yellow said:I am an IT person and I definitely know what I am doing.
Well, duh I think we all know that
I too am an IT guy, but don't often show it off
My iBook surrounded by racks full of Dull servers.
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Dells are really so insanely cheap.
- Thread starter generik
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Well, duh I think we all know that
I too am an IT guy, but don't often show it off
My iBook surrounded by racks full of Dull servers.
generik said:
The date on the quote was 9/18/06 - I have an even newer one for you. In fact, I DID buy 3 of these. They are for use on constructions sites where they get hammered pretty quick (even faster than their normal breakdown time). I spend an average of $250,000 a year on hardware. I do this all the time. And, I do not get the hard quote until I have worked the options myself. Go get your own quote showing the bottomline and make sure it has a rep and quote number for verification. I would love to buy at your price.
dpaanlka said:
In addition, I dont know about all the DELL SUPPORTERS on this forum but for someone like me, I use both Windows and Macs since I "need" the windows desktop for gaming, Windows machines cost a BOMB to maintain. Unless ofcourse you are using pirated software but that is out of the question as we need to compare things legally...For example on my Windows machine, it would be absolutely useless wihtout buying certain sofware such as:
VIRUS PROTECTION 40-100US plus subscription fee
Malware, Spyware
Defragging software to keep it smooth
Back up software
So if you buy these softwares, windows machines dont come so cheap.
Where as if you have a mac, it comes with iLife so that deals with any multimedia needs and u dun need to buy extra crap it all works out of the box if you know what i mean.
I dont want to argue here that Apples are cheaper or anything, I just want to shed some light on the fact that Windows machines are not so CHEAP to maintain these days.
ChickenSwartz said:
What chip is dell using that has DOUBLE the power of what's in the MBP? I don't think such a thing exists.
generik said:
So why can't you answer the question? Why don't you just buy a dell? You don't see the value of a mac, so don't get one.
For me, it's worth paying a little more just to be able to run osx and apps that only run on osx.
generik said:
That puts me at $852. That's more like within 25% of a macbook, not half or quarter the price. And that's with a 1.66 chip, probably about the same as the 1.8 core duo in the MB.
milozauckerman said:
I have to know...are you kidding? You don't see any value in a *portable* unit being smaller and lighter?
The original poster does have a point: Dells are cheaper. For example, the closest equivalent I could find to my MacBook on the US Dell.com is the Inspiron 1405 "multimedia" computer. With a Core 2 Duo, Windows Media Center, 60GB drive, 1 GB memory, and a DVD burner, all for $939. So this is $160 less than my Macbook which only ships with a regular Core Duo, 512 MB memory, and a combo drive instead of a DVD burner.
So assuming putting in a Core 2 Duo is about $100 (that's what the option costs on the Dell site), a DVD burner about $50, and addional 512 MB RAM about $50, you're still talking at least $300 difference if you could build a MacBook and a 1405 with the same parts.
So yes, Dells are cheaper...but...I would argue that my MacBook with OS X *is* worth the significan price difference!!
I bought a "multimedia" HP laptop earlier this year and I ended up selling it within a few months. I was happy with my purchase for about the first 2 *weeks*, but then random quirks just started appearing. And I don't think it's spyware or viruses (though having to worry about those is bad enough), I think it's just that Windows sucks! If you're an advanced user and are installing/uninstalling software all the time (I'm a computer programmer and have experience with MANY versions of Windows, Unix, Linux, and Mac OS), you're just bound to get errors like "could not find DLL" or crap like that. The worst are the ones where it seems some artifact or inconsistency was left on your system and nothing short of a clean OS reinstall seems to fix it.
...so to make a long story short, I in fact reformat my hard drive and do a clean install of Windows XP on my HP - so I could sell it! Sold it for hundreds less than I had purchased it less than 3 months earlier, but I used the money to buy a MacBook and I've been happy ever since. I've had my MacBook for I guess close to 6 months now, with NO problems whatsoever, beyond the quirks of trying to get my Mac to work in a Windows world (so for example WMV files wouldn't really play on my Mac until Flip4Mac finally released a Universal Binary version of their WMV Quicktime plugin).
I learned my lesson and it will take a LOT of experience with a version of Windows that isn't total crap (maybe Vista but I'm not hopeful) to get me to use a Windows laptop again, by Dell or any other manufacturer that can't run OS X.
So assuming putting in a Core 2 Duo is about $100 (that's what the option costs on the Dell site), a DVD burner about $50, and addional 512 MB RAM about $50, you're still talking at least $300 difference if you could build a MacBook and a 1405 with the same parts.
So yes, Dells are cheaper...but...I would argue that my MacBook with OS X *is* worth the significan price difference!!
I bought a "multimedia" HP laptop earlier this year and I ended up selling it within a few months. I was happy with my purchase for about the first 2 *weeks*, but then random quirks just started appearing. And I don't think it's spyware or viruses (though having to worry about those is bad enough), I think it's just that Windows sucks! If you're an advanced user and are installing/uninstalling software all the time (I'm a computer programmer and have experience with MANY versions of Windows, Unix, Linux, and Mac OS), you're just bound to get errors like "could not find DLL" or crap like that. The worst are the ones where it seems some artifact or inconsistency was left on your system and nothing short of a clean OS reinstall seems to fix it.
...so to make a long story short, I in fact reformat my hard drive and do a clean install of Windows XP on my HP - so I could sell it! Sold it for hundreds less than I had purchased it less than 3 months earlier, but I used the money to buy a MacBook and I've been happy ever since. I've had my MacBook for I guess close to 6 months now, with NO problems whatsoever, beyond the quirks of trying to get my Mac to work in a Windows world (so for example WMV files wouldn't really play on my Mac until Flip4Mac finally released a Universal Binary version of their WMV Quicktime plugin).
I learned my lesson and it will take a LOT of experience with a version of Windows that isn't total crap (maybe Vista but I'm not hopeful) to get me to use a Windows laptop again, by Dell or any other manufacturer that can't run OS X.
Your tone just makes me got to reply.
Define the value of a Mac. $100 extra? Or $200? Or $300? Or 10%? Or 20%? 50%? Or even 100%?
For me, it's worth paying a little more just to be able to run osx and apps that only run on osx.
25% of a Macbook?
Try 50%. $852 is in Singaporean dollars. The baseline Macbook in Singapore would set you back $1886, and you need to be a student before Apple would even consider cutting into their margins a "little", because their margins are not high enough
Is it smaller and lighter?
Macs are pretty heavy you know? Think Sony Vaios. They've actually launched a new line that costs in the range of 1000 EUR (which is MB price range btw, in Europe that is), and offers similar specs for extra thin and light. Oh, and a cool magnesium alloy casing, something that Apple can't even put into the MBP for an extra 100% more.
MacOS may be nice, but why is it that it comes with so many forced choices that are shoved down our throats?
You guys talk as though MacOS is a discrete entity that come intrinsically with each Mac, it is not. In fact the only reason this is so is because of the existence of a Big Brother chip that comes with each Intel Mac.
In short? Sorry, but it seems to me that to use MacOS not only are we restricted to a smaller range of hardware, but a poorer quality set of choices. Now I don't mind if Macs are built like tanks, use high quality/elegant looking/durable materials in their contruction, doesn't come with "Rev A" bugs (which nobody talks about in the PC world, due to the fact that other manufacturers don't think the world of themselves with all that secrecy and actually *gasp* use test their products with user groups!), I wouldn't mind paying the extra price premium.
What do we have now?
Slower machines
Costs as much as 40% more - which I don't mind! But read the above point again.
Damages easily like ass - It's true, in our college reviews the MB is said to be easily scratchable and the MBP is described as being extremely heavy compared to the competition. Oh, and if you want a real actual figure comparison, the MBP weights 2.51kg while the Thinkpad T60 weights in at only 2.1kg. I am discounting the fact that the T60 is a laptop you can actually drop here, unlike the MBP which will probably look like a scrap metal after
Of course I am not talking about throwing MBPs around, but ever travel? There are some posts on these very forums about:
Macbooks getting deep scratches all over from rubber flaps when it enters an X-Ray machine
Same with Macbook Pros when a TSA officer wearing a ring picks it up for inspection.
Nevermind the fact that a single scratch/dent on your MBP will reduce its value at the time of resale to... that of a Dell! Ironic isn't it?
Hello? Are these computers designed to look pretty or designed to be practical?
At the end of the day you can say what you want, you never had choice, you are too afraid to accept the notion of a choice. As a PC user I had plenty of choice, likewise I don't find Apple's offerings good enough (ie: not fit) for me to give up my choice either. They may be pretty good, but certainly far from perfect.
milo said:
Define the value of a Mac. $100 extra? Or $200? Or $300? Or 10%? Or 20%? 50%? Or even 100%?
For me, it's worth paying a little more just to be able to run osx and apps that only run on osx.
milo said:
25% of a Macbook?
Try 50%. $852 is in Singaporean dollars. The baseline Macbook in Singapore would set you back $1886, and you need to be a student before Apple would even consider cutting into their margins a "little", because their margins are not high enough
milo said:
Is it smaller and lighter?
Macs are pretty heavy you know? Think Sony Vaios. They've actually launched a new line that costs in the range of 1000 EUR (which is MB price range btw, in Europe that is), and offers similar specs for extra thin and light. Oh, and a cool magnesium alloy casing, something that Apple can't even put into the MBP for an extra 100% more.
MacOS may be nice, but why is it that it comes with so many forced choices that are shoved down our throats?
You guys talk as though MacOS is a discrete entity that come intrinsically with each Mac, it is not. In fact the only reason this is so is because of the existence of a Big Brother chip that comes with each Intel Mac.
In short? Sorry, but it seems to me that to use MacOS not only are we restricted to a smaller range of hardware, but a poorer quality set of choices. Now I don't mind if Macs are built like tanks, use high quality/elegant looking/durable materials in their contruction, doesn't come with "Rev A" bugs (which nobody talks about in the PC world, due to the fact that other manufacturers don't think the world of themselves with all that secrecy and actually *gasp* use test their products with user groups!), I wouldn't mind paying the extra price premium.
What do we have now?
Slower machines
Costs as much as 40% more - which I don't mind! But read the above point again.
Damages easily like ass - It's true, in our college reviews the MB is said to be easily scratchable and the MBP is described as being extremely heavy compared to the competition. Oh, and if you want a real actual figure comparison, the MBP weights 2.51kg while the Thinkpad T60 weights in at only 2.1kg. I am discounting the fact that the T60 is a laptop you can actually drop here, unlike the MBP which will probably look like a scrap metal after
Of course I am not talking about throwing MBPs around, but ever travel? There are some posts on these very forums about:
Macbooks getting deep scratches all over from rubber flaps when it enters an X-Ray machine
Same with Macbook Pros when a TSA officer wearing a ring picks it up for inspection.
Nevermind the fact that a single scratch/dent on your MBP will reduce its value at the time of resale to... that of a Dell! Ironic isn't it?
Hello? Are these computers designed to look pretty or designed to be practical?
At the end of the day you can say what you want, you never had choice, you are too afraid to accept the notion of a choice. As a PC user I had plenty of choice, likewise I don't find Apple's offerings good enough (ie: not fit) for me to give up my choice either. They may be pretty good, but certainly far from perfect.
trueheart78 said:
Yes, I own a Mini, I bought my parents another Mini. I am in the market for a C2D MBP. I will get a Clovertown MP. I recommend Macs to everyone who I know isn't computer literate.
That said I will never get an iMac ever, in my opinion that's the stupidest computer ever.
Your point being?
Just because I actually am capable of formulating an opinion and is capable of expressing critique against *gasp* Apple?
Just because I am not drowning in koolaid like some here?
Seriously.
generik said:
Fine...buy a PC, and never look back...if you like Windows XP or Linux of some type thats fine, atleast you tried OS X, if you think the cons aren't worth the pros of a Mac, very well.. get a PC. Just stop filling this Macforums with PC stuff...most of use here are happy with our computers of choice(or know what we want and plan to buy it one day) if you want a PC, go find a PC forum and tell everyone how great they are. Or stay at MR, just don't go around campaining for PCs, its a Mac board.
I said I was just curious - I'm new to the forums and I like to have background on what people say. That's all.
Edit: Dude, calm down - can't I ask a simple question out fo curiosity? By the time I replied you responded like you had been attacked. Read my posts throughout this thread and generate your opinion of me.
Edit: Dude, calm down - can't I ask a simple question out fo curiosity? By the time I replied you responded like you had been attacked. Read my posts throughout this thread and generate your opinion of me.
bearbo said:
I'm really not seeing this 4x price anywhere. But to be fair, it probably does cost a lot of development to fit the contents of a 2" HP into a 1" MBP.
jamesi said:
....right. We are all aware that Dells are cheaper to buy. That doesn't really prove anything about whether or not I should buy a Dell.
If I wanted the cheapest deal on everything, I wouldn't have bought a Saab, I wouldn't buy Abercrombie & Fitch, I wouldn't buy Oberweiss milk, I wouldn't be attending a private university, I wouldn't buy the brightest white paper for my printers, and I most certainly wouldn't buy a Macintosh.
generik said:
No, you're not *just* formulating your opinion. You start ten threads a day about how we're all idiots because we don't share your opinion. Buy your PC and get out of here if you feel that way!
zap2 said:
Am I campaigning about PC stuff? Read my posts again. Where did I campaign anything about PC stuff?
Like I said, I like OSX.
But pray tell, does MacOS X has a system requirement that says:
Must be run on an easily cosmetically marred Apple branded computer?
Did it? Please answer that, it is a yes and no question.
Similarly does it have a requirement that it needs to be run on a...
Mobile computer equipped with a Core Duo (not Core 2 Duo) processor
Answer that question again.
Are Apple's offerings that perfect? Completely flawless?
Answer this question too please.
generik said:
IMHO, over the past 20 years Macs have proven to be the absolute best computers money could buy me, and just because this year there have been *some* problems with MBPs (my Mom's MBP works perfectly fine), a totally new model with a totally new processor BTW, doesn't mean I'm going to dismiss Apple as worthless overpriced crap.
So, no, no computer is perfect. Apples are as close as you can get in MY opinion. So I'm going to continue to buy them thank you.
So why don't you answer these questions that you keep ignoring:
Why don't you buy a PC.
Why do you keep posting on these forums?
Why are you obsessed with trying to make us see everything your way?
generik said:
Does OS X need to run on Mac hardware? No...but does it run very well because of it..yes. Apple only has to make it work with Mac hardware, it makes my computer work very well. On my PC, I had trouble Gateway would says its MS's Windows that messed up, and MS would say Gateway's hardware screwed up. With Mac there is no run around, it simple works, or you go to ONE company to have it fixed. It makes thinks easier on me, and thats all I want.
As for Core 2 Duo, its not as thought Apple is not planning to ship the laptop line with it, they are going to, so wait a little, and I'm sure it will be here. Would your rather they had said "here it is, but it ships in 2 months" or "here it is, buy it today"? And not to mention how fast Core Duo MacBook/MBP came out, Apple can't always get the new chips first.
And as for Apple's line up being perfect? No, no computer maker's line up is perfect, if it was, they would stop updating stuff. Computers will never be perfect because new things come out each year.
And answering Yes/No to a question is stupid, and small minded, because you would never get the whole picture.
The first Mac in my house turned me into an Apple user for life...it had made me want to have a nice computer, XP was crap for me. OS X is well worth the cost of it, and its much easier to be creative on for me...I can blow away anyone in creating anything when I use Keynote and when they use PowerPoint, same for Windows Movie maker vs iMovie. Software makes a computer, if I have to pay more to have a good time on my computer so be it. And when you look at high end Macs, they are cheaper then a Dell
dpaanlka said:
The difference here is a Saab is definitely better performing than say.. a Honda, gives a way smoother ride, better performance.
You buy Abercrombie & Fitch because clothes are meant to look stylish, which in your perception Abercrombie & Fitch does well.
You may have certain believes about Oberweiss milk, such as it is produced in more organic farms.
Same with private University, it is more acredited. Would you go to a private university with a poorer reputation amongst hirers than a state institution?
I will skip paper.
Tell me now then, why do people buy a Mac? MacOSX isn't it? And perhaps for a wee bit of vanity in wanting to get a more stylish computer. Because I don't see their reliability and quality being what they should you know... and please don't tell me about their after sales support, provided between Apple themselves and their unaffliated resalers.
dpaanlka said:
Correction. I am formulating my opinion. However some users here see it as their god given right to jump to Apple's defence when someone criticises their favourite computer company, the same who begins posts with emotionally laced/cutie posts like:
"My MBP is sick
" <-- As though a Mac is a human being"I am sure Apple is aware of this... and are doing everything they can to make it right..."
"(So-and-so expected update) failed to materialise... I am sure something super is in store for us from Apple!"
You see, the difference here is in order to make assertions and statements such as these, you need to have implicit trust in Apple. Trust that Apple actually cares about your interests.
Hahaha. Is that a good joke or what?
I am just taking a more realistic approach, Apple only cares about their interests. They don't release a new innovation for your sake, they do it to capture market share. They don't fix your computer because of their legal obligations, they do it because of possible bad publicity!
See the difference?
And yes, I find my perception of Apple better explains questions like why someone can send a computer in for servicing a zillion times before it finally get fixed, because it costs them money, which goes against their interests. Duh, see? They will try to do whatever they can to discredit your complaint, and if ultimately they find that you are just too clever to be manipulated, they fix it for you.
See? Is that not true?
Stop trolling..just buy a computer, hate it or love it, then buy another one, which one? Base it on if you liked you last one.
We like Macs here, why? Well we are have are reasons, I doubt your making anyone NOT want a Mac.
We like Macs here, why? Well we are have are reasons, I doubt your making anyone NOT want a Mac.
zap2 said:
I beg to differ. A yes/no response reduces the amount of unnecessarily chaff. When you are confronted with a yes/no response it does forces you to reevaluate your perceptions and viewpoints, no?
zap2 said:
Perhaps so, without a doubt I can say that the Mac Pro is definitely a high quality, high performance computer. Come the time when I am confident of getting a good bang for my buck (ie: clovertown) I will be sure to snag these babies up.
Perception of value may differ though, hey, obviously some Mac users don't see any value in having the ability to tinker/service their own computers. I for one do not send my machines for servicing and have it away for extended periods, I need my machines to do work. My computers are also my DVR/music player/VoIP client, they are important.
Hence I find some properties of Apple's design incompatible with my beliefs on how a computer should be.
Would you buy a car with a bonett that is welded shut? What if it looks very nice, with value smooth curves where the lid would otherwise be, having an extremely clean effeminate design? Now, why not?
So transferring that point over from that hypothetical car to a computer, well I can see the Mini's function in having such a tiny case design, in fact these machines can easily be retired to run as a small webserver or something, likewise I think the Macbook's hard drive slot and memory slot latches are *simply* innovation at its finest, the Mac Pro is what it is, a beast in a beauty's body.
Now tell me what's so great about the Macbook Pro, and the iMac. So, here is my conundrum, I want the Macbook Pro feature set (ie: matt screen, discrete GPU, backlit keyboards) but I don't want to quirks (ie: fragile design, not HD slot). Ditto for the iMac. It is basically a desktop. It is slim! Yes. Is it practical? No. If you so much as need a bigger hard drive you'd have to strip the front bezel off... and start from there. Why is that?
See the downsides of not having choice?
generik said:
Perhaps you have had bad support experience. Perhaps you have had bad build quality experience. Perhaps some others on this forum have as well. But you're making a terrible judgement if you think that the problems with Apple products and service posted on this forum represents the entire Apple customer experience. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
People don't post threads or write articles about how their computer works exactly as expected. That is not news-wrothy.
I am 100% satisfied with all of the Apple products that have ever passed through my house. When a hard drive failed in a PowerBook, Apple had it fixed up in no time at all, it was a breeze. All I had to do was drive to my local Apple store and give it to them. Unlike a Toshiba laptop that needed service, which I had to (ugh) ship to Toshiba.
I still believe that Apple products are in the top end of quality. There are plenty of rather new computers that are either in my house, or owned by friends and family, and they all work exactly as expected.
generik said:"My MBP is sick
"I am sure Apple is aware of this... and are doing everything they can to make it right..."
"(So-and-so expected update) failed to materialise... I am sure something super is in store for us from Apple!"
High price tag things often garner effecting from their buyers. I always hear people refer to their expensive BMWs and Saabs and Lexuses as if they were people. I think that is perfectly normal. Some people might not, but some people do. It's not that hard to believe. Same with boats, motorcycles, etc... Why does that offend you so much?
Notice that nobody refers to their Cavalier as a person, much the same as nobody refers to their Dell as a person.
generik said:
NO! The iMac and MacBook is not practical for you. Stop saying everyone has the same expectations as you. They dont!!!
The iMac is perfect for a lot of people!
It is not Apples job to make every possible style of computer to suit your personal needs.
Heck, I guess I can just flip the coin then. Why doesn't dell make a computer with the thin profile of the iMac? It really isn't practical for me to have huge giant computers! Why can't they make a thin 17" laptop with a backlit keyboard? Their offerings do not meet my requirements at all! A Dell would be totally impractical for me!
generik said:
generik, Apple is an innovation based company, and as such it will charge a premium because it has to cover its R&D costs. Apple will never compete with Dell for price, nor should it in my opinion. It sells the Macs at a higher price because it knows that Macs offer unique features that other computer makers don't have: OS X, iLife (except for iTunes), etc.
Besides the software I can also think of at least 2 features on my MacBook that aren't offered by any other computer: the "MagSafe" power connector and the 2-finger scrolling and right click (which for the first time in Apple's history actually give Apple a reason to justify not having a right mouse button - I love 2-finger!!!!). Even if 2-finger scrolling and right click is offered by some other manufacturer out there, it certainly hasn't been widely adopted, and certainly not by Dell.
So it's more difficult to quantify how much an innovative product is worth to you, since by its very definition it has *no* exact equivalent. For me, I would say that premium is fairly large, because not only did I pay at least a $200 premium for my MacBook (I bought it before Core 2 Duo was available), but I also lost several hundred dollars by selling my relatively new HP (see post above). And yet even with that large premium I have NO buyers regret after 6 months with my MacBook, whereas I had buyers regret within a couple weeks of buying an HP laptop...
I agree Apple's computer line-up is not flawless..however I think most users can find a Mac to serve their needs. If you want to upgrade, get a Mac Pro, might cost a little more but get the 2.0Ghz Model.
As for the MacBook Pro and iMac, the iMac G5/CD/C2D is amazing. Its perfect for people who never upgrade their computers but need a good amount of power. I had a G5 iMac, and it was amazingly perfect for most computer users. The MacBook Pro was really a PowerBook, with Intel and a built in iSight. Apple want a iIntel laptop and iIntel desktop, so they rushed it, so they would start getting intel Macs. Not to say the MBP/PB is a bad design, but I'd bet we see a MacBook like design(easy upgrade or RAM/Harddrive, and Magnetic to close it) when C2D comes along.
As for the MacBook Pro and iMac, the iMac G5/CD/C2D is amazing. Its perfect for people who never upgrade their computers but need a good amount of power. I had a G5 iMac, and it was amazingly perfect for most computer users. The MacBook Pro was really a PowerBook, with Intel and a built in iSight. Apple want a iIntel laptop and iIntel desktop, so they rushed it, so they would start getting intel Macs. Not to say the MBP/PB is a bad design, but I'd bet we see a MacBook like design(easy upgrade or RAM/Harddrive, and Magnetic to close it) when C2D comes along.
*giggles* your all funny. yip macs work great i gave up a Athlon X2 3800 for my iMac G3 cos my iMac runs Photoshop CS2 better. I would never buy a dell as they have and still are difficult to maintain. Even running Linux witch yes is better than both OSX and Windows in stability, Dell computers still dont cut it. If i required a PC i would never buy a Dell or a HP cos they often use crap like PC chips motherboards. I would home build a PC properly with that new Gigabyte board that has all solid capacitors and a Core 2 Duo. Also of note Dells are only cheeper at the base level, they compare poorly to other manufacturers at the mid, high, and workstation class with the macpro currently being the best deal going for any power user.
Oh and every thread i have seen the OP post in or start seems to have the same consensus, it is similar to John S that was kicked out of X-bit Labs for always flaming AMD users for not using Intel chips and this was at a point when the rather pathetic Pentium 4 was facing of ageist the Athlon 64.
Oh and every thread i have seen the OP post in or start seems to have the same consensus, it is similar to John S that was kicked out of X-bit Labs for always flaming AMD users for not using Intel chips and this was at a point when the rather pathetic Pentium 4 was facing of ageist the Athlon 64.
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