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Not true. A phone may be examined without a warrant if there are extreme exigent circumstances (a person's life is in imminent danger, an imminent terrorist attack, etc), or, if you consent to the search. Also, a search warrant application requires specifics concerning the evidence sought. Fishing expeditions are not allowed. Unless of course law enforcement is ok with gathered information being tossed out as evidence at trial.

Again, if you need to

Warrants are routinely issued for "all information within <subject's> phone, including but not limited to machine readable data, previously erased data, and all personal communications," or something to that effect. There have been challenges to evidence obtained but although courts have ruled those scope to be too broad they've also allowed the evidence to be entered even after refined scoping of the original warrant. I think you and I will probably have philosophical differences on this issue and I'll admit I want to see technical barriers because I don't want to trust to human nature when we're now carrying out full lives in our pockets. As much as I dread some test cases coming before SCOTUS I think we need them too to solid the forth amendment application to modern devices.
 
What if you're an actor and you're in costume and reach for your phone oh yeah I've got a gorilla mask on I can't unlock my phone. How frustrating it will be to have remember to turn it off or remember a passcode.

Well, the now underserved actors in gorilla masks who somehow can’t remember a passcode even though having one, and regularly inputting one, is a prerequisite for using TouchID are surely going to devastate Apple’s bottom line this year.
 
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Warrants are routinely issued for "all information within <subject's> phone, including but not limited to machine readable data, previously erased data, and all personal communications," or something to that effect. There have been challenges to evidence obtained but although courts have ruled those scope to be too broad they've also allowed the evidence to be entered even after refined scoping of the original warrant. I think you and I will probably have philosophical differences on this issue and I'll admit I want to see technical barriers because I don't want to trust to human nature when we're now carrying out full lives in our pockets. As much as I dread some test cases coming before SCOTUS I think we need them too to solid the forth amendment application to modern devices.

So you would be OK with, for example, Bernard Madoff and his associates being arrested for securities fraud, money laundering, SEC, and other crimes he was accused of, but not having law enforcement being able to examine his phone and other electronic devices for evidence (records, notes, messages, emails, photos, voicemails, transactions, etc) supporting his crimes?
 
So you would be OK with, for example, Bernard Madoff and his associates being arrested for securities fraud, money laundering, SEC, and other crimes he was accused of, but not having law enforcement being able to examine his phone and other electronic devices for evidence (records, notes, messages, emails, photos, voicemails, transactions, etc) supporting his crimes?

Yes.
 
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Without TouchID, I just really don't get how this is going to work with ApplePay. The positioning of card readers in most stores will only make holding the phone in a way that is close enough to be read but at the right angle to also capture your face so awkward.

Just don't get it. Unless I'm missing something.
 
Without TouchID, I just really don't get how this is going to work with ApplePay. The positioning of card readers in most stores will only make holding the phone in a way that is close enough to be read but at the right angle to also capture your face so awkward.

Just don't get it. Unless I'm missing something.

I think you’re missing two things 1) it will likely be capable of registering your face at pretty oblique angles and 2) in the same way you can unlock Apple Pay today and it stays that way until the screen goes off or a timeout is reached, you will be able to do so with Face ID. You don’t actually have to do the authentication at the same time as its on the reader and making the payment. It’s not like the need to pay is a sudden surprise. Whether I’m paying cash, card or Apple Pay I typically have my method of payment ready as the transaction is coming to an end to expediate things for me, and for people behind me.
 
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How does Face ID work for people who wear burkas?
It's like asking how a person following religious dietary law can eat at a restaurant. Quite simply, they'll eat at restaurants that follow their dietary laws, and skip the rest.

Facial ID may not peer through a burka, but to someone who follows an orthodoxy, that's not a big deal. It's part of the choice that comes with adopting/following an orthodoxy. Those who follow orthodoxies often look at these differences as blessings - the benefits of following the true faith and the lifestyle that comes with it are not considered burdensome.

Orthodoxies are constantly assessing changes to society and technology and deciding whether they can adapt to/adopt those changes. In the case of the burka... It's only worn when out in public. Facial ID could be used in the home, passcode when outside the home. However, if the infrared scanning is able to "see" under the burka, will there be religious leaders who decide that facial ID violates the spirit of wearing the burka in the first place? It seems likely.

There are also orthodoxies that consider (or have considered) photography of people to be blasphemous. How does a selfie camera fit into those beliefs?

I don't think anyone uses 100% of the features of any computing device. We pick and choose. We skip those things that have no place in our lives. For some of us, that's just a matter of what does or doesn't have utility. For others, there may be ethical/religious beliefs that also affect those decisions. So what?
 
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As far as I can tell this does nothing but harm the user experience. TouchID is pretty much perfect. The physical home button is awesome and makes using the phone at lot more efficient. With TouchID I can take the phone out of my pocket and by the time I glimpse at it from any angle the phone is unlocked. How will this work when wearing glasses of any kind? Probably need to save those images just like different prints. Also probably need to look directly at the camera before anything happens.

I guess I can't blame them too much. They need to follow the newest fads. A while back that was phablets. Currently it's bezel-less designs. There is only so much you can do to a rectangular screen and they need to change something to get people to upgrade. Luckily for them people will buy whatever they put out, even if it's a downgrade in user experience.
 
I'm sure Apple has thought this out, but I'm a little worried. Let's suppose I'm standing in line, and the dude before me positions his phone in such a way that it sees my face during purchase. How do they prevent charging my bank account, instead of his?
 
I'm sure Apple has thought this out, but I'm a little worried. Let's suppose I'm standing in line, and the dude before me positions his phone in such a way that it sees my face during purchase. How do they prevent charging my bank account, instead of his?

Nothing would happen. His phone wouldn’t recognise your face.
 
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I'm sure Apple has thought this out, but I'm a little worried. Let's suppose I'm standing in line, and the dude before me positions his phone in such a way that it sees my face during purchase. How do they prevent charging my bank account, instead of his?

You think your face on someone else’s phone would somehow charge your bank account?

Deary me.
 
As far as I can tell this does nothing but harm the user experience. TouchID is pretty much perfect. The physical home button is awesome and makes using the phone at lot more efficient. With TouchID I can take the phone out of my pocket and by the time I glimpse at it from any angle the phone is unlocked. How will this work when wearing glasses of any kind? Probably need to save those images just like different prints. Also probably need to look directly at the camera before anything happens.

I guess I can't blame them too much. They need to follow the newest fads. A while back that was phablets. Currently it's bezel-less designs. There is only so much you can do to a rectangular screen and they need to change something to get people to upgrade. Luckily for them people will buy whatever they put out, even if it's a downgrade in user experience.

People thought horses were perfect, in their day, and automobiles were fads.

The thing is, they weren't (and aren't), and the same is true for Touch ID. Sure, you like it, you trust it, it works well for your needs. You have trouble imagining better. No problem. You'll wait and see. Most likely, you were not enthusiastic about Touch ID when it was announced, either. The proof, as they say, was in the pudding.

I'd put Facial ID into a different class than bezel-less designs. The bezel-thing is driven by the notion that the phone doesn't have to be larger than the screen dimensions - either the screen can grow to match the dimensions of the phone, or the phone can shrink to match the dimensions of the display. Not such a big deal in the big scheme of things.

3D Facial ID, on the other hand, is driven by a variety of technologies that go beyond mere identification. The technology used to judge a face from various angles is the same needed for AR - to sense the position of the camera/display in relation to a 3D world. Facial ID is just the tip of the AR iceberg. AR is not just about game play, or superimposing animated characters on a screen (those may be judged to be somewhat faddish). It's also about measuring and interpreting a 3D world, rather than artificially flattening it to distorted 2D. It'll include using hand gestures to control the computer, rather than a physical mouse or trackpad. It includes photographing a room or object and immediately converting it to an accurate floor plan or engineering drawing. There's a lot of potential here.

The fundamentals of biometric ID are little different, whether we're talking about fingerprints, facial recognition, iris scan, or handwriting analysis. In all cases, the system is reading specific, identifiable points that have a geometric relationship to other points - it's a relatively abstract map, not a fully-representational photograph. On a fingerprint, iris, or signature, those points are measured in two dimensions. 3D facial recognition adds another dimension, making it potentially far more accurate. In all cases, the baseline scans taken during setup collect far more data points than are needed to positively identify the individual during a routine ID scan. If someone happens to be wearing glasses during baseline scan, there will still be plenty of useful data points available if the person is later scanned without glasses.

The superiority of one biometric method over another is not a matter of fundamentals, but of the quality of execution. Any given implementation of biometric scanning may suck, or it may be brilliant. If you think Apple's implementation of Touch ID is brilliant, is there a reason to believe its implementation of 3D Facial ID would necessarily suck?
 
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This thread is at times bordering on hilarious. Thanks all around.

And all the people using Touch ID and fearing that cops will "compel" them to surrender their fingerprints or some nebulous entity will scan their fingers while asleep should just scan their nipples or toes to be used with Touch ID. You know, like any sensible human being would.

Maybe the same thing could be achieved by drawing a smiley face around ones belly button and using that for Face ID?
 
What if you're an actor and you're in costume and reach for your phone oh yeah I've got a gorilla mask on I can't unlock my phone. How frustrating it will be to have remember to turn it off or remember a passcode.

The actor will also have gorilla gloves on. Oops, TouchId wouldn't work either.
 
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What if you're an actor and you're in costume and reach for your phone oh yeah I've got a gorilla mask on I can't unlock my phone. How frustrating it will be to have remember to turn it off or remember a passcode.
So, say you're an actor in a gorilla mask and your iPhone rings while on stage or in the middle of a take... I think entering your passcode is the least of the problems. If answering the phone is part of the show, you turn off the passcode altogether. If it's not part of the show... "You'll never work in this business again!"

Just like a selfie camera. Who wanted that? Nobody.
Really? When I visited the NY World's Fair in 1964, AT&T was demonstrating "Picture Phone." Wow! Someday we'd be able to see the people we're talking to! Lots of people wanted it, nobody could afford it. Well, someday is today. You can't have "Picture Phone" without a selfie camera.

Jobs would be appalled.
Really? There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, considering selfie cameras (and FaceTime) were introduced to Apple's customers by Steve himself. Facial recognition has been in development and use at Apple long before today - it's been part of Apple's photography apps for many years.

All this Steve stuff is no different than saying, "God is on my side," regardless of what side you happen to be on. Since God (or a dead man) isn't about to contradict that claim, it's an easy claim to make.
 
I can't wait to unlock my phone in a dark car, bar, airplane, etc. and get blinded by the forward facing flash that will be needed to see my face.
 
I guess some people will find this useful. I don’t have any interest if it works the way people are speculating it will. Seems like it is going to be a PITA vs. touchID even if it works perfectly.
 
locking or disabling your phone by "pressing the power button 5 times" is a silly and naive oversimplification. Most people (when accosted by government minions or criminals alike) are not going to be given the time or luxury to dig their phone out of their purse or pocket and press the power button 5 times.
For a female getting it from a bag they needn’t ever even notice, for a guy you just do it as you are getting it out. It’s actually trivially easy. Option 2 is just use a passcode though and give up the convenience for security.
 
FaceID is going to be AT LEAST on the same level as Windows Hello. Indeed, analysts are suggesting that Apple's implementation of the technology is much more advanced.

Windows Hello is damn fast (faster than Touch ID), works in the dark, has not been breaked so far, distinguish between identical twins, doesn't care if you wear hats, glasses or if you change hair and beard style.

So why are people still asking the same stupid questions?? The technology is already here, commercialy available and proven to be working, even not considering the likely Apples's improvements!
 
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