Class Action lawsuit filed against Apple

[lindsayanng]

I am telling you that it is a combination of both the network and the phone, and that also seems to be the general consensus of most people who have done research on this as well. just read the article i linked you too. they also feel that way, and that is one of MANY articles.

my actualy point here is not to argue what is causing the dropped calls, i was just simply saying that there is no real basis for a lawsuit. The fact that you have a return policy or a chance to wait until the issue is fixed is enough of a reason to not have one. On top of the fact that the phone is capabable of doing what it says it can, it jsut can not do it for everything, which again, is where the return policy comes into play.

Do some research on cellphone coverage law suits, not ONE ever made it into court, whether it was based from the carrier of the phone. the chances of this making it into court is insanely slim to none, and if it does, i doubt anyone will win anything.

 

[aristobrat]

you don't get it do you? a lot of ppl can't make or receive calls, with such a large % of dropped calls as to make the core function of the phone completely unreliable.

What I don't get is why "a lot of ppl" didn't return the stupid phone during the 30 day return window (that's setup precisely for people to test the network and phone at any location they want to see if it meets their needs) when they figured that phone and/or network didn't meet their needs?

If this lawsuit plays out like 99% of the other Apple ones, it will end with an out-of-court settlement that will do jack squat for the 'lot of ppl'.

IMO, the issue is that 'a lot of ppl' love the other functions of the iPhone so much that they're unwilling to return the device even though it doesn't work for them as it should (i.e. as a phone). Now they're frustrated and want a magical fix to make the device work, and since they aren't able to 'have their cake and eat it too', they'll try to make this a legal issue in order to make that 'magical fix' happen sooner.

 

[lindsayanng]

What I don't get is why "a lot of ppl" didn't return the stupid phone during the 30 day return window (that's setup precisely for people to test the network and phone at any location they want to see if it meets their needs) when they figured that phone and/or network didn't meet their needs?

If this lawsuit plays out like 99% of the other Apple ones, it will end with an out-of-court settlement that will do jack squat for the 'lot of ppl'.

IMO, the issue is that 'a lot of ppl' love the other functions of the iPhone so much that they're unwilling to return the device even though it doesn't work for them as it should (i.e. as a phone). Now they're frustrated and want a magical fix to make the device work, and since they aren't able to 'have their cake and eat it too', they'll try to make this a legal issue in order to make that 'magical fix' happen sooner.

EXACTLY!

 

[Pandora01]

What I don't get is why "a lot of ppl" didn't return the stupid phone during the 30 day return window (that's setup precisely for people to test the network and phone at any location they want to see if it meets their needs) when they figured that phone and/or network didn't meet their needs?

This is just a guess and it won't apply to everyone, but I know that many people on this board only started experiencing problems after 2.0.2 came out, by which time they would have missed the 30-day window if they bought their phone on launch day. I myself only started experiencing certain problems after 2.0.1 and 2.0.2 came out. Luckily, reception is not one of my problems. *knock wood*

 

[tlapple]

maybe this will make you see the REAL issues in a different light

The dropped calls and 3G issues are effecting 2%-3% of all iphone customers. The usually number of people who experience dropped calls on ATT's service is 1% of people. Now that 1% is actually only people who complained. There are probably a LOT more peopel complaining about their iphone than about their free phone, so even that number is skewed a tad.. either way you look at it, the issues with the iphone is not nearly as signficant as you think

Reference link

You have completely confused the #s. The 1% is for total CALLS dropped on AT&T. The 2-3% is for total USERS affected worldwide and has nothing to do with how many dropped calls they've actually had. That means that 2-3% is having constant problems and dropped calls, not just 2-3% of their calls are getting dropped. Steve Jobs said:

"We are working on some bugs which affect around 2% of the iPhones shipped, and hope to have a software update soon."

the theiphoneblog.com stated:

"If this is authentic, and 2% is a solid number, given that the iPhone 3G sold 1 million units its first weekend, and may be over 3 million units now, that’s a staggering 60,000+ users potentially affected, — never mind 20 more countries set to launch later this week."

You don't think 60,000+ potentially defective phones is "significant"?

 

[aristobrat]

This is just a guess and it won't apply to everyone, but I know that many people on this board only started experiencing problems after 2.0.2 came out, by which time they would have missed the 30-day window if they bought their phone on launch day. I myself only started experiencing certain problems after 2.0.1 and 2.0.2 came out. Luckily, reception is not one of my problems. *knock wood*

From reading the summary of the lawsuit, that doesn't apply to Ms. Smith. She apparently knew of the issues "immediately after the purchase".

Smith purchased her new iPhone 3G sometime after it went on sale on July 11, after being bombarded with ads on TV, radio, and print about the device. "One could barely turn on the television without hearing that the new iPhone 3G was 'twice as fast for half the price,'" reads the complaint. Immediately after the purchase, however, Smith noticed that the iPhone's data connection, e-mail, SMS, and other communications were slower than expected, and that the device only appeared to connect to AT&T's 3G network less than 25 percent of the time. She also experienced an "inordinate amount of dropped calls," according to the lawsuit.

 

[Trajectory]

Why doesn't this suit include AT&T? I mean, they are the ones responsible for providing the cellular network connection, why is Apple alone being sued?

 

[aristobrat]

You don't think 60,000+ potentially defective phones is "significant"?

IMO, it doesn't matter if it's significant or not when the fact is that those 60,000 customers had the ability to return the phone and cancel their contract. They had recourse that didn't involve the legal system.

Why doesn't this suit include AT&T? I mean, they are the ones responsible for providing the cellular network connection, why is Apple alone being sued?

IMO, because Apple has an excellent track record for settling out of court. Pick an Apple issue that's in the media, get a lawyer, try to turn it into a class action, get some media about it, then sit back and make some money.

People were doing class action lawsuits last year because the iPhone battery wasn't removable. And before that, because the Nano scratched too easily.

 

[Pandora01]

From reading the summary of the lawsuit, that doesn't apply to Ms. Smith. She apparently knew of the issues "immediately after the purchase".

That's what I said: "... and it won't apply to everyone..."

However, this is precisely why people launch class action suits; to bolster their case with the strength of a collective rather than try to sue with their own individual, possibly weak case.

 

[marksman]

Lawsuits aren't going to affect them any more than they ever have. Which is to say, hardly at all.

Apple's legal team is already responsible for crippling things, what with their insertion of "no navigation" software provisos in the SDK... along with the ridiciulous NDAs so that programmers can't even write books on how to legally program for the iPhone.

Not to mention Apple's visible efforts at locking down the phone, while pretending that it's all "accidental".

As for comparing to other phones and their 3G operations... the difference is, other phones don't have CEOs prancing around on stage making all sorts of performance and price claims... and releasing software clearly ahead of doing much testing.

I'm 55. I've seen many things come and go in the computer industry, and have been involved in many product launches. And lately, Apple is just plain screwing up. They need to slow down and do things right.

I disagree.

If they had a certified class action lawsuit against them, every single action would be gone over with a fine tooth comb in regards to how it would impact that specific case.

Without the case this would not happen, you would just have the normal legal obstacles. This creates a whole new layer which will only slow down and potentially retard or even in some cases completely stop Apple from providing additional fixes and repairs as and when they might be needed.

There is no good served by the customer by this at all.

 

[tlapple]

From reading the summary of the lawsuit, that doesn't apply to Ms. Smith. She apparently knew of the issues "immediately after the purchase".

Doesn't matter. If, and I say IF, so no one flips out cuz it is not yet determined, it turns out to be a hardware issue with the iPhone, since Apple continues to sell the iPhone, and she is an owner of the iPhone, she has standing to bring the lawsuit to represent all iPhone 3G owners. The damages would continue until Apple fixes (again if this is the issue) it.

Knowledge of defect is not a defense to breach of warranty. You are selling a product that carries with it an implied promise that it does not have defective parts. You breach it every time you make a sale, whether or not the consumer can return it.

 

[Sun Baked]

IMO, it doesn't matter if it's significant or not when the fact is that those 60,000 customers had the ability to return the phone and cancel their contract. They had recourse that didn't involve the legal system.

Yep, they had a chance to walk away ... from AT&T.

And Apple builds the phone and warranty service, and AT&T provides the network and phone service.

This lawsuit is quite similar to somebody suing Apple because their Cox Internet service sucks. And since Apple still does have a lot of wireless connectivity issues ... surprised it hasn't happened.

With this lady leaving off AT&T from the lawsuit, a simple finger pointing exercise to AT&T can confuse matters to the point that the judge will boot the lawsuit.

 

[Trajectory]

IMO, because Apple has an excellent track record for settling out of court. Pick an Apple issue that's in the media, get a lawyer, try to turn it into a class action, get some media about it, then sit back and make some money.

People were doing class action lawsuits last year because the iPhone battery wasn't removable. And before that, because the Nano scratched too easily.

Unfortunately, the only people who will make some money are the lawyers. I guess Apple, being the innovators that they are, have had to deal with more than their fair share of frivolous lawsuits in the past. I wonder if that's partially why their stuff costs more.

 

[deannnnn]

People are annoying.

 

[leopoldbloom]

Well, my iPhone for the most part works as advertised... I certainly don't get dropped calls.

Now I'm no lawyer, but it does seem that the complaint is rather subjective. There really are just too many variables: network, current usage (functions other than the phone etc).

One thing that is interesting, is that this is getting some quite high-profile coverage. It comes up on my Bloomberg feed for AAPL for example. I know their job is to produce news, but this filing is causing quite a stir.

 

[aristobrat]

That's what I said: "... and it won't apply to everyone..."

However, this is precisely why people launch class action suits; to bolster their case with the strength of a collective rather than try to sue with their own individual, possibly weak case.

I know what you said. I personally just think it's absolutely ridiculous that it doesn't apply to the person bringing the case.

Knowledge of defect is not a defense to breach of warranty. You are selling a product that carries with it an implied promise that it does not have defective parts. You breach it every time you make a sale, whether or not the consumer can return it.

While that makes legal sense, it really makes me mad that it can be used as a way to dismiss the obvious common sense method for handling this issue.

If the defect is blatant from day#1, there is ample time to return the product, and there are no damages incurred for returning the product, it shouldn't require a lawsuit, especially when the lawsuit isn't likely to end in a manner that helps anyone else other than Ms. Smith and her lawyers.

 

[ratbatblue]

I didn't go through every entry in the thread, but I read the first 3 pages this morning and the last page just now, and I feel compelled to answer the comments to the effect of "Why didn't people with dropped calls return the phone within the initial 30 days".

I only have reception and dropped calls/data connection problems when trying to use 3G. Edge on the iPhone works no worse than any other cell phone FOR ME. Probably better than some phones I've owned. I kept the phone over 30 days hoping that WHOEVER was determined to be causing the issues would own up to it and fix it. Looks like progress in that direction is being made, sloowwly. I had a feeling all along that it might take the threat of a lawsuit to get movement in certain circles. More seems to be accomplished in many cases by the mere threat of litigation than the act itself. I don't want to see Apple or AT&T get sued. I want them to fix the problems with 3G reception so I can fully enjoy the iPhone as it was meant to be used.

 

[tlapple]

If the defect is blatant from day#1, there is ample time to return the product, and there are no damages incurred for returning the product, it shouldn't require a lawsuit, especially when the lawsuit isn't likely to end in a manner that helps anyone else other than Ms. Smith and her lawyers.

I agree with you there. But I will tell you that sometimes it really does take a lawsuit to get a company to fix an issue and take responsibility. I, for one, think that the quality of a product should not be justified by a return policy.

In the end, I couldn't care less if she wins or not, or if it even goes to trial. But I do think it was definitely time that Apple was forced to face this issue head-on. Given the popularity and # of iphones Apple was selling, they were silent and finger-pointing for too long, which got a lot of people angry and almost invited this lawsuit. If they would have done better if they just told people much earlier than they did, that they knew of the issue and were working on it. Not saying this warranted them being sued, but definitely didn't help.

 

[aristobrat]

Given the popularity and # of iphones Apple was selling, they were silent and finger-pointing for too long, which got a lot of people angry and almost invited this lawsuit. If they would have done better if they just told people much earlier than they did, that they knew of the issue and were working on it. Not saying this warranted them being sued, but definitely didn't help.

I agree with you on that.

Why Apple stays so quiet about issues that they're actively working on makes no sense to me. I'd think that their PR machine could give updates in a way that generates even more love and hype for them.

Having said that, there's a pattern where after anytime an Apple issue hits the tech blogs, you can count the hours until the lawsuit is filed. This has been going on for years and years and doesn't seem to be influencing Apple to change their 'quiet ways'.

 

[xoph3]

In the end, I couldn't care less if she wins or not, or if it even goes to trial. But I do think it was definitely time that Apple was forced to face this issue head-on. Given the popularity and # of iphones Apple was selling, they were silent and finger-pointing for too long, which got a lot of people angry and almost invited this lawsuit. If they would have done better if they just told people much earlier than they did, that they knew of the issue and were working on it. Not saying this warranted them being sued, but definitely didn't help.

Amen.

 

[wreckshop]

my actualy point here is not to argue what is causing the dropped calls, i was just simply saying that there is no real basis for a lawsuit. The fact that you have a return policy or a chance to wait until the issue is fixed is enough of a reason to not have one. On top of the fact that the phone is capabable of doing what it says it can, it jsut can not do it for everything, which again, is where the return policy comes into play.

Do some research on cellphone coverage law suits, not ONE ever made it into court, whether it was based from the carrier of the phone. the chances of this making it into court is insanely slim to none, and if it does, i doubt anyone will win anything.

Why are you defending Apple? If the case has merit then apple will be forced to work on a fix ASAP. If not then it gets thrown out. If this lawsuit wasn't made, who knows how long it would take (if ever) apple would fix the problem?

Look at MS and how it handled the xbox 360 fiasco. It was over a year before they admitted that xbox 360 had a serious design defect. Eventually MS extended the warranty to 3 years, but that was a preemptive strike against a class action lawsuit.

 

[bluenoise]

Why are you defending Apple? If the case has merit then apple will be forced to work on a fix ASAP. If not then it gets thrown out. If this lawsuit wasn't made, who knows how long it would take (if ever) apple would fix the problem?

Look at MS and how it handled the xbox 360 fiasco. It was over a year before they admitted that xbox 360 had a serious design defect. Eventually MS extended the warranty to 3 years, but that was a preemptive strike against a class action lawsuit.

I think it's less about defending Apple and more about pointing out the lawsuit's flaws. We'd all like to see Apple make things better and there have certainly been indications that they are working hard to do so. But the woman filing this suit appears to have been having an issue with her phone from the start and she didn't just return it.

I understand some people didn't find issues with their phones until the 30 days expired, but it seems to me a warranty should cover defects beyond that period. I don't think this lawsuit was necessary to get Apple off their butts as it's clear they were already doing what they can to fix the issues.

 

[mciarlo]

What I don't get is why "a lot of ppl" didn't return the stupid phone during the 30 day return window (that's setup precisely for people to test the network and phone at any location they want to see if it meets their needs) when they figured that phone and/or network didn't meet their needs?

If this lawsuit plays out like 99% of the other Apple ones, it will end with an out-of-court settlement that will do jack squat for the 'lot of ppl'.

IMO, the issue is that 'a lot of ppl' love the other functions of the iPhone so much that they're unwilling to return the device even though it doesn't work for them as it should (i.e. as a phone). Now they're frustrated and want a magical fix to make the device work, and since they aren't able to 'have their cake and eat it too', they'll try to make this a legal issue in order to make that 'magical fix' happen sooner.

Because I was expecting things to get better with software updates. Thus far I am disappointed. In the meantime, I'm paying money for a phone that, IMHO, is nothing more than a shiny battery drainer.

 

[bigmouth]

I have mixed feelings about this lawsuit myself, but some of you are oversimplifying things rather ridiculously.

The best (or worst) example is the constant refrain that dissatisfied customers should simply return their phones. Will Apple compensate you for the hours you waited in line to buy the phone? The time it takes for you to return the product? Your inconvenience at having to go without a phone after said return? Your early termination fee (and subsequent reactivation fee) if you changed carriers to buy the iPhone? Get real -- there are many hidden costs here you aren't considering.

Also, spare me this talk about how all advertising exaggerates. There is a difference between mere puffery like "best product ever" and objectively quantifiable claims like "twice as fast."

 

[bluenoise]

I have mixed feelings about this lawsuit myself, but some of you are oversimplifying things rather ridiculously.

The best (or worst) example is the constant refrain that dissatisfied customers should simply return their phones. Will Apple compensate you for the hours you waited in line to buy the phone? The time it takes for you to return the product? Your inconvenience at having to go without a phone after said return? Your early termination fee (and subsequent reactivation fee) if you changed carriers to buy the iPhone? Get real -- there are many hidden costs here you aren't considering.

Also, spare me this talk about how all advertising exaggerates. There is a difference between mere puffery like "best product ever" and objectively quantifiable claims like "twice as fast."

• Hours waiting in line: Your choice to do that, Apple didn't force you to get one in the first few weeks of its arrival.
• Returning the product: That's a hassle for sure, but I don't know of any companies or businesses that would compensate you for that. Some offer to pay return shipping, so that may be a close example.
• Your inconvenience. Sounds the same as the 'returning the product' issue.
• Early termination fee: Your choice to break contract with your previous carrier. Why should Apple compensate you for that?
• Activation fee: AT&T should refund that if you're not satisfied with the performance of the phone/network combination.

My data speed is twice as fast. More than twice, in fact. I don't see how anyone can say that claim is false.

I, too, wish the 3G performance was better/more robust. But, I don't drop calls and things pretty much work as advertised for me. While I sympathize with people having more problems than me, I also disagree with the notion or implication that all or most iPhone 3Gs are failures.