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Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More

SocialKonstruct said:
There are a few...
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WOW - that person must either play games that are not really needing power - or is not competitive - because even the most powerful Mac Pro's can't game well compared to their PC counterparts - but I guess anythings possible. But I doubt thats a market Apple cares about. To me - this ARM transition is going to be small blip on the radar for most people - because all they need their computer to do is email, web browsing, and basic office applications - and all of those are likely gonna work. MacRumors members are not the normal Mac user and I would bet, less than 5% of the overall market Apple is serving.
 
aramelus said:
FP should not be used in engineering tools? What kind of engineering tools are you thinking about? Because performance hit of custom data types which are more precise are often severe.
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With 64 bits, you can generally represent the full range of precision for most types of engineering just using long ints.

FP, particularly Intel’s 80-bit FP, is VERY imprecise.

I wrote lots of electronic design automation tools and never once used floating point representation - clock buffer insertion, static timing analyzers, power estimation, place and route, static circuit classification, circuit partitioning, visualization, etc.
 
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convergent said:
My daughter is a UX designer and in her company all the designers use Windows, though she personally has a Mac. She's using the Adobe suite, so that is platform independent. Personally, I'm a Project Manager and Microsoft Project is table stakes for a PM. It has always been the one app that I have to run in virtualization.
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That's cool. Again, I'm only speaking from my own experience. The original comment I was responding to was that "Apple lost the pro market some time ago", which is an exaggeration at best. There are obviously designers, devs, etc that use Windows software or use Windows exclusively, I'm not suggesting that those people don't exist. I'm just saying that there are plenty of pros out there that don't rely on Bootcamp or Windows software for their job.

convergent said:
It just seems that everyone is ignoring this elephant in the room... how will you run a Windows only app on an Apple Silicon Mac.
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I'm not ignoring that at all. I just haven't come across a single piece of software that I need to run Windows for and has no 'good enough' alternative for on Mac. I acknowledge that they exist and for some pro users they're a must, but I think the number of pros who NEED to run Windows software is more of a vocal minority than they might like to admit.

Would it be great to still have the option to do it? Sure, I'm always for more functionality over less. But is it going to kill Macs in the pro world? No. In some industries or roles it will, but it's not the bullet in the head that people are making it out to be.
 
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AxiomaticRubric said:
You do know there is Visual Studio for Mac, right?
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There are two things called Visual Studio on the Mac.

Visual Studio for Mac is Xamarin Studio with the serial numbers filed off - last time I looked it could only do C# and scripting languages.

Visual Studio Code is an IDE built on browser tech (Electron) - it is very good, especially for Javascript/Typescript plus a good college try at most common languages, but it's not Visual Studio.

Still - if I need to do any substantial work on a PC, I'll get a PC. Even with Intel Macs.

SocialKonstruct said:
Same here. As an artist and computer geek I don't want to relinquish control of my laptop/desktop to Apple. What happen if Apple decided to block all third party application installs one day?
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That facility has been in Mac OS Intel for years but there is a checkbox in system setting that lets the admin user turn it on and off.

Apple could change their mind about that whenever they wanted - and once all the Intel Macs have T2 chips (which will probably be long before they completely drop Intel) it could be strictly enforced.
 
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I'm guessing not, but can someone with the technical know-how confirm if VMWare would be unable to run my old virtual installation of High Sierra?
 
Chompineer said:
Download throttlestoo and control this yourself?

Not really Apple's job to hold your hand on someone else's operating system.
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Intel as dropped support for throttlestop. It's no longer possible to undervolt an Intel cpu after the last firmware.
 
boss.king said:
I'm not ignoring that at all. I just haven't come across a single piece of software that I need to run Windows for and has no 'good enough' alternative for on Mac. I acknowledge that they exist and for some pro users they're a must, but I think the number of pros who NEED to run Windows software is more of a vocal minority than they might like to admit.
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I won't call us a vocal minority: the majority of people I know need to run some sort of Windows app on their Mac. It's only 1 o 2 apps at most, but we must do it. Plus, the category of developers (which is not a small category) also needs to run Windows to at least check their products on that environment. We'll absolutely need some sort of emulator to run Windows.
 
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whyamihere said:
I'm guessing not, but can someone with the technical know-how confirm if VMWare would be unable to run my old virtual installation of High Sierra?
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It will not run due to Arch mismatch.

You can only run ARM64 OS VM on a ARM Mac. So technically you can only run Big Sur or later in VM.

And BTW Apple demonstrated Parallels not VMware and we do not know if VMware is interested in ARM VMs on Mac or not.
 
Aries79 said:
I won't call us a vocal minority: the majority of people I know need to run some sort of Windows app on their Mac. It's only 1 o 2 apps at most, but we must do it. Plus, the category of developers (which is not a small category) also needs to run Windows to at least check their products on that environment. We'll absolutely need some sort of emulator to run Windows.
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That argument goes both ways, doesn't it? Surely you'd also need a Mac to check your products in that environment? So is Windows also dead to the pro market?
 
Aries79 said:
I won't call us a vocal minority: the majority of people I know need to run some sort of Windows app on their Mac. It's only 1 o 2 apps at most, but we must do it. Plus, the category of developers (which is not a small category) also needs to run Windows to at least check their products on that environment. We'll absolutely need some sort of emulator to run Windows.
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You do not need emulation as Windows 10 ARM could run in VM on ARM.
You got the same Edge browser x86 Windows came with and that's good enough for web frontend testing.

If you building native software on windows then you already have a windows machine just use that for testing.
 
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cmaier said:
Sure, but they demonstrated Rosetta running x86 based games.
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What they did not told you is that this 8 seconds footage took 3 days to shoot because the game kept crashing and crashing. Maybe not. Fingers crossed.
 
cmaier said:
On an Arm mac? It cannot. Not unless they come up with completely new software with a built in emulation engine.
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MikeZTM said:
It will not run due to Arch mismatch.

You can only run ARM64 OS VM on a ARM Mac. So technically you can only run Big Sur or later in VM.

And BTW Apple demonstrated Parallels not VMware and we do not know if VMware is interested in ARM VMs on Mac or not.
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Darn. I had my hopes up since they've been running Macs internally on ARM for years now, they surely must have at some point ran High Sierra on ARM too. Thought maybe it would be compatible.
 
In Steve Jobs own words.

"If the market tells us we are making the wrong choices we listen to the market. We are just people running this company. We're trying to make great products for people. And so we have at least the courtage of our convictions to say we dont think this is part of what makes a great product and we're gonna leave it out. Some people are not gonna like that, and they're gonna call us names, and it's not going to be in certain companies vested interests to do that.


But we are gonna take the heat cause we wanna make the best product for customers...you know what, they are paying us to make those choices, thats what a lot of customers are paying us to do...And if we succeed they'll buy them, and if we don't they won't! And it will all work itself out!"



 
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My 5c of optimism: OK, imagine totally no Boot Camp support in ARM flavour from Apple. But then imagine user is still able to allow ARM Mac bootloader to load Windows 10 for ARM. Then I'm confident, sooner or later a new 'ARM Camp' will arise. What I mean: people can write the missing drivers... As for me, I would actively join such project, being drivers coder (some of my drv stuff is at http://forbootcamp.org/). Trust me, there are many more geeks who could join efforts and make this happen. If people had created Linux kernel mostly for fun, then definitely there are people who could as well write a set of Windows drivers for ARM architecture, also just for fun. Locked bootloader (if truly locked) is so far my biggest concern. Anyways, we can't wait to get an ARM Mac in order to start these evil experiments 🤓
 
Until now I used to use Dragon Professional & Medical under Parallels - is there a real and working equivalent on OSX ?
 
cmaier said:
With 64 bits, you can generally represent the full range of precision for most types of engineering just using long ints.

FP, particularly Intel’s 80-bit FP, is VERY imprecise.

I wrote lots of electronic design automation tools and never once used floating point representation - clock buffer insertion, static timing analyzers, power estimation, place and route, static circuit classification, circuit partitioning, visualization, etc.
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Well here I have to disagree. Floating Point is not more imprecise than long ints it just depends on the range of values you want to represent and what kind of precision you need. It is both 64 bit values so number of you can represent is nearly the same (except some reserved FP special values).

Especially if you go into the more analog world like rf design or more general mathematics floating points are very important. But also in circuit design if you look currents and voltages and start to solve equation systems you really want floating point arithmetics. No offence but you seem to be a more digital guy ;)

But more on topic did any of the tools you use run natively on MacOS? Matlab seems to be the only tool in this domain, which is available as native Mac application. All EDA vendors seem to go the x86 Linux route and therefore won't run on ARM MacOs. I know some analog designers which used Vituoso in virtual machines on macs
 
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