports should have better circuit protection than that.

I can understand that you could blow the mobo if you'd spliced a 1394 cable to a 380v 3Ø plug - but a disk drive?

Did you ever find out what was wonky about the 1394 port on that enclosure?

 

[Bkdiem]

I made a copy of my previous post and posted it in the apple user forums on the official apple.com site. it was read by a moderator and promptly removed. whomever removed it was nice enough to provide a "feedback" link where the post was more suited. apparantly I violated the terms of the user forums because it sounded like a rant, and offered information about a decision made by applecare.


I commend apple in offering a 4 year warranty on the video GPU. even without applecare. apple was willing to replace logic boards & GPU's. I also believe that their statement "Apple will continue to evaluate the repair data and will provide further repair extensions as needed." is a good one. but what does it mean to apple? if the GPUs are continuing to cause system failures like mine why isn't apple offering this extension?

is there an email address that I can report my failure to so that the "repair data" can get to the right person to be "evaluated"?

"apple WILL continue to EVALUATE the repair data..."

in essence my question for users here (and there) is this...

how do we get our experiences with system failure to apple so that this issue can be evaluated?

if your fortunate enough to have your system fall within the window of time apple has left open you should have relatively little trouble getting a replacement system, easily extending the life and usability of your system for several more years. in my case I missed his window by 3 weeks, but my Poor timing is amusingly ironic. I have been experiencing symptoms for the past 3 months, which I dealt with by leaving my MBP on its end open allowing it to cool down, by periodically shutting it down (to cool) when I would normally have left it on, and by dusting off the cooling vents with compressed gas. Apples own statement of potentially offering additional extensions has me in a troubled position as I essentially prolonged the life of the GPU to just beyond the open window for warranty replacement.

 

[carlgo]

This is how it works:

The Genius explained that my MBP could not be started, so they could not run the test and so could not repair it under warrantee. I would have to sign a repair order with an estimate of $300 to start.

A supervisor heard that and said he was sure this was the chip problem, but their store's test equipment would not detect that, so it had to be sent off to a major repair hub where they had better testing. I would have to sign the RO, but he was sure that they would confirm the problem there and would fix it under the extended warrantee.

And that is what happened. It came back fast and fixed.

The problem is that of a perfect wave. The blogger guy thought he was special and should get a newer model computer.

The lawyers were totally unwise and unaware of their surroundings (or their boss at Apple was).

Apple did not prepare and communicate a clear and unified response to a big problem.

All this combined to make a mess.

 

[lilrush]

Because apple suffers from poor internal structure, and I absolutely guarantee that a higher up such as a manager made this call. Apple is the kind of company that will decide precisely who they want to **** and when and where they will **** you and they will go to the ends of the earth to do it.

Spartacus fans, Apple = Ashur, plain and simple.

 

[Daud]

Did I get a deal ??

I remember the nVidia fiasco but alarm bells were off when I recently purchased ($700) used Macbook Pro 17" Early 2008 with 2.5GHz processor. It came with Lion preinstalled and in excellent shape beside to my liking slight dim screen (on max). Then I started to investigate this model and found about this issue. The seller, a Cisco guy, says there have not been any problems and asked his friend about the purchase time: "early 2008".
I took it to Genius (fogging a bit about whether I have actual problems) and found during the checkup the purchase date 5/17/2008 (so still one month left). The test was performed by hooking an external unit/drive labeled nVidia to the laptop. He served several other customers so did not pay full attention. There was like 10 sec of pattern flashing but then there was only the grey apple screen with spinning wheel for the remaining 5 min. (I expected some heavy pattern flashing from testing the card). He then took the unit/drive and red some data from it, saying my laptop is not affected by the problem (it was made 3/2008). AS a gesture, he ran a hardware test suite finding several things:
- battery (seller reported he just purchased a new one, may need conditioning, I noticed some weird behavior like not charging when it should)
- hard drive does not have SMART enabled - explained that there is possibly a replacement drive there
-left heat pipe/proximity sensor faulty - one sensor from out of like 28 the laptop has, not certain whether important, he offered they will open and reseat cables free of charge. I left it there.

Please comment whether the purchase price is OK, whether this is max. I can test the card before the 4y expire, any advice re the battery and whether the sensor is an big issue.
Theoretically, I can still return it.

Thanks to all..

 

[tomjdavies]

that guy clearly knows nothing, I don't think his 2nd attempt is going to be much better.

Right on that one, I had a Dell XPS M1530 that had the 8600m GT chip in it, which failed after a year and a half.

 

[charlieegan3]

Right on that one, I had a Dell XPS M1530 that had the 8600m GT chip in it, which failed after a year and a half.

Is that what moved you over to mac?

 

[KurtangleTN]

This defect must now be added to the list of others that Apple have handled pretty badly...

1. iBook G4 GPU issue
2. PowerMac G4 'wind tunnel' models
3. PowerBook G4 lower memory slot
4. PowerMac G5 liquid cooling system

Macs are premium products that should come with premium service/support. If i own a top-of-the-range BMW M5, and i have a major problem with it, i expect my dealership to jump through hoops to satisfy me.

Don't forget the G3 iBook, motherboards with failure rates that would make an early gen 360 blush. They'd just replace them with another motherboard that will eventually fail, same situation at this guy.

The Macbook plastic cracking, crumbling, replaced and would do the exact same thing until they would tell you "That's too old to fix".

 

[crammedberry]

Don't forget the G3 iBook, motherboards with failure rates that would make an early gen 360 blush. They'd just replace them with another motherboard that will eventually fail, same situation at this guy.

The Macbook plastic cracking, crumbling, replaced and would do the exact same thing until they would tell you "That's too old to fix".

I actually had a G3 iBook... had the logic board fail on me 9 times, sometimes within days of it being returned to me "repaired." It was hell and eventually I told them I didn't want it anymore after sending in for the 9th time and asked for a refund. They bounced me around for about an hour until someone finally offered to replace it with one of the new intel MacBooks at the time. It worked out great for me, but other people weren't so lucky.

These things do happen and apple has a tendency of kicking the can down the road to try to avoid the problem until they can say the product is no longer in warranty.

 

[KurtangleTN]

I actually had a G3 iBook... had the logic board fail on me 9 times, sometimes within days of it being returned to me "repaired." It was hell and eventually I told them I didn't want it anymore after sending in for the 9th time and asked for a refund. They bounced me around for about an hour until someone finally offered to replace it with one of the new intel MacBooks at the time. It worked out great for me, but other people weren't so lucky.

These things do happen and apple has a tendency of kicking the can down the road to try to avoid the problem until they can say the product is no longer in warranty.

9 times.. damn.

I can't imagine how frustrating that was, especially if you relied on it at all.

You're entirely right about kicking the can though. The Macbook palm rest BS was pretty much the poster boy for that. Apple will replace them for free.. everyone says great and gets it replaced only to find they haven't changed a thing and continue to do it. It happens again a year or two later and you're told that it's way too old to be supported.

 

[pcconvert]

okay, I am in. Had three 2008 models, one 17'' and two 15''. Both 15'' failed and couldn't even start. They (apple) fixed one in summer last year and refused to fix the other one in fall. Their argument? because they couldn't start it they couldn't verify that the chip was the culprit. Kinda chicken and egg problem right?

So I was at the Roseville, CA store again today to check if nothing changed. Off course it didn't, lady over there - stone faced - performed the ritual of not booting the laptop and wrote me the $300 repair ticket. All the while I was telling her chit chat about the internet full of cases of failed nvidia chips causing laptop not to boot, I even mentioned this small claims case.... not a chance, off course she was not aware of macrumors.com and off course the only correct source of info was Apple's web.

Let's try the small claim ehh?

 

[KDNYC]

Now if only we could get those flaky superdrives covered. Mine failed a month out of warranty. Gah!

 

[fixmymac]

Don't forget the G3 iBook, motherboards with failure rates that would make an early gen 360 blush. They'd just replace them with another motherboard that will eventually fail, same situation at this guy.

The Macbook plastic cracking, crumbling, replaced and would do the exact same thing until they would tell you "That's too old to fix".

There are actually a few more things that could be added to my initial list. I would like to see an exhaustive list of devices and their know problems. The following are acknowledged ones and ones that i recall dealing with many times over the past 6 or so years.

iBook G3

1. GPU BGA failure

iBook G4

1. GPU BGA Failure & Controller chip issue (Fix for this detailed by me on XLR8 a while ago)

PowerBook G4 Titanium

1. Hinges snapping.

PowerBook G4 12"

1. Battery recall.

PowerBook G4 15"

1. Battery recall (multiple).
2. Lower RAM slot failure.
3. Screen Issue.

PowerMac G4 MDD

1. Fan noise issue.

PowerMac G5

1. Fan speed issue.
2. PSU failure.
3. Liquid Cooling leaks.

MacBook Air (Original)

1. Hinges snapping.

MacBook (Original style)

1. Topcase chipping.
2. Battery failure.
3. Optical drive failure.

MacBook (Unibody plastic)

1. Lower case rubber de-bonding.
2. Display assembly cracks at hinges.

MacBook Pro 15" & 17"

1. Battery failure/swelling
2. NVIDIA issue.

iMac G5

1. Burst capacitors

iMac iSight

1. VRAM BGA failure

iMac intel (first gen)

1. Failed lines of pixels on LCD.

iMac 27"

1. Dark patches on LCD panel (I am on my 3rd panel).

What else?.... poor quality chargers and the infuriating insistence that every issue is never recognised as being a widespread problem, despite oodles of evidence online.

Last, but not least, we have the Time Capsule PSU failure!!!

Can anyone add anything else???

 

[AbyssImpact]

Time to sell your Apple shares before it goes back down to $400.

 

[andre.olive]

I have two MBPro 15" 2.4 Ghz. One of them I bought in Milan, Italy, on September 2007, for 2200,00 EUR, which is the MBP 3.1, model A1226. The other one I bought in Toronto, Canada, on May 2008, which is the 4.1 (A1260) and with this one I also bought the Applecare. Both are equipped with the Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz
On January 2010, the MBP 3.1 presented me the Nvidia issue (apple article: TS2377) with the chime on boot and the blank screen. Brought it to an AASP in Madrid, Spain, with the TS2377 article in hands. They ran the USB Nvidia GPU test, not in front of me, and they told me that the logic board replacement was going to be covered by Apple/Nvidia, the Apple's Quality Program E1. One week later I had it back and running.
On March 05, sadly, the same thing happened with my MBPro 4.1, model A1260. Although this time there was no chime on boot, only the blank screen with the superdrive and hard disk noise plus the lid light on when I powered it on. My Applecare expired last year (It was pretty much useless for me). So I brought it to another AASP in Madrid and they refused to accept it as the Nvidia GPU issue, stating that it was related to the logic board/graphic board, but not related to the article TS2377. Their decision to refuse it was based on the fact that they were not able to run the Nvidia GPU Diagnostic test and hence there was no error code to report to Apple/Nvidia. The price for the Logic Board replacement plus labor and tax: 597,00 EUR. I refused to pay for the fix and took it back.
What I pretty much understand is that Nvidia 8600GT GPU is onboard, it is part of the logic board, and I doubt that the USB Nvidia GPU test is flawless on diagnosing all the Nvidia related cases (TS23277). If you have no chime on boot, they can't even run the NVidia USB test and so they simply assume it's a logic board issue. Beside Nvidia GPU rests the Intel Core 2 Duo processor. Neither the CPU nor the GPU can be replaced easily on the logic board. I doubt that most of the AASP can point out precisely where in the logic board resides the problem if the Nvidia GPU did not cause it. They simply refuse it and state that a LB replacement is the only way to fix it. It's definitely not my problem if Apple/AASP can't diagnose/fix it properly, specially when the problem is already very well known by Apple and Nvidia.
I didn't give up and took it to an Apple Store in Madrid, on March 9, 2012. A really friendly "Genius" lady tried, to run the Nvidia USB test twice and after she was convinced it wasn't booting properly she took it and told me they were going to “fix” it (replace the logic board) at no cost, under the "Quality Program E1". After two weeks I got it back up and running. After some effort from my side, I can’t complain… Apple solved it. Sadly, for the guy on this post, it wasn't easy, it was UGLY, inelegant and scary… It wasn't easy also for people that decided to cook their “books” (link below).
It is frustrating to pay 3900 EUR for two Macbooks Pro that both will only last for 3 years… 3 years? Is it a coincidence or a planned durability policy? Six months ago, just before the second MBP Nvidia fail, I bought a new MB Air 13", equipped with the intel i7 / 256GB SSD / 4GB Ram, as a gift to my wife and I was expecting it to last for at least 4 to 5 years, even if I plan to buy her a new one within the next 2 or 3 years. Don’t know how long it will last though. I still have two PCs running Linux (Fedora 14 and Debian), since 2006, which are lasting for almost 6 years, flawlessly. I didn't mention the small issues I was able to address myself... 85W MBP power supplier cord fraying... One Superdrive substitution under warranty (MBP A1226), I/O left board failure (it leads to no sound, no Wi-Fi and no led lights for the screen)...
I am waiting for the new model releases of the macbook pro and iMac. However, ironically, it is time to start thinking different. I am still a big fan of Apple computers, but I know I have other options and alternatives too and I’m sure I can make them work pretty well for me. I'm carefully considering what are going to be my next laptop and desktop computers. MBP/iMac or PC Linux.

Further info I collected when I was having problems to make AASP recognize the issue:

People are cooking their “books” …
http://russell.heistuman.com/2010/04/27/cooking-the-books-or-baking-my-macbook-pro-logic-board/

Apple (last updated on 2011 Sep)
MacBook Pro: Distorted video or no video issues
https://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377

The Inquirer (Dec 2008) - INQUIRER confirms Apple Macbook Pros have Nvidia bad bump material
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...s-apple-macbook-pros-nvidia-bad-bump-material

The Inquirer (Dec 2008) - Nvidia chips show underfill problems
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1050052/nvidia-chips-underfill

CNET (Dec 2008) - Allegations, denials of 'bad' Nvidia chips in MacBook Pros
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10119277-64.html?tag=mncol;title

Gizmodo (Dec 2008) - Do the New MacBook Pros Have Faulty Nvidia Graphics Cards?
http://gizmodo.com/5107277/do-the-new-macbook-pros-have-faulty-nvidia-graphics-cards

 

[cppp]

3 times unlucky

My Macbook pro has had this issue not once, BUT TWICE before. Both times it got fixed while the program was still running.

My laptop has just reached the end of that 4 year agreement and it has now just happened a THIRD time.
I rang apple and as a result i now have an unusable laptop that has been affected 3 times by the defective GPU problem, and i have to foot the bill if i decide i want to repair it this time.

What can i do? who can i talk to? as i don't think this is fair.

 

[tentales]

I think that I'd still blame Apple - consumer plug-and-play ports should have better circuit protection than that.

I can understand that you could blow the mobo if you'd spliced a 1394 cable to a 380v 3Ø plug - but a disk drive?

Did you ever find out what was wonky about the 1394 port on that enclosure?

Nope. A $40 enclosure really wasn't worth my time, I told them to keep it and I bought a different one later. I don't have much time to tinker with stuff anymore. It just has to work. If I wanted to spent a third of my time troubleshooting my work computer, I'd have stayed with my Wintel laptop years ago

Generally, I'm not quick to blame anybody for technical failures. Everybody has them! I've worked long enough in this industry and learned that it's an incredible waste of time to get riled up over who's fault this or that is.
I've spent 6 years in 3rd level tech support (next to my regular duties in tech sales), nothing surprise me much anymore

 

[ServiceTag]

This is absolutely true. In order to be reimbursed by Nvidia for the repair, the Genius MUST run the GPT3T108 test booted from an external USB hard drive. If the machine fails this test, it gives a code to include with the repair order. Without this code, Nvidia will not cover the repair. The test suite will still run even if the display will no longer work (diagnostic flashes are sent to the sleep light indicator).

The catch 22 is if the GPU has failed to the point it will no longer boot, you are completely out of luck as they cannot boot from the external disk. You will be told that Depot repair is your only option.

Something rotten goes with all this Apple/nVidia GPU problem/test. They run twice that test in two different Genius Bars and I have been told nVidia test shows my MBP is not nVidia GPU problem. Apple was asking $300+ for repair.
I called my local LB guru and he fixed my MBP for less than that. and you can guess what he replaced - nVidia GPU!!!! He gave me even bad nVidia chip.
I am really wondering how Apple would defend my case.
I should ask Apple to cover my repair expenses which I didn't. But I know Apple is not what to used to be anymore....

 

[ts1973]

Imho there is a simple courtesy that Apple/nVidia could give us : make the diagnostic tool publicly available !

To the best of my knowledge, the tool is nowhere out in the open (not even on torrent sites). I already had to pay (€75) just to take my MBP in and let it being diagnosed, these are costs that are not necessary.

Of course, I'm afraid this will never happen, as there might be too many people "suddenly" seeing that there machines indeed have the same problem.

 

[baryon]

I'm writing this on my perfectly running late-2006 MBP. I run some VERY graphic intensive programs that turn the GPU area into a place I can warm my coffee. I'm surprised that the aluminum case hasn't discolored.

Furthermore, I've used nothing but Apple Macs since the very first one came out in 1984. Each one was still running fine when I unplugged it and upgraded to a faster and better machine. Each computer was so reliable that I often skipped multiple hardware upgrades.

Sorry... but God just doesn't like you.

Well I'm sad to hear that God expresses his love through failing GPUs!

 

[KurtangleTN]

My Macbook pro has had this issue not once, BUT TWICE before. Both times it got fixed while the program was still running.

My laptop has just reached the end of that 4 year agreement and it has now just happened a THIRD time.
I rang apple and as a result i now have an unusable laptop that has been affected 3 times by the defective GPU problem, and i have to foot the bill if i decide i want to repair it this time.

What can i do? who can i talk to? as i don't think this is fair.

Complain, be an ******* if you have to because it isn't acceptable. Ask for managers, supervisors, etc. Don't accept no for an answer.

You should also give it a shot at asking for a replacement vs a fix that's gonna fail again.

 

[cosmichobo]

My Macbook pro has had this issue not once, BUT TWICE before. Both times it got fixed while the program was still running.

My laptop has just reached the end of that 4 year agreement and it has now just happened a THIRD time.
I rang apple and as a result i now have an unusable laptop that has been affected 3 times by the defective GPU problem, and i have to foot the bill if i decide i want to repair it this time.

What can i do? who can i talk to? as i don't think this is fair.

Ringing wont help, as it's easy to ignore someone's pleas on the phone.

Go into an AppleStore (assuming one is near enough) and make your stand there. As noted - if the answer is no, don't accept it. Ask for a supervisor... a manager... DON'T be an ******* up front - as the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar... Be polite.

As a fall back plan, have a copy of a media story about this Blogger's success in taking Apple to the small claims court... But I wouldn't mention it before using it as your draw card...

 

[ImaBigD]

Wow fanboy much? Apple dragged this poor bastard through the coals to repair a laptop that they absolutely should have repaired. They even admitted as much in court. This is big bad Apple flexing it's muscle at a consumer for no reason other then they could.

If this is what Steve Job's passing means for Apple then I'm truly saddened. This is not the Apple I remember. Those of us who were alive long enough to remember the Think Different campaigns and falling in love with what Apple represented should be terrified about the direction this company is headed in.

More people suing Apple over silly things, what else is new???