Do you like Liquid Glass on Mac?

[svenmany]

I have very poor vision. The sidebar (as in Finder and Safari) causes me trouble. I often think there are more windows open since the sidebar is rendered within the containing window, overlayed with a border around it. When I glance quickly, the sidebar looks like it represents a window slightly offset from another window behind it. It's only an issue because I often have a lot of windows open. Three open Safari windows seeming to be six is a nagging mental load.

I also seem to be having a harder time finding spots to use to drag windows around. The loss the title bar is not new to Tahoe, but it's impacting me more than I remember and I'm not sure why. Happily, most of my work day is in non-Apple applications that still have title bars.

 

[Laggy]

I am using windows and macOS simultaneously at work. Windows has always been bad with design I guess due to legacy software and design of the system itself. Mac has always been right with macOS design but now with Tahoe, everything feels not right. I mean, do we need a reliable system or a system that is just a big mess? I wish I had option to disable all the animations, all the glossiness, these icons with fog etc

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

I have very poor vision. The sidebar (as in Finder and Safari) causes me trouble.

This is sad to hear. Apple makes a lot of effort provide accessibility options in various other ways, yet the primary visual interface has taken a huge step back for people like yourself.

 

[rehkram]

As we enterprise s/w house package devs used to say to counter the worst excesses of the marketing department:

"It's all about the steak, not the sizzle".

Sounds like Tahoe's UI is a triumph of form over function to some degree.
And/or maybe immature-, or even total "lack of", management.

Another truism that might apply is "Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should".

I'm also wondering if Apple painted themselves into a corner by changing the major version number to "26", and felt pressured to do a rush job and get it out there before 2026 rolled around.

It's all looks very bizarre yet strangely familiar from where I'm sitting.

 

[navaira]

Sounds like Tahoe's UI is a triumph of form over function to some degree.

Not even that, because the form is awful. If it’s a triumph of something, I don’t know what that something is.

 

[rehkram]

Not even that, because the form is awful. If it’s a triumph of something, I don’t know what that something is.

Too much discrete hard coding perhaps? That would explain the randomness of the errors. Fix for that requires developing, in an object oriented manner, common classes to be used going forward throughout the system.

 

[loby]

Too much discrete hard coding perhaps? That would explain the randomness of the errors. Fix for that requires developing, in an object oriented manner, common classes to be used going forward throughout the system.

Do you think maybe they are letting A.I. do the coding?

 

[rehkram]

Do you think maybe they are letting A.I. do the coding?

Nope! Feels like discrete coding by multiple individuals to me.

Much as AI worries me on many levels, automation would have been a smarter solution. I'm speaking as someone who wrote a package to find- and convert a database's YY years to YYYY in 1999, which also found- and modified the entire application code base to accommodate said changes before year 2000 hit.

Tahoe, and any future UI changes, could, and should, be done by a code generator. Would require some work up front.

 

[loby]

Nope! Feels like discrete coding by multiple individuals to me.

Much as AI worries me on many levels, automation would have been a smarter solution. I'm speaking as someone who wrote a package to find- and convert a database's YY years to YYYY in 1999, which also found- and modified the entire application code base to accommodate said changes before year 2000 hit.

Tahoe, and any future UI changes, could, and should, be done by a code generator. Would require some work up front.

I worked on the Y2K problem also back in the day. People laughed at it, but there were some concerns on certain systems and industries. I remember being on call while everyone was partying on New Years. Went to sleep that night hoping I would not wake up to a mess on January 1st.

Yes..macOS Tahoe probably has too many hands without continuity in their coding between them. A.I. should be used to bring some continuity, as each coder has their way and style to do the same things.

Too many hands in the pot may be the issue also with the querky glitchy stuff we are experiencing.

 

[TumbleDryer]

I have very poor vision. The sidebar (as in Finder and Safari) causes me trouble. I often think there are more windows open since the sidebar is rendered within the containing window, overlayed with a border around it. When I glance quickly, the sidebar looks like it represents a window slightly offset from another window behind it. It's only an issue because I often have a lot of windows open. Three open Safari windows seeming to be six is a nagging mental load.

I also seem to be having a harder time finding spots to use to drag windows around. The loss the title bar is not new to Tahoe, but it's impacting me more than I remember and I'm not sure why. Happily, most of my work day is in non-Apple applications that still have title bars.

I have very good vision but this actually caught me out the other day. The overlayed finder/safari side bar that, depending on what is behind the window, drastically changes in appearance which can make the sidebar look like a completely separate window.

I was in Safari and had opened the side bar as I had accidentally added a reading list item (a bug bear of mine with Safari). This is easily done with the way adding things like favourites is done in MacOS. Sometimes I just want to drag an address to my favourites bar but instead it registers as a click and zooms off to the reading list I have hidden because of the hideousness of it in Tahoe.

Anyhoo... I opened the Sidebar to try and find where this thing had shot off to and deleted it. Then because the sidebar encompasses the MacOS standard traffic lights for window management my initial reaction to close the sidebar was to click the red traffic light which obviously closed all of Safari. The way it's designed makes it look like the traffic lights control that particular side bar. And don't get me started on the horrible animation when the side bar slides in and out in Safari.

Lack of title bar space for dragging is definitely a thing and also I've mentioned it before that the window resizing icon is very inconsistent as to whether it changes so you can drag and resize a window. It takes 2, 3 or 4 goes to resize a window sometimes. The whole experience of using Tahoe is a big step backwards made up of LOADS of tiny ill thought out processes. It slows you down just trying to do simple things and is a very frustrating experience that ugly to look at as well.

Tahoe is the first ever MacOS version I've actively disliked because I have to fight with it to get my work done.

 

[TumbleDryer]

Another annoying thing this time with Mail in MacOS. I use old school column view in Mail as it makes much better use of space than the regurgitated iOS layout which is ironically for smaller screens.

Anyhoo... I've lost count of the amount of times Ive unintentionally reordered my emails due to the fact there is no longer a divider between the much smaller space in what used to be the title bar and headings for emails (From and Subject). Another example where you need to waste brain power and concentration making sure you click in a very specific spot to achieve the most simple of tasks. In my case to move the window.

Instead of having the whole title bar to grab and move a window with we are now limited to clicking in the now TINY 1 inch space between the inbox name and the get mail button (in my example at least). But if I don't get it exact and happen to drop into the unmarked area for 'subject' I end up reordering everything in stead of grabbing the window.

Just stupid little things like this that slow you down and cause lots of little frustrations. Its so ill thought out across the board just for gimmicky unnecessary graphical rubbish.

 

[kkclstuff]

yes yes yes!

so relieved that more users are seeing it (or finally having difficulty seeing it) 😉

 

[tkermit]

Another annoying thing this time with Mail in MacOS. I use old school column view in Mail as it makes much better use of space than the regurgitated iOS layout which is ironically for smaller screens.

Anyhoo... I've lost count of the amount of times Ive unintentionally reordered my emails due to the fact there is no longer a divider between the much smaller space in what used to be the title bar and headings for emails (From and Subject). Another example where you need to waste brain power and concentration making sure you click in a very specific spot to achieve the most simple of tasks. In my case to move the window.

Instead of having the whole title bar to grab and move a window with we are now limited to clicking in the now TINY 1 inch space between the inbox name and the get mail button (in my example at least). But if I don't get it exact and happen to drop into the unmarked area for 'subject' I end up reordering everything in stead of grabbing the window.

Just stupid little things like this that slow you down and cause lots of little frustrations. Its so ill thought out across the board just for gimmicky unnecessary graphical rubbish.

Reminds me of the Music app with the new "status bar" enabled. I dare anyone to correctly predict which parts of the "title bar" are safe to grab here:

Spoiler

 

[turbineseaplane]

Reminds me of the Music app with the new "status bar" enabled. I dare anyone to correctly predict which parts of the "title bar" are safe to grab here:

View attachment 2586520

Spoiler

View attachment 2586535

I can't stand how they've butchered title bars.
Those have extremely important uses/purposes.

 

[unsui_grep]

Butchering title bars is perhaps the worst offense, but IMHO they never should've split the title bar to accommodate the iPad style sidebar in the first place. I can't remember which macOS generation made that change but it always bothered me. The title bar should encapsulate the entire window with the sidebar acting as TOC style navigation that can be toggled without disrupting the title bar and its buttons.

 

[svenmany]

I can't stand how they've butchered title bars.
Those have extremely important uses/purposes.

I remember when the industry generally started moving away from title bars; I was appalled. I remember reading about it on the Gnome website, how they loved their title bar free approach. It's not an issue for users who don't frequently move windows. I often have over a dozen windows open at a time and am constantly moving them.

So, it's been a nuisance for a while. But there's something about Tahoe that has made things worse. I was on Sequoia when I started my latest rounds of eye surgery and didn't have too many problems. But something changed with the toolbars in certain apps in Tahoe; the buttons are just more in the way.

Just this morning, since this thread got me thinking about it, I started adding spacers to make more room.

 

[JoeSilver]

I remember when the industry generally started moving away from title bars; I was appalled. I remember reading about it on the Gnome website, how they loved their title bar free approach. It's not an issue for users who don't frequently move windows. I often have over a dozen windows open at a time and am constantly moving them.

So, it's been a nuisance for a while. But there's something about Tahoe that has made things worse. I was on Sequoia when I started my latest rounds of eye surgery and didn't have too many problems. But something changed with the toolbars in certain apps in Tahoe; the buttons are just more in the way.

Just this morning, since this thread got me thinking about it, I started adding spacers to make more room.

I find grabbing a window by its titlebar cumbersome anyway. One of the things that I love about Gnome is that you don't need to carefully position the pointer on some tiny titlebar (in Gnome they are definitely not tiny anyway) and also avoid possible buttons.

From a usability perspective, and I guess, also accessibility, it's much better being able to drag a window by clicking on any points on its surface. In Gnome you can do it by pressing the Win key.
I learnt that on Mac you can do it with Ctrl + Cmd.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I find grabbing a window by its titlebar cumbersome anyway.

That's not really the point.
It's an understood convention that works and should be there.

 

[JoeSilver]

That's not really the point.
It's an understood convention that works and should be there.

Well my point is that it's much more flexible and faster being able to move a window without necessarily aiming at a small titlebar with a pointer.
I don't consider conventions sacred, certainly not these ones. Just because I learnt to use computers in the late 90s, it doesn't mean that they must never change.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

The arrow cursor (window resizing) is awful in Tahoe, in my opinion. I can’t understand what was changed to make this difference aside from the different icon, but it just feels more difficult to ‘grab’ a window edge.

 

[svenmany]

Well my point is that it's much more flexible and faster being able to move a window without necessarily aiming at a small titlebar with a pointer.
I don't consider conventions sacred, certainly not these ones. Just because I learnt to use computers in the late 90s, it doesn't mean that they must never change.

I just tried my KDE install and it doesn't have that nice convenience. I did use your input as inspiration to program Better Touch Tool so that I can just move the window with an alt-click. I'll try that for a bit and see what I think. I programmed alt-click to just be a toggle, turning on or off moving the window.

I guess the real problem is the cross-platform convention is to use the top of the window to drag and there's nothing else agreed upon. I will say that I've never had any issue with clicking on the title bar. It would never have occurred to me to want for more in the apps that still provide the space for it.

I started with computers maybe 20 years before you. So, I had my hands on windowing systems very early on. Sun workstations in the 80's was the start for me. It is hard to change, but I'm always ready to if there is something better. There were so many usability lessons learned over the decades that Apple no longer feels are important. Consistency is paramount to a user of many applications. Apple has no consistency. A consistent and easy way to move a window no matter the (mouse-based) operating system seems very important and has been lost.

 

[amancalledsun]

The arrow cursor (window resizing) is awful in Tahoe, in my opinion. I can’t understand what was changed to make this difference aside from the different icon, but it just feels more difficult to ‘grab’ a window edge.

I agree with this assessment. Especially on higher resolution displays, the target handles to actually resize a window are ridiculously small. I'm running 3360x1890 on a 32" display and they are completely impractical on Tahoe. I haven't actually pixel measured but it feels like the targets have shrunk to about 3px from the inside edge of the window, and only triggers when approaching the edge from the inside. From outside it's even worse. This was never a problem before now.

 

[svenmany]

Nope! Feels like discrete coding by multiple individuals to me.

Much as AI worries me on many levels, automation would have been a smarter solution. I'm speaking as someone who wrote a package to find- and convert a database's YY years to YYYY in 1999, which also found- and modified the entire application code base to accommodate said changes before year 2000 hit.

Tahoe, and any future UI changes, could, and should, be done by a code generator. Would require some work up front.

I suspect AI has a hand in the low quality. I read a study (apologies that I don't remember where) that said developers tend to spend more time fixing AI generated code than writing it themselves. Lazy or rushed developers won't spend the time and will use the generated code as is.

Once I used AI to implement a standard algorithm. It compiled, but it was absolute drivel. I spent an hour looking at it and realizing that it completely missed the point. I think we are in a programming period where developers will use AI to speed up their development and that will introduce a ton of bugs. Every development tool I use now offers AI assistance to me. The wisdom of when to use it is the challenge.

 

[svenmany]

I agree with this assessment. Especially on higher resolution displays, the target handles to actually resize a window are ridiculously small. I'm running 3360x1890 on a 32" display and they are completely impractical on Tahoe. I haven't actually pixel measured but it feels like the targets have shrunk to about 3px from the inside edge of the window, and only triggers when approaching the edge from the inside. From outside it's even worse. This was never a problem before now.

I actually find the resizing handles easier for me to use. I do use a larger pointer size which I set in System Settings. Have you tried to increase the size?

However, they are buggy. I played with the size in System Settings as I made this post. Then, certain applications had to be restarted for the resize handles to work again (e.g. Chrome, Eclipse).

 

[amancalledsun]

I actually find the resizing handles easier for me to use. I do use a larger pointer size which I set in System Settings. Have you tried to increase the size?

However, they are buggy. I played with the size in System Settings as I made this post. Then, certain applications had to be restarted for the resize handles to work again (e.g. Chrome, Eclipse).

No; I need the standard pointer for fidelity when mixing audio (same reason I have the higher screen resolution - more real estate for onscreen controls). It would be comical to try using a larger pointer in this scenario.