Dashboard Exposed

[wnurse]

Then let's close the patent office

Thanks for proving the point.

Correct: nothing is truly "new". Any "new" thing will have bits and pieces of "old" things. That is precisely the point.

As konfabulator did not spring forth from Zeus's mind fully formed, neither did Dashboard. Of course there are similarities with existing products. However, from what I've seen of Dashboard, the fraction which is similar to Konfabulator is minimal, and, for the most part, just as similar to previous efforts by Apple, Microsoft, and others. The most striking similarity is in the gaudy look of the widgets, frankly. And that's also the most likely feature of Dashboard to be overhauled before Tiger's release.

Using your logic, why innovate? Why apply for patents. I say patents are a waste of time since everything has been invented that needs to be. A car for example, is a copy of a bicycle. I mean, according to your logic, this would be true because a bicycle gets you from point A to B, sure a car does it faster but so what? and by your logic, a plane is merely a copy of a car, only thing it does it gets you from point A to B faster. Your logic are a little on the silly side.

Whether something could be done before is not the issue. The issue is whether the implementation has been done before. IE, man has always been able to tell time but when the clock was invented, it was the first time he was able to tell time without looking at the sky or the stars, etc. An application can be functionally doing something that has been done before and yet be new because it implements it actions in a new way. Unfortunately for Konfabulator and dashboard, this has been done before by stardock. So apple saying "Redmond, start your photocopiers" does not really wash. My argument with you is not that Konfabulator is not new (it isn't), my argument with you is your logic. It's ok to defend apple, just do it without the blinders on. Makes your logic much clearer.

 

[1macker1]

**cough** ripoff of konfab **cough**and looking glass**cough**

 

[robbieduncan]

Ok, I've made an idiot of myself.

Sorry

Anyway, by the time Tiger is released, Konfabulator will be much better. Konfabulator has a head-start of Dashboard.

P.S: I'm really sorry about my mistake

Everyone makes mistakes! Lighten up

 

[Jalexster]

I'm starting to loose faith in Apple. Spotlight for example seems a bit similar to the searching features in Longhorn. Not that I'm saying that Apple dosen't have the right to rip off microsoft, they do, but Apple is becoming less-inovative nowdays.

It's worrying.
(And I will lighten up)

 

[cionheart]

I like the idea of Dashboard: I work in my normal environment, then somthing happens, say I want to stop iTunes, make a short note or look up an adress. So all I have to do is press a key and there it is! I think Apple wants to differ between normal work and short every day tasks, that's what Dashboard is for. I will love it (hope so ).

No word about Konfabulator - it's going to be a discussion without end.

 

[robbieduncan]

I'm starting to loose faith in Apple. Spotlight for example seems a bit similar to the searching features in Longhorn. Not that I'm saying that Apple dosen't have the right to rip off microsoft, they do, but Apple is becoming less-inovative nowdays.

It's worrying.
(And I will lighten up)

Sort of. I've not seem the smart folders idea anywhere but on Mac OSX though. Core Image/Video look like they will be really great too.

 

[silvergunuk]

Just A Thought

After watching these 2 short clips, I think theres waaaay more to Tiger than meets the eye. I have a feeling this core image and video will become a main part of Tigers user interface. Imagine when you have other applications in the background, they could just ripple away in the background using the glass, liquid and transparency filters. You can then just animate the filters transition back to normal when you bring the application or folders to the front. This would look far better than what Longhorn is offering. On another note then I saw those stickies rotate 180 degrees like Suns looking glass OS, it seems apple has incorporated 3D into this technology. I maybe wrong but I think macworld will show a whole new side to Tiger.

 

[age234]

Ugh! Think about this for a minute, guys!

First off, the flip-to-settings (FTS) "feature" is not consistent with the Apple standard method of adjusting settings, so we have diminished usability due to lack of consistency.

Also, and this is the big negative, how much of a pain is it to make a change in the settings, then have to flip the window over to see what the change looks like, flip it back, modify the change, flip it back, etc. etc.

A very bad direction.

I don't know, I think it's cool. Plus, these are widgets, with a small amount of functionality. I think this will stay a widget thing. But, then again, it *would* be cool to be flipping windows over to see the preferences. But I'm sure it'd get annoying after a while.

 

[sinisterdesign]

Seriously, a clock? Calendar? Calculator? Konfabulator created these things? Last time I checked, Apple put them on the desktop back in '84. Just because they made them more accessible and added some java-nonsense doesn't mean Apple ripped it off. In fact, it's the other way around.

// narco

riiiiiggghhht. just b/c they're small, floating, customizable, apps called "WIDGETS", i'm sure it's a total coincidence.

don't get me wrong, i LOVE apple, used to work for them, but in some respects they're no better than M$ when it comes to seeing a good idea & swiping it. at least M$ PAYS (or acquires) the companies.

was konfabulator the first to put a clock on the desktop? even a floating one? no, of course not. the Clock was one of the only functional apps in OS10.0. did they take that concept, put a lot of work & creativity (and excellent design, btw) into perfecting the widget? i think so. i downloaded konfabulator a month or so ago & really enjoyed it. i feel sure someone in cupertino did too, steve ended up seeing it & said "i want that. get going"

apple comes up w/ some great concepts, but they certainly lift some good ideas from the developer community. short of acquiring these companies, apple would never be able to compensate them for swiping an idea b/c everyone & their brother would be lined up out the door w/ hands out saying apple stole their widget. but who on this board has, in recent times, downloaded such great little apps as: Audion, Dragstrip or Suitcase after apple gave us iTunes, OSX's Dock and Font Book?

again, i love apple, but it would be tough to be an apple reseller or developer. at least M$ buys you a nice dinner before they screw you.

 

[MhzDoesMatter]

Just so we're keeping track

1. The widgets themselves are common place?

2. Konfab uses Apple APIs ?

3. Apple has previously had OS software perform the relatively same function?

4. Konfab was not Open Source, it was unpatented shareware.

5. Konfab's author knew about this before hand (he was commenting way before release and had already altered Konfab to remain a semblance of competitiveness,) meaning he was probably contacted.

So basically...get over it? Why are people being emotional and moral about all of this? Yeah Apple v Microsoft and history of innovation and hypocrisy blah blah blah. Apple is about money. They are a business. And they should employ whatever practices will continue to make them money in both the short and long runs.
And this was not the straw that will break the camel's back. I mean, they only do this once every other OS Revision. So if you are a good developer with a great shareware app just expect it only to have a two year life and be prepared for it to "win" the lottery and end up co-opted. It's really no different than expiring patents for any other invention. After you get a little time to make your money, we're coming to eat your lunch.
Just because Apple likes to play around with their history of being ripped off, you don't see Steve ranting every keynote. No, he touts Office 2004. He has dinner with Bill Gates. He got over it. It's business and its cut throat. That doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate his developer base. Thats why he keeps giving them tools to make better apps. Like Microsoft investing in Apple. This is why they think we're all tree hugging hippie's still. (That, and that and the unfortunate incident with "flower power"...) Geez, go wet yourselves in your own blogs or something.


-Truth Hertz

 

[dongmin]

I'm starting to loose faith in Apple. Spotlight for example seems a bit similar to the searching features in Longhorn. Not that I'm saying that Apple dosen't have the right to rip off microsoft, they do, but Apple is becoming less-inovative nowdays.

It's worrying.
(And I will lighten up)

Spotlight is based on the search tool used in iTunes, according to Apple. That 'idea' was around long before Longhorn came into being. For sure, before MS demoed it.

 

[30jan-1972]

Some thoughts

This whining is really reaching a fever pitch and I thought I'd chime in as well.

Konfabulator is an application that is written by ex-Apple employees that cobbles together assorted technologies and allows developers an easy means of writing throw-away mini-apps.

Here are some facts:
1) Konfabulator did NOT invent the idea of such mini-apps. They have been around the Mac since the pre-MultiFinder era. They were called desk accessories. They have existed at various levels and in various forms ever since. So much for stealing that idea.

2) Konfabulator did NOT invent the idea of providing an interpretive layer between the System and an easier to use scripting language for the development of mini-apps. HyperCard came first on the Mac. Then AppleScript. So much for some original ideas there.

3) Konfabulator did NOT invent the word widgets. This term has been around for a long time and has been used to refer specifically to mini-apps as well. So much for changing the English language.

What did Konfabulator do? They COPIED ideas #1 and #2 and chose Javascript as their developer language and then applied word #3 to the result. The only originality that can legitimately be argued for is the use of Javascript, however even that falls apart at a closer look.

4) The Javascript access that Konfabulator provides are an extension of existing OS X APIs. Other MacOS X technologies provide a means to use Javascript to write mini-apps - see AppleScript for just one example. Other technologies on other systems have done this as well. Konfabulator merely did the same thing that others have long been working on.

The only claim to innovation (#4) is dubious at best. Which then brings us to why they won't get a penny from Apple.

5) Despite the best efforts of the BSA and its cronies, the copyright or patent of ideas is still not possible. Period. Get this through your heads. Konfabulator essentially has two options:

5A) Original art. They could claim their idea to be original art and therefore protected. However, as #1, #2, #3 even #4 clearly point out, they were not first and first is what matters in this arguement.

5B) Defensive patent. They could file a patent on their IMPLEMENTATION of the idea. When Apple fought the patent they could argue they were first so they should be granted the patent. However, again originality and who truly came first matter. And again, as #1-4 point out, Knofabulator doesn't have a lot of ground here.

6) Apple's legal team undoubtedly studied these issues at length and is confident they are in the RIGHT or they would not have done it this way to begin with. The weight of their expertise and knowledge in this area outwieghs anyone here, including me.

As an aside we also have to remember:

7) The Konfab guys are ex-Apple types. This is a huge can of worms - and all bad for Konfab. Just use a little imagination. Arlo worked on the Copland UI team - were widgets or desk accessories with an interpretive scripting layer ever discussed? Does Apple have the original memos/work product to show that? Maybe the Konfab guys should worry more about that line of reasoning than anything else, because any idiot can see that line of counter-suit.

The interesting thing from my perspective is the outrage. People here have clamored for things like iTunes improvements, OS theming, etc. etc. All of which have already or would in the future, squashed smaller devs. But now the pet favorite of a few fan boys gets hit and the tears are flowing.

My hypothesis:
8) People are pissed because they see themselves in Konfabulator. Scene fades into dream sequence....

A small-time software dev (aka "the little guy", "our hero") without original thought writes a stop-gap app for the Mac.

Though the app copies heavily from earlier OS-work from Apple, our hero believes that they've cornered the market.

Dozens of even smaller-time devs use his app to write their own "Gadgets." These hopeless fools shell out $30 not realizing that the same functionatity is right their on their freshly installed dev CD. Our hero laughs all the way to the bank.

The smaller-time devs dream big, that maybe one day there will be an iTMS for Gadgets and they will get rich having written the 500th calendar for the Mac. They know theirs will succeed however because they used a super secret font that will drive users wild with desire to purchase their calendar for $20. Never mind the free alternatives out their.

One day the dream ends. The OS matures and in its growth it logically expands to consume our hero's work. Unfortunately for our hero it hopelessly squashes him.

The OS includes Waterline, a drag and drop means to automate tasks and interface with existing apps and services. It includes MoronScript, an easy to use standards based scripting system that can fully access any core OS function. It includes Windshield a visually appealing and simple means of bringing everything together.

Our hero is sad, but realizes he scammed hopeless dozens out of $30. He moves on to writing RealBasic plug-ins.

The smaller-time devs burn with anger. Their dreams of greatness are smashed. They realize that IF THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY WRITING SOFTWARE THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN TO PROGRAM. Eeeek.

Realizing that their anime fetish and community college education won't allow that...they turn to an online forum to whine about the evil of the world.

Oh well, at least they can hope for a G5 iMac for $500. Can't they?

--

Boo freaking hoo.

30 Jan. 1972

 

[Jalexster]

I meant Longhorn's dynamic folders, in terms of Spotlight being similar to Longhorn.
Longhorn has music, document, image, video and game folders, that have all the relative content stored in them, no matter where the actual files are in the folder-structure.

Spotlight's searching, and smart folders are very similar to Longhorn's system. I know that iTunes had those features first, but that was music only. The branching into the file-structure was done by Longhorn first.

Also, Apple is even ripping off Looking Glass in a way. They are running out of ideas. We know they can do better, rather than just ripping off other's ideas.

And, about Dashboard ripping off Konfabulator:
Konfabulator was not the first of it's kind to do what it did, but it was different, with well-implemented tranparencies, customization, etc... And now Apple has introduced a system that is VERY similar to Konfabulator.

 

[30jan-1972]

I meant Longhorn's dynamic folders, in terms of Spotlight being similar to Longhorn.
Longhorn has music, document, image, video and game folders, that have all the relative content stored in them, no matter where the actual files are in the folder-structure.

Also, Apple is even ripping off Looking Glass in a way. They are running out of ideas. We know they can do better, rather than just ripping off other's ideas.

Longhorn does not exist. Call me in 2010 when it's released and we'll have this discussion.

Looking Glass does not exist. Call me on the third of never when that one gets out there to anyone beyond comic book collectors.

Boo freaking hoo.

30 Jan. 1972

 

[1macker1]

Both Longhorn and Looking glass to exist. You just dont have it yet.

Longhorn does not exist. Call me in 2010 when it's released and we'll have this discussion.

Looking Glass does not exist. Call me on the third of never when that one gets out there to anyone beyond comic book collectors.

Boo freaking hoo.

30 Jan. 1972

 

[johngordon]

I don't think the ripple effect is useless.

Those widgets, despite how they look on a tiny screen, aren't big. When you open most apps, you have two visual indications: the menu bar changes, and the main window of the app (usually) pops up.

Neither of these things is true for widgets. They pop up, somewhere on your screen (wherever it was you last closed them from and/or wherever there is space for them to pop up). The ripple effect gives visual indication that (1) yes, you really did click on that widget's name, and (2) here's where the widget went.

IMHO, what this is a perfect example of is people dissing eye candy without having tried the thing out ... the eye candy is there for a reason.

agree completely - when i first saw expose, i just thought *so - a way to jump between apps that looks a bit flash. yes...and?*, but once i actually used it i thought *hey - pretty useful actually.*

in the same way these widget things and might well be too, and if you're going to have an effect that distinguishes them from other apps, then why not have a nice one?

not sure about the general look and feel of them tho' - they look a bit inconsistant and garish (i've only seen the pics, not the videos) to be honest, and lacked apple's usual elegant design.

also not sure what all the fuss is about the konfab thing - sure there are presumabnly similarities, but at the end of the day their just introcing quick easy access to existing features - and that folklore article showed their original roots.

Iain

 

[adamfilip]

i really think apple should update its keyboards with specialized expoze keys. regardless of where i reprogram my keys they always get in the way of shortcuts to apps i use

 

[dongmin]

Ugh! Think about this for a minute, guys!

First off, the flip-to-settings (FTS) "feature" is not consistent with the Apple standard method of adjusting settings, so we have diminished usability due to lack of consistency.

It's not 'consistent' because it's not supposed to be; these widgets are not your standard apps. They are self-contained little doohickeys that exist outside the dock, menu, and desktop. I personally think the flip-to-settings is genius (yes, I know it's a rippoff on a Sun idea) for precisely the reasons you don't like them: everything is self-contained so you don't need to bother with menus or going to preferences to change the settings. More efficient in my opinion.

Also, and this is the big negative, how much of a pain is it to make a change in the settings, then have to flip the window over to see what the change looks like, flip it back, modify the change, flip it back, etc. etc.

A very bad direction.

I agree with you on this, although I think the act of flipping back and forth is as efficient as going to the menu and switching settings. Perhaps the use of control-click (right-click) could be implemented as a shortcut.

 

[iChan]

Sweet, Gotta love the uneccessary Eye Candy.

Edit: Is any eye candy neccessary?

Just improve the speed of the OS, I really don't care for eye candy past the 10 minute WOW factor.

WOW factor creates teh WOM factor. (word of mouth) eye candy is needed so we can say to our Windows colleagues.. "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!!"

 

[iChan]

Why?

It's blatantly obvious that Apple got the idea from Konfabulator. Sure, it appears that Apple is doing some things in the eye candy department to improve upon it... but it's still just a fancy version of Konfabulator.

do a bit of research and you will see that Konfab is a reimplementation of an old (apple!) idea.

 

[ndanimal]

Holy crapple, what is all this madness? Suddenly its the cool thing on here to shout about how Big Bad Apple is totally stomping on the little guy.

I've seen several posts about how apple used to INNOVATE and now they're just theiving savages like Microsoft...c'mon, do you REALLY think that every single good idea ever implemented in an Apple OS originated within the company? The key is taking good ideas and polishing them, integrating them into a usable whole.

So someone else came up with the idea first (maybe). If apple can do it better, why shouldn't they?

 

[iChan]

Flipping Sticky - a little version of the "Looking Glass" feature we've been discussing here recently.

i was thinking the same thing... which makes you think, why do they (sun) need java to do something like that? wouldn't it be much cheaper to do it in C and send it to the GPU for processing?

 

[iChan]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I'll really have any use for these "widgets" that float in some strange "layer" on top of my desktop. Hopefully, Apple will prove me wrong, but since I have no basis for comparison (I have never used konfabulator) I am skeptical for now.

The eye candy does indeed look nice, don't get me wrong (especially that ripple effect) I just hope that form is not getting ahead of function here.

- reaper

you state you have never used Konfab before... besically, it's tagline is : "It's anything you want it to be."

so, if on dashboard, there is something it doesn't do, make it yourself?!? (that is if they include the DB SDK with Tiger, however, it might not be needed as the widgets are all written in javascript)

 

[iChan]

From the small demo I have seen the Dashboard appears to have the one feature that keeps me from using Konfabulator. It appears that it will be connected to Expose and have its own key so that if I press said key I will suddenly see all of my "widgets" and choose the one that I want to work with. Currently the only way to do this with Konfabulator is to attach the widgets to the desktop and press F11. The problem with this is that you can not see the stuff under the widgets at that point.

The Dashboard solution appears to solve all of these problems.

One last thing, the widgets that are the actual parts of Konfabulator that the user uses are made by third parties that may or may not support and update them. With Dashboard we will have Apple supported widgets that will continue to work.

Frank

there is a actually a new version of konfab out, 1.7, that has a new feature called "konposé" (geez, i wonder how they came up with name) that lets you see all your widgets by pressing a hotkey.

 

[iChan]

amen on the resource hog post for konfabulator. From the video that I watched, this looks to be a part of expose that I could really use. I didn't buy konfabulator because of the widgets taking up so much screen space. This may just be what I want so I can pull them up whenever I want them

i agree... resource hog!

however, you can leave all your widgets on the desktop and use enposé to see them...
and the konfab developers also released a bunch of "mini" widgets...

it was promised that there would be one every thursday, but that never happened...

i think konfab should concentrate on upgrading the engine... with the coreimage SDK, they can hopefully harness the power and update konfab to allow users to resize the widgets to whatever size they want...

just like with icons... no degradation!

does anyone know if the dashboard widgets are PNG or vector based?